Anemone killing Cipro resistant superbug?

ThRoewer · 04/27/2020, 02:57 PM

In recent months I lost numerous anemones to something that doesn't seem curable with Cipro.

Aside from 9 BTAs I lost:

6 giganteas, among them the purple one I had for 5 years. My metallic green gig was the latest victim which went from fine to mush in less than a week.

1 magnifica - my large Maldivian mag. I treated this one for five weeks with Cipro and for a while, it looked like it may pull through but the open mouth never went away. It had some necrosis next to the mouth that improved during the Cipro treatment but got worse again after I stopped dosing Cipro. So 2 weeks after stopping Cipro treatment I decided to change antibiotics and started a second round of treatment with Septra. That's when things went downhill fast. The anemone reacted to Septra like it was a toxin to it. It started expelling its symbiotic algae and declined rapidly and was mush on day 7 of the Septra treatment.
BTW, so far I have not been successful in treating anemones with Septra - all I tried it on died and so will not use it for anemones again as they don't seem to tolerate it.

Only 3 BTAs, 2 magnificas, and one gigantea recovered so far and seem to be stable. One haddoni is still hanging on but shrunk from 8" to just 1.5".

I wonder if these losses were caused by Cipro resistant bacteria or if this might be something new.
Also interesting is that the behavior of the anemones is different than during a "normal" infection. The magnificas and giganteas didn't go through the deflating - inflating cycles you normally see but rather went somewhat limp and had their mouths out.

Aside from the huge financial loss, it is extremely frustrating and outright scary.

Has anybody else encountered something like this?

Pericyte · 04/29/2020, 03:39 PM

For starters: I’m sorry for your loss. I’ve ready many of your posts over the last few years and appreciate your insight.

From a medical field perspective: I’m shocked that they let antibiotics be bought so readily for fish/anemones. It’s great for us, but comes with long term consequences, especially from under dosing and not dosing long enough. I suspect there are fish stores that proactively run low antibiotics often if not all the time leading to possible resistance.

As for your question: Not sure if I have enough experience to weigh in, but I definitely had a magnifica that was fine through Cipro, then seemed to die as soon as I as I took it away (two weeks of dosing). Similar, never really closed its mouth, but was not deflating.

Scary reality: you could be completely right about a new superbug. Maybe a virus, who knows.

Options: maybe trying Cipro alternatives if you can get your hand on them or set up an ‘in between’ tank with a few bta clones in it, canary in a coal mine?

ThRoewer · 04/29/2020, 08:06 PM

One of the issues with treating anemones is that we still don't know for sure what is actually causing the disease. My guess would be that it is caused by one of those Vibrio species that also infect corals and cause them to bleach.

There might be other bacteria or even viruses that cause these anemone diseases. Unfortunately, there hasn't been any scientific research in anemone diseases I'm aware of. There is however a quite a bit research going on about coral diseases that might give some pointers.
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...rio&oq=coral+v
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?h...+disease&btnG=

We know that Cipro can treat this infection in anemones in most cases.
One LFS told me that Amoxicillin also works but I have not yet tried it myself.
However, I personally found Septra ineffective and actually harmful to anemones.

A problem with anemones is that they don't have a circulatory system that spreads the antibiotics inside their bodies. As long as the anemones deflate and inflate the antibiotics still get where they need to be, but anemones that don't do that because their infection is just mild could possibly harbor the infection and cause a later outbreak.
Several of the anemones I lost did fine during the first round of treatment and seemed to be doing well for a while but got sick again only a few weeks after being put back into the display tanks. And then they had slightly different symptoms that did not include the deflate/inflate cycle but rather displayed an "inverted" mouth. The second treatment round then failed with almost all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pericyte

From a medical field perspective: I’m shocked that they let antibiotics be bought so readily for fish/anemones. It’s great for us, but comes with long term consequences, especially from under dosing and not dosing long enough. I suspect there are fish stores that proactively run low antibiotics often if not all the time leading to possible resistance.

I don't think LFS run antibiotics prophylactically. It would make little sense in saltwater systems and rather cause problems. And the rather targeted use of antibiotics for ornamental fish and inverts should be far less of an issue than people not taking their prescription antibiotics all the way and disposing of leftovers in the garbage.
What is should be of concern is the widespread use of antibiotics in agriculture, and there not so much to treat diseases but rather to promote growth and as a preventive measure.

Jamie1210 · 05/26/2020, 03:30 PM

I'm probably kind of late to the party, but I wanted to know if you added something to the tank that caused all of your anemones to go downhill?

Last month, I lost the magnifica in my 40 gallon. I've had it for a year, and was healthy as a horse. I didnt add anything to my tank in months. Then, I decided to add some emerald crabs because they were on sale. The VERY NEXT day, it deflated. I thought, hmm., that's strange, I've never seen this guy deflate before, but it still looked ok. 48 hours later, mouth gaping. I took it out to treat, but it was already turning to mush.

I'm still in shock about this incidence. As for the emerald crabs? Completely healthy. Unbelievable!

Insane_Realmz · 07/20/2020, 12:41 AM

This new "cipro resistant" disease you mention, what did your nems do? What symptoms did they have?

I've run two sessions of Cipro on my Mag, once because I acquired him and I suspect vendor to store travel got him sick. The other from from snails I added to my DT that did not seem to need quarantine and boy did I pay for that mistake.

Now, my nem is sick again, but not the usual inflating/deflating cycle when they get bacteria. This time, it's completely new. His tentacles were gorgeous, long and bulbous at the times, like a show piece nem. Now, almost all of his tentacles are crinkly, like crinkle cut fries, with filaments strewn all inside of them. Its like he's rotting from the inside out. No mouth gaping, no deflation. And the tentacles are about a 5th the lengths before. These filaments slowly appeared over a couple months. The outside of the tentacles looked tattered and "burnt?". I've never seen anything like this in my 15 years of marine aquariums.

Usually when a fish gets finrot, we can see the inflamed blood vessels and sometimes cotton-like growths on the fins. I can liken my nem's tentacles to the symptoms we see on fish with finrot. There's inflammation, blood vessels (stringy filaments of varying intensities throughout), and cotton-like growths (in my nems case, some messentrial filaments popping out of tentacles when disturbed, but not constant like they're hanging all the time). In a way, I can call this tentacle rot. It's effected about 90% of his tentacles. I wish I could say it's lighting, that would be easy. But I've got him in quarantine with a really subdued light for adjustment, and he's gotten worse. I feel I am losing this nem.

hottuna · 07/20/2020, 08:51 AM

keep us posted..I have a mag right now that is doing the exact same thing..despite 7 days cipro

Jamie1210 · 07/29/2020, 04:01 PM

Do you have pics of what your mag is going through? As for your previous issue with the snails, I know! It's like my issue with the emerald crab--added 1 and suddnely,the nem died within a couple days!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Insane_Realmz

This new "cipro
resistant" disease you mention, what did your nems do? What symptoms did they have?

I've run two sessions of Cipro on my Mag, once because I acquired him and I suspect vendor to store travel got him sick. The other from from snails I added to my DT that did not seem to need quarantine and boy did I pay for that mistake.

Now, my nem is sick again, but not the usual inflating/deflating cycle when they get bacteria. This time, it's completely new. His tentacles were gorgeous, long and bulbous at the times, like a show piece nem. Now, almost all of his tentacles are crinkly, like crinkle cut fries, with filaments strewn all inside of them. Its like he's rotting from the inside out. No mouth gaping, no deflation. And the tentacles are about a 5th the lengths before. These filaments slowly appeared over a couple months. The outside of the tentacles looked tattered and "burnt?". I've never seen anything like this in my 15 years of marine aquariums.

Usually when a fish gets finrot, we can see the inflamed blood vessels and sometimes cotton-like growths on the fins. I can liken my nem's tentacles to the symptoms we see on fish with finrot. There's inflammation, blood vessels (stringy filaments of varying intensities throughout), and cotton-like growths (in my nems case, some messentrial filaments popping out of tentacles when disturbed, but not constant like they're hanging all the time). In a way, I can call this tentacle rot. It's effected about 90% of his tentacles. I wish I could say it's lighting, that would be easy. But I've got him in quarantine with a really subdued light for adjustment, and he's gotten worse. I feel I am losing this nem.

04/27/2020, 02:57 PM	#1
ThRoewer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: Fremont, CA Posts: 9,555	Anemone killing Cipro resistant superbug? In recent months I lost numerous anemones to something that doesn't seem curable with Cipro. Aside from 9 BTAs I lost: 6 giganteas, among them the purple one I had for 5 years. My metallic green gig was the latest victim which went from fine to mush in less than a week. 1 magnifica - my large Maldivian mag. I treated this one for five weeks with Cipro and for a while, it looked like it may pull through but the open mouth never went away. It had some necrosis next to the mouth that improved during the Cipro treatment but got worse again after I stopped dosing Cipro. So 2 weeks after stopping Cipro treatment I decided to change antibiotics and started a second round of treatment with Septra. That's when things went downhill fast. The anemone reacted to Septra like it was a toxin to it. It started expelling its symbiotic algae and declined rapidly and was mush on day 7 of the Septra treatment. BTW, so far I have not been successful in treating anemones with Septra - all I tried it on died and so will not use it for anemones again as they don't seem to tolerate it. Only 3 BTAs, 2 magnificas, and one gigantea recovered so far and seem to be stable. One haddoni is still hanging on but shrunk from 8" to just 1.5". I wonder if these losses were caused by Cipro resistant bacteria or if this might be something new. Also interesting is that the behavior of the anemones is different than during a "normal" infection. The magnificas and giganteas didn't go through the deflating - inflating cycles you normally see but rather went somewhat limp and had their mouths out. Aside from the huge financial loss, it is extremely frustrating and outright scary. Has anybody else encountered something like this? __________________ Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio 3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...

04/29/2020, 03:39 PM	#2
Pericyte Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Location: Tampa Posts: 221	For starters: I’m sorry for your loss. I’ve ready many of your posts over the last few years and appreciate your insight. From a medical field perspective: I’m shocked that they let antibiotics be bought so readily for fish/anemones. It’s great for us, but comes with long term consequences, especially from under dosing and not dosing long enough. I suspect there are fish stores that proactively run low antibiotics often if not all the time leading to possible resistance. As for your question: Not sure if I have enough experience to weigh in, but I definitely had a magnifica that was fine through Cipro, then seemed to die as soon as I as I took it away (two weeks of dosing). Similar, never really closed its mouth, but was not deflating. Scary reality: you could be completely right about a new superbug. Maybe a virus, who knows. Options: maybe trying Cipro alternatives if you can get your hand on them or set up an ‘in between’ tank with a few bta clones in it, canary in a coal mine? Last edited by Pericyte; 04/29/2020 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Added word

07/20/2020, 08:51 AM	#6
hottuna Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 1,248	keep us posted..I have a mag right now that is doing the exact same thing..despite 7 days cipro __________________ HotTuna

05/26/2020, 03:30 PM	#4
Jamie1210 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alhambra, CA Posts: 1,733	I'm probably kind of late to the party, but I wanted to know if you added something to the tank that caused all of your anemones to go downhill? Last month, I lost the magnifica in my 40 gallon. I've had it for a year, and was healthy as a horse. I didnt add anything to my tank in months. Then, I decided to add some emerald crabs because they were on sale. The VERY NEXT day, it deflated. I thought, hmm., that's strange, I've never seen this guy deflate before, but it still looked ok. 48 hours later, mouth gaping. I took it out to treat, but it was already turning to mush. I'm still in shock about this incidence. As for the emerald crabs? Completely healthy. Unbelievable!

07/20/2020, 12:41 AM	#5
Insane_Realmz Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Posts: 20	This new "cipro resistant" disease you mention, what did your nems do? What symptoms did they have? I've run two sessions of Cipro on my Mag, once because I acquired him and I suspect vendor to store travel got him sick. The other from from snails I added to my DT that did not seem to need quarantine and boy did I pay for that mistake. Now, my nem is sick again, but not the usual inflating/deflating cycle when they get bacteria. This time, it's completely new. His tentacles were gorgeous, long and bulbous at the times, like a show piece nem. Now, almost all of his tentacles are crinkly, like crinkle cut fries, with filaments strewn all inside of them. Its like he's rotting from the inside out. No mouth gaping, no deflation. And the tentacles are about a 5th the lengths before. These filaments slowly appeared over a couple months. The outside of the tentacles looked tattered and "burnt?". I've never seen anything like this in my 15 years of marine aquariums. Usually when a fish gets finrot, we can see the inflamed blood vessels and sometimes cotton-like growths on the fins. I can liken my nem's tentacles to the symptoms we see on fish with finrot. There's inflammation, blood vessels (stringy filaments of varying intensities throughout), and cotton-like growths (in my nems case, some messentrial filaments popping out of tentacles when disturbed, but not constant like they're hanging all the time). In a way, I can call this tentacle rot. It's effected about 90% of his tentacles. I wish I could say it's lighting, that would be easy. But I've got him in quarantine with a really subdued light for adjustment, and he's gotten worse. I feel I am losing this nem.