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Old 04/18/2017, 04:54 PM   #101
GoVols
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2una View Post
Is this becoming a salinity argument now?
1) If my nutrients are high its better not to use AF Probiotic right? So one must not mix Reefsalt to 35ppt ?
2) If i use Probiotic & want to hit hard on some water changes because of issues once again its not a good thing to do that with Probiotic so you need to use Reefsalt BUT once again don't use 35ppt ?.

I DO NOT WANT MY TANK AT 1500 Mg

Note the test below done Oct 2016 by AF's own ICP @ 33.5ppt & its still 1514 mg



The same table is here
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&postcount=179
(you need to scroll down a bit)

This is not just a US thing - there's post's in a UK forum about it as well with people ditching AF because of AF's lack of openness about the issue.
Anyway i was happily sorted out by AF but i'm not hooking into water changes to have my tank end up at 1500 Mg so i've walked to another brand.

AF Rep's this ain't your beef,you guys do a great job,it's the people above that are still printing b/s QC card's that need to sort their end out.
My Reefsalt QC card said 34ppt & Mg 1300......
My Mg was 1550 @ 35ppt
2una,
Thank you!

This is nothing new.

AF Poland,
Please read my post #50 carefully. That was twice between 2015 and late spring of 2016. It has nothing to do with your bad last summer batches. I was told by Deep Water that AF must have put Sea Salt in the reef salt buckets. (Twice) Don't send sample and your not getting a replacement bucket. We will email Poland.

You say you've fixed the consistency issues.
Then tell us what was the problem and how you fixed it, and no more PM's.

What are the new fixed batch #'s / buckets and when can I get some?

The support team is awesome but they can not speak for Poland.

Regards, Freddie


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Old 04/18/2017, 09:22 PM   #102
malady
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I am really impressed with this brand and have had good luck with the two buckets of reef salt I have bought.

But reading this thread seriously has me cautious to buy another bucket.


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Old 04/18/2017, 09:55 PM   #103
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I just tested mine and my mag is at 1490 . Alk was low at 6.4. Cal was good at 430. Salinity at 35 ppt. The box of reef salt purchased in Feb.


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Old 04/18/2017, 11:24 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoVols View Post
2una,
Thank you!

This is nothing new.

AF Poland,
Please read my post #50 carefully. That was twice between 2015 and late spring of 2016. It has nothing to do with your bad last summer batches. I was told by Deep Water that AF must have put Sea Salt in the reef salt buckets. (Twice) Don't send sample and your not getting a replacement bucket. We will email Poland.

You say you've fixed the consistency issues.
Then tell us what was the problem and how you fixed it, and no more PM's.

What are the new fixed batch #'s / buckets and when can I get some?

The support team is awesome but they can not speak for Poland.

Regards, Freddie
Hi,
I asked you and offer to send you new salt but you didn't want get it that's why I asked: What do you expect from us?

I am still waiting for informations about your batch number, your results of your salts.
Please, send me informations.


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Old 04/19/2017, 02:11 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora View Post
Hi,
I asked: What do you expect from us?
I think at first he expected to have some sort of proper customer support and obviously, he did not get any, as a fact he told you

that a long time ago! I would not say that I'm very happy with your "reef salt" mix, high mag/cal and low alk but I can tell you

that such issues need to be addressed quickly and solved in a professional manner.

By the time we request information from AF direct we will be redirected to bring up enquires at certain forums thus, everybody could

benefit by reading it and AF does not need to answer similar questions again. Yet, you respond to the actual questions but ignore the

details.

Anyway, only my 2 cents


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Old 04/19/2017, 07:58 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debora View Post
Hi,
I asked you and offer to send you new salt but you didn't want get it that's why I asked: What do you expect from us?

I am still waiting for informations about your batch number, your results of your salts.
Please, send me informations.
It is very obvious that you have not took the time to read this entire thread.

If you did... Your question has already been answered from me, Over and Over.

I have nothing to say in PM's and AF seems to have a world wide issue.

You still, will not answer my questions in my last post and that is what I expect from AF Poland.


Regards, GoVols


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Old 04/19/2017, 08:14 AM   #107
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To AF Poland,

You say you've fixed the consistency issues.
Then tell us what was the problem and how you fixed it?

What are the new fixed batch #'s / buckets and when can I get some?

Regards, GoVols


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Old 04/20/2017, 05:29 AM   #108
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All batches available in USA and other countries are good. The Problem was fixed immediately. You can buy salt without worries. We are in touch with distributors, stores, dealers all the time. Unfortunately - most problems with parameters that we have seen on the forums are showing problems with measuring by home tests kits. If someone has problems with our salt - tests kits are showing higher/lower results than in Quality Certificate - please contact us and send us a sample of the salt . In order for us to see what your situation maybe then we need to have salt to test it. We are talking about parameters/numbers but we didnt get a sample of salt to test it on ICP-OES spectrometer.

About our Quality CertificatesAquaforest products are manufactured in the EU under strict laboratory supervision to meet the highest quality standards. Each product is prepared from carefully selected raw components in quantities proven to yield consistent composition.

How is our Marine Salt product range tested?
We mix our Marine Salt in 1 metric tonne (2204lb) batches, and 3 separate samples per batch are collected during the production stage for testing. Each of these samples is dissolved in 15 litres (4US gal) of RO water. Our experienced team of professionals perform ICP-OES analysis to verify that the chemical composition is within consistent range, and to rule out the presence of unwanted contaminants at the same time.
Note:
Even though our salt is thoroughly mixed, not every bucket/box will be identical. The parameters can vary slightly between containers and around a 2-3% variation is acceptable. This fluctuation is a result of both physical properties of the mix and the limitations of the processing techniques available.
These variations are still smaller than the typical margin for error for popular hobbyist test kits.

How to identify the Batch number of my Aquaforest Salt?
Labels displaying Batch numbers are present in 2 locations:
On the outside of the bucket or cardboard box
Inside the packaging (e.g. on the inside of the bucket lid or cardboard box)


Sometimes my home tests show different parameters to those stated on the label. Why?
There are no hobbyist test kits available on the market that are able to measure small discrepancies with 100% accuracy. Variations of parameters are typically still smaller than the acceptable error of the test kits available, and therefore there is little chance of a negative impact on aquarium life.

How to prepare salt for testing?
We recommend to prepare at least 15 litres (4 US gal) of saltwater.
Mix your RO water with 585g (20.63oz) of salt, and perform the test at least 2 hours after fully dissolved. Always check the salinity in which the test was made, as this will influence the measured parameters. A salinity refractometer is recommended, together with a calibration fluid.
*Note that salinity readings also depend on the temperature. Please check your salinity at 20C (68F).

If you detect a small difference in parameters between your tank and the salt, the impact is also minor.
For example if you make the typical recommended 10% water change, the change in parameters of your tank will only be 10% of the difference.

If the Calcium level in your aquarium is 430ppm and the water change water is 450ppm, the difference is 20ppm. But as you are actually only changing 10% of aquarium volume, 10% of that 20ppm is only 2ppm. Changing water this way, with that discrepancy, would only result in a difference of 2ppm of Calcium. Thats 0.5%.

E.g.
Tank Ca = 430ppm
New salt water Ca=450ppm
The difference: 450-430 =20ppm
Estimated impact: 10% *20 =2
Tank Ca after change will be 432ppm

That difference (Ca - 2ppm) should be consumed in few hours.

Regards,
Aquaforest


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Old 04/20/2017, 11:01 AM   #109
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I don't know whether to laugh or cry....Just LOL


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Old 04/20/2017, 11:13 AM   #110
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Are you using AF salt? Are you having problems?? Not trying to stir the pot here but if you are an Aquaforest customer and you are having salt parameter issues then I'd suggest you send them a sample.


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Old 04/20/2017, 12:15 PM   #111
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I havnt tested my fresh made saltwater and dont really see much of a need 2. Small changes wont really change the overall tank parameters.
The thing i notice from thos reaponse from Af is that they are testing salinity at 68 degrees where i bet most hobbyists are testing at 76+ as thats what we want going in our tanks. It could be a reason for the discrepency people who are testing fresh batches are seeing.
Also home test kits often suck.. For example my kits often read rather different to the same water sample sent to triton.

Out of interest for AF.. How come you are testing at a much lower temp than most people run in a tank? I have always tested salinity when my water gets up 2 the temp i want to use it at.


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Old 04/20/2017, 12:44 PM   #112
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Funny how some people read something different from what the salt says and they automatically blame the salt and not the test kits. Hobby grade test kits are not accurate. I am not saying there are not bad batches of salt out there, I have seen them but I have seen way more bad test kits. Hobby grade kits are not accurate plus if they use color, people see color different. If they use dropper method 1/2 drop different can totally change results.

I have seen Salifert test kits especially be way off from one another. I always test my newest to my last because I have had some so far off they could kill a tank. I now use more than one test kit always.


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Old 04/20/2017, 12:55 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquaforest View Post
All batches available in USA and other countries are good. The Problem was fixed immediately. You can buy salt without worries. We are in touch with distributors, stores, dealers all the time. Unfortunately - most problems with parameters that we have seen on the forums are showing problems with measuring by home tests kits. If someone has problems with our salt - tests kits are showing higher/lower results than in Quality Certificate - please contact us and send us a sample of the salt . In order for us to see what your situation maybe then we need to have salt to test it. We are talking about parameters/numbers but we didn’t get a sample of salt to test it on ICP-OES spectrometer.

About our Quality CertificatesAquaforest products are manufactured in the EU under strict laboratory supervision to meet the highest quality standards. Each product is prepared from carefully selected raw components in quantities proven to yield consistent composition.

How is our Marine Salt product range tested?
We mix our Marine Salt in 1 metric tonne (2204lb) batches, and 3 separate samples per batch are collected during the production stage for testing. Each of these samples is dissolved in 15 litres (4US gal) of RO water. Our experienced team of professionals perform ICP-OES analysis to verify that the chemical composition is within consistent range, and to rule out the presence of unwanted contaminants at the same time.
Note:
Even though our salt is thoroughly mixed, not every bucket/box will be identical. The parameters can vary slightly between containers and around a 2-3% variation is acceptable. This fluctuation is a result of both physical properties of the mix and the limitations of the processing techniques available.
These variations are still smaller than the typical margin for error for popular hobbyist test kits.

How to identify the Batch number of my Aquaforest Salt?
Labels displaying Batch numbers are present in 2 locations:
On the outside of the bucket or cardboard box
Inside the packaging (e.g. on the inside of the bucket lid or cardboard box)


Sometimes my home tests show different parameters to those stated on the label. Why?
There are no hobbyist test kits available on the market that are able to measure small discrepancies with 100% accuracy. Variations of parameters are typically still smaller than the acceptable error of the test kits available, and therefore there is little chance of a negative impact on aquarium life.

How to prepare salt for testing?
We recommend to prepare at least 15 litres (4 US gal) of saltwater.
Mix your RO water with 585g (20.63oz) of salt, and perform the test at least 2 hours after fully dissolved. Always check the salinity in which the test was made, as this will influence the measured parameters. A salinity refractometer is recommended, together with a calibration fluid.
*Note that salinity readings also depend on the temperature. Please check your salinity at 20C (68F).

If you detect a small difference in parameters between your tank and the salt, the impact is also minor.
For example if you make the typical recommended 10% water change, the change in parameters of your tank will only be 10% of the difference.

If the Calcium level in your aquarium is 430ppm and the water change water is 450ppm, the difference is 20ppm. But as you are actually only changing 10% of aquarium volume, 10% of that 20ppm is only 2ppm. Changing water this way, with that discrepancy, would only result in a difference of 2ppm of Calcium. That’s 0.5%.

E.g.
Tank Ca = 430ppm
New salt water Ca=450ppm
The difference: 450-430 =20ppm
Estimated impact: 10% *20 =2
Tank Ca after change will be 432ppm

That difference (Ca - 2ppm) should be consumed in few hours.

Regards,
Aquaforest

I'm sure we can all do math, you are missing the point. If you tell me the salt mixes from 410 - 440 I don't want to test it and find it's 480. That gives me no confidence in the product. Do you guys not keep samples of each batch? You should be, so why do you need people to send salt in? This is just odd. Your stance seems to be it's user error, but I have a hard time believing home test kits and basic refractometers are an issue when other salts check out fine and many people online report the same findings. If ten people test mag at 1500 I have a hard time believing it's actually at 1300. Why are you publishing these numbers at 33 ppt anyway, 95% of reefers with hard corals are keeping higher salinity than that.

I switched away from AF salt about six months ago, my own testing revealed parameters that I just wasn't happy with. I would rather have parameters too low and adjust them in my mixing container before doing a water change and I am sure many people would agree. With calcium and/or mag too high there is not much you can do. I did consider using sea salt instead but I can't find any information online about whether or not it contains the same type of trace elements as the reef salt necessary for hard coral health, so I just switched back to what I was using before. If I had more confidence in the parameters I would use the salt because I was happy with it in other areas.



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Old 04/20/2017, 01:39 PM   #114
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Why do they want you to send a salt sample in??

They had an issue last year that if you read the post you can see was fixed. If people are having issues now AFTER this has been fixed then they need to know about it because it's news to them. There is nothing odd about it. If it was your product and you were told this you'd want a sample also.

I don't think it would be crazy or abnormal to have some numbers off here and there. We are talking about a handful of people out of literally thousands and thousands of buckets and boxes of salt. So requesting a sample is to much to ask?? You jest Sir!

You stated that you switched away from AF salt 6 months ago so really you should just let it go man and move on. The point of this post is to help people .

I think it's pretty obvious by now that AQUAFOREST is looking very closely at the product line and they have been tracing and tracking things back just like anyone else would do.

You should have a ton of confidence in all of Aquaforest products. With all of the focus on quality as of late and being a fairly new company to the US market don't you believe that they are hyper focused on quality right now??

I assure you Aquaforest is here to stay, they stand behind their products and all they ask is for a salt sample and people get unhinged! Really!!??!!

Please.......


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Old 04/20/2017, 01:41 PM   #115
2una
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
Are you using AF salt? Are you having problems?? Not trying to stir the pot here but if you are an Aquaforest customer and you are having salt parameter issues then I'd suggest you send them a sample.
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Hey 120, no i've solved my issue with it by getting a store credit & moved to a differant salt now.They were sent a sample from the SA distributor.
They can keep their 1500 mag reefsalt - even more so now as they think its just fine.


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Old 04/20/2017, 01:44 PM   #116
120reefer
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2una View Post
Hey 120, no i've solved my issue with it by getting a store credit & moved to a differant salt now.They were sent a sample from the SA distributor.

They can keep their 1500 mag reefsalt - even more so now as they think its just fine.


You see there are several people on here chiming in that don't even use the product anymore.

I rest my case.

By the way this is just my personal opinion.

Good luck Happy reefing !


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Old 04/20/2017, 01:53 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
Why do they want you to send a salt sample in??

They had an issue last year that if you read the post you can see was fixed. If people are having issues now AFTER this has been fixed then they need to know about it because it's news to them. There is nothing odd about it. If it was your product and you were told this you'd want a sample also.

I don't think it would be crazy or abnormal to have some numbers off here and there. We are talking about a handful of people out of literally thousands and thousands of buckets and boxes of salt. So requesting a sample is to much to ask?? You jest Sir!
They should have a sample. You don't think other salt manufacturers (or anybody that makes anything) is not keeping samples from batches? Asking us to send samples to the other side of the world so that can tell us "nothing is wrong" is lame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
You stated that you switched away from AF salt 6 months ago so really you should just let it go man and move on. The point of this post is to help people .
I don't particularly care, AF relies a lot more on guys like me than our tanks do on them. There are many other products out there that do the same thing and are as advertised.

I think many in this thread will agree that AF hasn't exactly done very much to help anyone other than question consumer testing methods, but then they also say they are making improvements to their QC and in the future products will be better. So while admitting their products are not always right, they have also managed to insult the consumer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
I think it's pretty obvious by now that AQUAFOREST is looking very closely at the product line and they have been tracing and tracking things back just like anyone else would do.
Closing the barn doors after the horse is gone. You have one chance to make a first impression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
You should have a ton of confidence in all of Aquaforest products. With all of the focus on quality as of late and being a fairly new company to the US market don't you believe that they are hyper focused on quality right now??
They should have been hyper focused on it from the beginning. I also know Phosphate Minus is not nearly as good a product as Rowa, and ProBioF is useless compared to NoPox, and CoralFix is just re-badged DD epoxy, so no, I don't have confidence in their products, which is a shame because I had bought into the marketing and what not a year ago, and ultimately was disappointed.


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Old 04/20/2017, 01:54 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
You see there are several people on here chiming in that don't even use the product anymore.

I rest my case.

By the way this is just my personal opinion.

Good luck Happy reefing !


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So what?
You'd like us to just shutup like aquaforest would?

Hey i'm out anyway - had enough of this b/s


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Old 04/20/2017, 01:59 PM   #119
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So what?
You'd like us to just shutup like aquaforest would?


Not if we have constructive input.The point of this post is to help people not talk about past events.... hope your not "Salty" about it.


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Old 04/20/2017, 02:02 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Potatohead View Post
They should have a sample. You don't think other salt manufacturers (or anybody that makes anything) is not keeping samples from batches? Asking us to send samples to the other side of the world so that can tell us "nothing is wrong" is lame.



I don't particularly care, AF relies a lot more on guys like me than our tanks do on them. There are many other products out there that do the same thing and are as advertised.

I think many in this thread will agree that AF hasn't exactly done very much to help anyone other than question consumer testing methods, but then they also say they are making improvements to their QC and in the future products will be better. So while admitting their products are not always right, they have also managed to insult the consumer.



Closing the barn doors after the horse is gone. You have one chance to make a first impression.



They should have been hyper focused on it from the beginning. I also know Phosphate Minus is not nearly as good a product as Rowa, and ProBioF is useless compared to NoPox, and CoralFix is just re-badged DD epoxy, so no, I don't have confidence in their products, which is a shame because I had bought into the marketing and what not a year ago, and ultimately was disappointed.


Wow tough crowd! So what your saying is there is no way for a company to recover??

Have a good day Sir!


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Old 04/20/2017, 02:11 PM   #121
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Wow tough crowd! So what your saying is there is no way for a company to recover??

Have a good day Sir!


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Not really, I will consider using the products again, but I would have to see marked improvement for at least a year or two. They have some good points in their product line, I think the whole thing just needs to be polished, and they likely tried to expand too fast. I also find it very odd they sell their product absolutely everywhere rather than picking and choosing which retailers/distributors they wish to deal with. That is dangerous and can backfire. I guess in time we will see.


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Old 04/20/2017, 03:10 PM   #122
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Not really, I will consider using the products again, but I would have to see marked improvement for at least a year or two. They have some good points in their product line, I think the whole thing just needs to be polished, and they likely tried to expand too fast. I also find it very odd they sell their product absolutely everywhere rather than picking and choosing which retailers/distributors they wish to deal with. That is dangerous and can backfire. I guess in time we will see.


This is understandable and reasonable.




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Old 04/20/2017, 03:31 PM   #123
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[QUOTE= I also find it very odd they sell their product absolutely everywhere rather than picking and choosing which retailers/distributors they wish to deal with. That is dangerous and can backfire. I guess in time we will see.[/QUOTE]

The product is not absolutely everywhere my friend. I know firsthand where the products are and how much are being sold


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Old 04/20/2017, 05:53 PM   #124
shred5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 120reefer View Post
Why do they want you to send a salt sample in??

They had an issue last year that if you read the post you can see was fixed. If people are having issues now AFTER this has been fixed then they need to know about it because it's news to them. There is nothing odd about it. If it was your product and you were told this you'd want a sample also.

I don't think it would be crazy or abnormal to have some numbers off here and there. We are talking about a handful of people out of literally thousands and thousands of buckets and boxes of salt. So requesting a sample is to much to ask?? You jest Sir!

You stated that you switched away from AF salt 6 months ago so really you should just let it go man and move on. The point of this post is to help people .

I think it's pretty obvious by now that AQUAFOREST is looking very closely at the product line and they have been tracing and tracking things back just like anyone else would do.

You should have a ton of confidence in all of Aquaforest products. With all of the focus on quality as of late and being a fairly new company to the US market don't you believe that they are hyper focused on quality right now??

I assure you Aquaforest is here to stay, they stand behind their products and all they ask is for a salt sample and people get unhinged! Really!!??!!

Please.......


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Not to mention there are people who would lie for a free bucket of salt.
plus reading a few post here by how far off some of these people are yelling about in a few threads are easily with in a margin of error hobby kits can be off. Especially magnesium which is not easy for a kit to read.


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Old 04/20/2017, 08:39 PM   #125
soreninkl
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Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Malaysia
Posts: 13
Quote:
Originally Posted by shred5 View Post
Funny how some people read something different from what the salt says and they automatically blame the salt and not the test kits. Hobby grade test kits are not accurate. I am not saying there are not bad batches of salt out there, I have seen them but I have seen way more bad test kits. Hobby grade kits are not accurate plus if they use color, people see color different. If they use dropper method 1/2 drop different can totally change results.
I can't less agree with you! We hobbyist just use those test which are available at the shops, made for hobbyist. We hobbyist surely have problems measuring, leave alone color blindness, counting drop by drop, not being focused, our test vial wasn't clean and there are many more reasons to come up with. I for my self, I was using Salifert and was rather puzzled about the levels of mag/cal/kh and measured again and again thus, I measured 3 times and had similar values. After all I contacted the shop and they asked me to bring over some sample water and we tested over there with Salifert/Sera for mag/cal and Salifert/API/Sera/Nyos for kh. All the results came up similar, mag/cal couldn't be determined simply because the values were above the test kits highest value and all kh test kits showed values below 6.

Somehow I draw my own foolish conclusion and tried to contact AF but their only statement was "our salt is good, send some water and we test from you". They even came up with that statement in this particular thread and insisted that only their tests are accurate and all others are......


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