Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > Marine Fish Forums > Anemones & Clownfish
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 02/10/2020, 09:45 PM   #1
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
One of Two Clownfish died, can I get a new pair?

Hi,

I had a pair of clown fishes for 7-8 years, and the female died today. Not sure if percs or ocellaris.

I am wanting to get a new juvenile pair. As such, would the 3 co-exist? The old one and the the new juveniles? I plan on getting tank raised orange ones again.

So sad seeing her die.


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/11/2020, 01:22 AM   #2
laverda
Registered Member
 
laverda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 6,741
First question is why did it die? I have a pair of clowns I have had for over 26 years. So you can be pretty sure it was not old age. If you don’t know I would wait a while before adding anything to be sure the other one is healthy first.
You did not mention tank size, but my answer applies even in large 300 tanks. To answer your question; no probably not. Your existing clown may accept one new juvenile, but is not likely to accept 2. It may kill even one. If you add 2 new small clowns it would be very unlikely to create a pair. The original clown may pair up with the one of the new ones and kill the 2nd one or it may kill both. It all depends on the specific fish involved. Kind of a crap shoot really.
I would introduce the new fish in an acclimation container to give them a chance to get used to each other. Do not release the new clown until the original stops charging the container with the new one in it. Hopefully after a bit of aggression it will just hang out by the other with out showing any aggression. At that point it should be safe to release the new one.


__________________
240G mixed reef, 29G SPS/LPS clam tank, 50G mixed reef

Current Tank Info: 300g mixed reef, 50g cube
laverda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/11/2020, 01:39 AM   #3
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by laverda View Post
First question is why did it die? I have a pair of clowns I have had for over 26 years. So you can be pretty sure it was not old age. If you don’t know I would wait a while before adding anything to be sure the other one is healthy first.
You did not mention tank size, but my answer applies even in large 300 tanks. To answer your question; no probably not. Your existing clown may accept one new juvenile, but is not likely to accept 2. It may kill even one. If you add 2 new small clowns it would be very unlikely to create a pair. The original clown may pair up with the one of the new ones and kill the 2nd one or it may kill both. It all depends on the specific fish involved. Kind of a crap shoot really.
I would introduce the new fish in an acclimation container to give them a chance to get used to each other. Do not release the new clown until the original stops charging the container with the new one in it. Hopefully after a bit of aggression it will just hang out by the other with out showing any aggression. At that point it should be safe to release the new one.
Hi,

Hmm, well a few weeks ago her belly was filled with what I suspect to be eggs; she was carrying for a bit, but in the coming days before her laying eggs, she looked a bit abnormally swollen in the belly. By that, it looked like the eggs inside of her were swelling up and pressing through her scales . Just didn't look normal to me, especially the way she was swimming.

We decided to just monitor, hoping she would lay the eggs and be fine. She did just that and her size returned normal.

We though woolah, she's back, unbeknownst today would be her last day with us. She was swimming up and about this early morning while the other clown and other fishes were sleeping (lights off). I thought it was odd and peculiar for her as they usually sleep together. Later this afternoon, she just couldn't swim and was being carried and tumbling around with the current.

I see no parasites and granted we did not buy these 2 as juveniles, so I do suspect age 'may' a factor. I would like to believe that because we've had her for a long time, just like our other fishes.

The other clown is healthy, as with our other fishes. This is what's shocking.. *Sigh*

Are you suggesting that we pick up a smaller orange clown? Does it have to be a true perc / Ocellaris?? I cannot even remember the type of clown we bought; we got them at Petco and one of them was the domino variant.

We have a 55 gallon.


Thank you.


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/11/2020, 02:03 AM   #4
laverda
Registered Member
 
laverda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 6,741
It does not sound like it died of old age. Sounds like a possible swim bladder issue. 7-8 years is not really a long time for a pair of clowns.
Old fish look like old fish. Their fins start to get tattered, the fish slow down, lose weight, stop breeding, loose color and get gray just like old people. Some even go blind. Typically you can tell well before they die what is going on when a fish dies of old age. I recently lost a wrasse from old age and anyone that saw would say it looked old. In this case I have no idea how old it was. I was given to me fully grown and had it for 5 years. It started losing its eye site a year before it died. I made an extra effort to make sure if got plenty to eat as it had a harder and harder time finding food. I always soaked its food in Selcon or vitamins.
Just like people I am sure other natural causes could be at the root of your clowns premature death.


__________________
240G mixed reef, 29G SPS/LPS clam tank, 50G mixed reef

Current Tank Info: 300g mixed reef, 50g cube
laverda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/11/2020, 02:30 AM   #5
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
I see thanks. Well, if I were to pick up another juvenile (i assume it to be a male), would the age disparity / gap be an issue?

I hate seeing fish starve at stores, and hate to see them die of aggression. I may just get another juvenile and slowly introduce.


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/12/2020, 01:51 AM   #6
laverda
Registered Member
 
laverda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 6,741
A true juvenile should not be a male or female yet. If your surviving clown was the larger of the two it should be a female. You defiantly do not want to add one the same size, as they will fight to the death almost for sure. Adding a male should be ok but it can be hard to know if it it not a female for sure. A male will become a female in just a few days in my experience if there is no female in the tank. A juvenile is the safest to add and the only way I would ever consider adding more than one with your existing clown.


__________________
240G mixed reef, 29G SPS/LPS clam tank, 50G mixed reef

Current Tank Info: 300g mixed reef, 50g cube
laverda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/12/2020, 11:21 AM   #7
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by laverda View Post
A true juvenile should not be a male or female yet. If your surviving clown was the larger of the two it should be a female. You defiantly do not want to add one the same size, as they will fight to the death almost for sure. Adding a male should be ok but it can be hard to know if it it not a female for sure. A male will become a female in just a few days in my experience if there is no female in the tank. A juvenile is the safest to add and the only way I would ever consider adding more than one with your existing clown.

I am pretty sure the one I have remaining is a male. Juvenile wise, is it safe to assume the cluster of clowns they sell at stores are all juveniles, seeing as they have not paired off and in a ball. lol

I only assumed a fish under or around an inch to be a juvenile. I am afraid it being too small, but a smaller sized one may be safest.

Species wise, would it matter, since I cannot remember which one I have remaining. Im assuming it might be okay, provided it be small enough. Thanks


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/14/2020, 11:24 PM   #8
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
Will true perc n false perc match?


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 01:29 PM   #9
laverda
Registered Member
 
laverda's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Anaheim, CA
Posts: 6,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind View Post
I am pretty sure the one I have remaining is a male. Juvenile wise, is it safe to assume the cluster of clowns they sell at stores are all juveniles, seeing as they have not paired off and in a ball. lol

I only assumed a fish under or around an inch to be a juvenile. I am afraid it being too small, but a smaller sized one may be safest.

Species wise, would it matter, since I cannot remember which one I have remaining. Im assuming it might be okay, provided it be small enough. Thanks
1 should be ok.
Species wise it may matter. I do not know the answer 100% on that. You can tell the difference by their eyes pretty easily. The Percula Clownfish has a solid black eye. The false Percula Clownfish has an orange outer ring around the pupils. There are other differences in the fins and markings.


__________________
240G mixed reef, 29G SPS/LPS clam tank, 50G mixed reef

Current Tank Info: 300g mixed reef, 50g cube
laverda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 02:31 PM   #10
ThRoewer
Registered Member
 
ThRoewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 9,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by laverda View Post
... The Percula Clownfish has a solid black eye. The false Percula Clownfish has an orange outer ring around the pupils. There are other differences in the fins and markings.
It's the other way around with the eyes:
percula - orange eyes with no black (aside from the pupils),
ocellaris - mostly black eyes.

Other tells are:
- the orange body color: usually more vibrant and brighter with percula.
- hard dorsal fin height: percula have a significantly lower fin.
- the black borderlines of the white stripes: percula have generally clearly defined, relatively wide borderlines (but percula collected from magnifica anemones may have no black around their stripes at all) while ocellaris have generally smaller black borderlines that usually kind of blend into the orange (like with percula, specimen collected from magnifica anemones usually have no black borderlines to the white at all).
- fin borderlines: ocellaris almost always have complete black borderlines on their fins and in most cases a very thin white halo on the outside of the black borderlines of the soft-rayed fins. Percula often have incomplete black borderlines around their fins and never even the slightest white on the outside of those fin borderlines.
- development: ocellaris show full coloration only weeks after metamorphosis (one of the reasons why ocellaris are more popular with breeders and stores - they are sellable sooner) while percula take months to even years to develop their full coloration.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


__________________
Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
ThRoewer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:21 PM   #11
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
^^ Thanks. I can tell that in your avy, those are perculas, based on the eye? I picked up an Ocellaris, as told by the the shop, which makes sense seeing that they indeed have more color and that the eyes were more darker. I stayed away from those fancy and morphed ones; I actually dislike and feel bad seeing those clowns deliberately breed that way. Anyhow, a few hours in tank now and the 2 are swimming side by side. I'm wondering if the remaining larger male I had will now turn female?

My eyes have gotten the best of me, and I am honestly having trouble discerning between the two types. It's okay, because I love them regardless.


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 06:44 PM   #12
ThRoewer
Registered Member
 
ThRoewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 9,095
It may take a while but the dominant will become a female. That's just how it is with anemonefish.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


__________________
Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
ThRoewer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:02 PM   #13
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThRoewer View Post
It may take a while but the dominant will become a female. That's just how it is with anemonefish.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
so they can always change? like back n forth?


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 07:54 PM   #14
ThRoewer
Registered Member
 
ThRoewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 9,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind View Post
so they can always change? like back n forth?
Anemonefish can change from male to female but I don't know about any confirmed cases of a female turning back into a male. Given their lifestyle and lifecycle I would say that females turning back into males makes no sense.

Gobies, hawkfish, and groupers can change sex both ways as needed which makes pairing most of them quite easy. Dottyback males have also been confirmed to be able to change back though it takes far longer than the more common female to male transition.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


__________________
Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
ThRoewer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old Yesterday, 08:01 PM   #15
Wind
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: In an extension
Posts: 1,376
I see. I am pretty sure the one remaining is a male. I got a smaller from a group of clowns. So essentially, two males. Thing is, I dunno if the older male clown will change to female at this part of his life?
lol

I thought the window to change stemmed from their juvenile stage. If not, that‘s like saying a male can always turn to female?


Wind is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 03:24 PM   #16
ThRoewer
Registered Member
 
ThRoewer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 9,095
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wind View Post
I see. I am pretty sure the one remaining is a male. I got a smaller from a group of clowns. So essentially, two males. Thing is, I dunno if the older male clown will change to female at this part of his life?
lol

I thought the window to change stemmed from their juvenile stage. If not, thats like saying a male can always turn to female?
Yes. There is ranking order among the anemonefish in each group ( = anemone): juveniles (multiple possible), immature males (multiple possible), reproductive male (usually just one), and at very top of the hierarchy a single reproductive female.
It's like a military hierarchy in war time - anyone in the line of succession gets killed/removed the next below is promoted to fill that position. So if the female on the top of the hierarchy gets removed the reproductive male takes her place and transforms into a female. At the same time the highest ranking non-reproductive male becomes the reproductive male.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk


__________________
Pairs: 4 percula, 3 P. kauderni, 3 D. excisus, 1 ea of P. diacanthus, S. splendidus, C. altivelis O. rosenblatti, D. janssi, S. yasha & a Gramma loreto trio
3 P. diacanthus. 2 C. starcki

Current Tank Info: 200 gal 4 tank system (40x28x24 + 40B + 40B sump tank + 20g refugium) + 30x18x18 mixed reef + 20g East Pacific biotop + 20g FW +...
ThRoewer is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 07:40 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2020 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.