Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Responsible Reefkeeping
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 03/14/2017, 08:31 AM   #51
ca1ore
Grizzled & Cynical
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 14,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozadars View Post
World has gone through many mass extinctions and still managed to develop very diverse and complex natural ecosystems.
Agreed. I always think these 'save the planet' movements are misguided. The planet will be fine, it's we the people that are in trouble. Whether global warming exacerbated by profound human ignorance or something else, the plant will move on, just without us.


__________________
Simon

Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 265 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
ca1ore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/16/2017, 11:33 AM   #52
iced98lx
.
 
iced98lx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 2,081
some light reading:

http://www.sfgate.com/news/science/a...e-11004117.php

Cheers.


__________________
Chris

180 Gallon In Wall
iced98lx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/16/2017, 01:32 PM   #53
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Agreed. I always think these 'save the planet' movements are misguided. The planet will be fine, it's we the people that are in trouble. Whether global warming exacerbated by profound human ignorance or something else, the plant will move on, just without us.
If, by planet, you mean the physical rock we ride on, sure, it'll be just fine. But, all life on this planet, not just humans, are in big trouble.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/16/2017, 07:27 PM   #54
ca1ore
Grizzled & Cynical
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 14,340
Something always survives; enough for mother nature to start anew. As a species, humans are so narrow minded that I'm not sure anything beyond 'save us' really resonates.


__________________
Simon

Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 265 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
ca1ore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/16/2017, 08:20 PM   #55
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Something always survives; enough for mother nature to start anew. As a species, humans are so narrow minded that I'm not sure anything beyond 'save us' really resonates.
There's a big difference between a planet with only cockroaches and what we've got now. I don't want to see how minimalistic we can get with regards to diversity while still maintaining human life. It'd be pretty bleak, methinks.

If thinking about the outrageous expanse of space and barren planets in the universe in comparison to our embarrassment of life doesn't damn near bring a tear to your eye and make you want to preserve it, you have a hollow soul.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX

Last edited by HippieSmell; 03/16/2017 at 08:25 PM.
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/21/2017, 11:52 AM   #56
HuskerBioProf
Registered Member
 
HuskerBioProf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Omaha, Nebraska
Posts: 287
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
There's a big difference between a planet with only cockroaches and what we've got now. I don't want to see how minimalistic we can get with regards to diversity while still maintaining human life. It'd be pretty bleak, methinks.

If thinking about the outrageous expanse of space and barren planets in the universe in comparison to our embarrassment of life doesn't damn near bring a tear to your eye and make you want to preserve it, you have a hollow soul.
I agree. The whole world could be a Dickens-esque industrial wasteland, and we could use our technology and ingenuity to survive (and perhaps even thrive). We just have to recognize how valuable "life as we know it" is-- do we enjoy walks through wilderness areas where we stumble upon wildlife? Catching fish just for the fun of it? Hunting? Scuba diving?

It may require us to remove the fear of death and poverty (and, inversely, the promise of power and wealth) in order for us to start dealing with improving the quality of life through maintaining the natural world. I just hope it isn't too late.


__________________
150G SPS Peninsula tank
Build Thread: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2627600p=24706573#post24706573
------Go Big Red!-----------------------------------------------------------------
HuskerBioProf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 01:50 PM   #57
ca1ore
Grizzled & Cynical
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 14,340
Google 'methane monster' and see if that doesn't run a chill up your spine. Even if the possibility of such a catastrophe is small, the results would be so devastating that it's irresponsible for us in the here and now to do essentially nothing. Appalling lack of vision from our current executive branch.


__________________
Simon

Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 265 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
ca1ore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 03:58 PM   #58
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Appalling lack of vision from our current executive branch.
Because you don't agree with them or your candidate didn't win? No different than over regulating to the point of stopping innovation. You want to see this first hand, stop by California and see all the business leaving or the amount of poaching from Texas and Nevada. But then double standards come to play when the political elite want to shove a bullet train down your throat that won't service its original intent and is running billions (you can capitalize this if you want) over budget.

Give the current branch a chance. You might be surprised.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 06:23 PM   #59
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
Because you don't agree with them or your candidate didn't win? No different than over regulating to the point of stopping innovation. You want to see this first hand, stop by California and see all the business leaving or the amount of poaching from Texas and Nevada. But then double standards come to play when the political elite want to shove a bullet train down your throat that won't service its original intent and is running billions (you can capitalize this if you want) over budget.

Give the current branch a chance. You might be surprised.
You don't know what you're talking about. Full stop.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 06:30 PM   #60
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
You don't know what you're talking about. Full stop.
That would be the typical answer when someone says or does something you don't agree with. Full stop, not going to happen. Maybe stop fighting or bucking the system and work with it. Might actually help your argument and/or cause.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 06:30 PM   #61
ca1ore
Grizzled & Cynical
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 14,340
Haha, my 'candidate' was never winning .... It's because I think global warming is going to quickly become the most pervasive problem that we face and history is not going to be kind to the 'deniers'. The things you note really are incidental by comparison. I've lived and worked around NYC for all of my adult life so I expect very little from the current branch. I suppose that puts me in the position to be pleasantly surprised. I hear the term 'elite' on the Telly all the time, still don't really kno what it means. Educated people? Sucessful people? Perhaps it's just anyone who disagrees? Anyhoo .....


__________________
Simon

Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 265 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
ca1ore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 06:42 PM   #62
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Haha, my 'candidate' was never winning .... It's because I think global warming is going to quickly become the most pervasive problem that we face and history is not going to be kind to the . The things you note really are incidental by comparison. I've lived and worked around NYC for all of my adult life so I expect very little from the current branch. I suppose that puts me in the position to be pleasantly surprised. I hear the term 'elite' on the Telly all the time, still don't really kno what it means. Educated people? Sucessful people? Perhaps it's just anyone who disagrees? Anyhoo .....
It very well may be. But it is a lot like politics. If you don't agree with whatever party is in office then you are right way labeled. Everyone is guilty of it. And most have been on the receiving end at one time or another. So yes, I focused on the branch jab. Seems like everyone is spending so much energy on fighting it rather than finding a way to work with it. Have to admit, well you don't actually, but it is rather frightening.

Incidental? Not really. Depends on what state you are in. You don't think the bullet train isn't impacting the environment? What about the partially built Auburn Damn? Let us talk about the delta tunnels. How about those new reservoirs that should have been built but couldn't (drought right?) and we let all the water this year run off and into the ocean. Cattle? Farming?

There are 'deniers', I agree with you. But on the other hand not everyone who agrees with your side of the debate are deniers. They just have a different view or assessment. That isn't a bad thing. What all this fighting means though is that we are not ready to sit down and have a discussion (not you or I).

Very sparky thread but that is why it is called babble. I for one hope you are pleasantly surprised and hope you have a good evening.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 07:05 PM   #63
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
Because you don't agree with them or your candidate didn't win? No different than over regulating to the point of stopping innovation. You want to see this first hand, stop by California and see all the business leaving or the amount of poaching from Texas and Nevada. But then double standards come to play when the political elite want to shove a bullet train down your throat that won't service its original intent and is running billions (you can capitalize this if you want) over budget.

Give the current branch a chance. You might be surprised.
That's not how regulation works. If you tell industry to produce clean energy through laws and financial incentives, they put research into producing clean energy. If you remove regulations on dirty energy, it becomes even cheaper to buy and that's what people use. It's not a difficult concept. Take a look at Europe and see how much of their energy is from renewable sources. Regulation is often the source of innovation, not a hindrance.

What is political elite? I honestly have no idea what people mean by that term.

And yes, the current branch has gotten their chance. I have already been surprised, to put it mildly.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/28/2017, 09:54 PM   #64
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
That's not how regulation works. If you tell industry to produce clean energy through laws and financial incentives, they put research into producing clean energy. If you remove regulations on dirty energy, it becomes even cheaper to buy and that's what people use. It's not a difficult concept. Take a look at Europe and see how much of their energy is from renewable sources. Regulation is often the source of innovation, not a hindrance.

What is political elite? I honestly have no idea what people mean by that term.

And yes, the current branch has gotten their chance. I have already been surprised, to put it mildly.
Subsidizing the industry doesn't help, look at the solar (and similar) companies going bankrupt. Incentives to the business or manufactures yet I'll ask you how the solar cell efficiencies have improved by all of this money various states are throwing at it. I'm complaining but I also have solar on my roof. While nice, panels have a way to in my opinion.

Wind? Eye sore. I don't recall if you live in Ca (avatar image of UC Davis is throwing me off - no disrespect) but how about that lovely farm on 580 / diablo area. Some work, some don't. Then there is Auburn damn. That isn't working out too well and we would get both clean energy (hydro) and more water storage capacity. Two-for-price-of-one...still can't get that job done

You want clean energy - Nuclear is it. Regulations killed it. Maybe Moonbeam (gov's nick name, not me being a poo head) could have provided a 10 billion dollar bond for safer nuclear power and waste handling rather than the rail system no one wants. Better yet fund the gaping CALPERS funds (balance budget right? Oops, forgot that funding requirement).

Then let us factor in all of the Amazon and other private space companies, also heavily subsidized by the government (er, taxpayers) trying to get out of low earth orbit. That money could be diverted to the so called incentive program for clean something or other, right? Rather than the romantic nature of space exploration that isn't going to solve any problem today outside of militarization.

Lastly - I did single out executive branch with regards to regulations. Have you read the order on reducing regulation and controlling costs? If not, you should. If you have, do you honestly feel it will impact you or the climate? It didn't eliminate "new" regulation. It states unless prohibited by law, any "new" regulation issued two prior regulations be "identified" for elimination...

The sky isn't falling for either of us.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 09:12 AM   #65
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
Subsidizing the industry doesn't help, look at the solar (and similar) companies going bankrupt. Incentives to the business or manufactures yet I'll ask you how the solar cell efficiencies have improved by all of this money various states are throwing at it. I'm complaining but I also have solar on my roof. While nice, panels have a way to in my opinion.

Wind? Eye sore. I don't recall if you live in Ca (avatar image of UC Davis is throwing me off - no disrespect) but how about that lovely farm on 580 / diablo area. Some work, some don't. Then there is Auburn damn. That isn't working out too well and we would get both clean energy (hydro) and more water storage capacity. Two-for-price-of-one...still can't get that job done

You want clean energy - Nuclear is it. Regulations killed it. Maybe Moonbeam (gov's nick name, not me being a poo head) could have provided a 10 billion dollar bond for safer nuclear power and waste handling rather than the rail system no one wants. Better yet fund the gaping CALPERS funds (balance budget right? Oops, forgot that funding requirement).

Then let us factor in all of the Amazon and other private space companies, also heavily subsidized by the government (er, taxpayers) trying to get out of low earth orbit. That money could be diverted to the so called incentive program for clean something or other, right? Rather than the romantic nature of space exploration that isn't going to solve any problem today outside of militarization.

Lastly - I did single out executive branch with regards to regulations. Have you read the order on reducing regulation and controlling costs? If not, you should. If you have, do you honestly feel it will impact you or the climate? It didn't eliminate "new" regulation. It states unless prohibited by law, any "new" regulation issued two prior regulations be "identified" for elimination...

The sky isn't falling for either of us.
Subsidies can be abused, but they can also help fledgling industries get product to market at a price consumers can afford. Then, once manufacturing costs lower, subsidies can be reduced.

You can complain about wind being an eye sore, but that's not really a feasibility argument, is it?

Nuclear is friggin dangerous. Fukushima is all you need to look at. Never mind Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and dozens more that are having issues but don't get attention. Also, the resources and energy needed​ to build and maintain a nuclear reactor dictate that they don't produce energy until about ten years after completion. Then, they have a planned 40 year life span. At which point you spend more money to decommission, or continue to operate a maintenance nightmare waiting to fail.

Do you really want to defend the current administration's environmental policy? You've got a tough sell. It's wholesale assault, sorry.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 10:04 AM   #66
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
Subsidies can be abused, but they can also help fledgling industries get product to market at a price consumers can afford. Then, once manufacturing costs lower, subsidies can be reduced.

You can complain about wind being an eye sore, but that's not really a feasibility argument, is it?

Nuclear is friggin dangerous. Fukushima is all you need to look at. Never mind Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and dozens more that are having issues but don't get attention. Also, the resources and energy needed​ to build and maintain a nuclear reactor dictate that they don't produce energy until about ten years after completion. Then, they have a planned 40 year life span. At which point you spend more money to decommission, or continue to operate a maintenance nightmare waiting to fail.

Do you really want to defend the current administration's environmental policy? You've got a tough sell. It's wholesale assault, sorry.
I see your points, just don't agree with all of them. Regulations do get in the way has I pointed out in one example of California's Auburn Dam which started in the late 50's or 60's (I forget). One of the arguments against completion is the impact of local environment...

People abuse, you are right. I agree. I also agree with you when you pointed out I said eye sore - that is subjective although I would wager it isn't very friendly to creatures that fly. Be that has it may, I hear, and understand your points. Don't agree, but it isn't the end of the world.

Tough sell, time will tell. So far nothing they have done is earth shattering nor will impact any of us let alone the climate. All of us in this forum, who own tanks anyway, are impacting the environment if truth be told unless we are all sharing frags and buying captive bred. Let us not even get into the waste of RI/RO water.

But yeah - I can see a bit of your arguments and I'm cool with it.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 10:56 AM   #67
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
I see your points, just don't agree with all of them. Regulations do get in the way has I pointed out in one example of California's Auburn Dam which started in the late 50's or 60's (I forget). One of the arguments against completion is the impact of local environment...

People abuse, you are right. I agree. I also agree with you when you pointed out I said eye sore - that is subjective although I would wager it isn't very friendly to creatures that fly. Be that has it may, I hear, and understand your points. Don't agree, but it isn't the end of the world.

Tough sell, time will tell. So far nothing they have done is earth shattering nor will impact any of us let alone the climate. All of us in this forum, who own tanks anyway, are impacting the environment if truth be told unless we are all sharing frags and buying captive bred. Let us not even get into the waste of RI/RO water.

But yeah - I can see a bit of your arguments and I'm cool with it.
You don't think coal mining waste getting dumped into the waterway will impact public health? http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7560916.html

What about slashing the EPA budget by a third?

How about complete climate change denial and modern day digital book burning? https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...g-my-citations


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 12:20 PM   #68
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
You don't think coal mining waste getting dumped into the waterway will impact public health? http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7560916.html

What about slashing the EPA budget by a third?

How about complete climate change denial and modern day digital book burning? https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...g-my-citations
Nope. There are far worse things being dumped into the waterways in the form of pesticides and pharmaceutical products that one should be worried about.

All budgets should be slashed by a third if not more. That is a good starting point to right the ship. Take a look at your last SS statement. There is a * note I'd like to point you to. It says that law governing benefits amounts may change because, by "insert year here" payroll taxes collected will be enough to pay only 77 percent. By the way, that used to be the year 2048. Now it is 2033. People on the committee are now projecting 2018. That is next year. Why is this brought up? Someone has to pay. Plain and simple. Balance the budget, prioritize, communicate if you don't agree. If you are feeling generous then come April write the federal government an additional check. You can, it is allowed.

It isn't about denial. It is about the constant attacking that goes on when people disagree. Our Gov is saying has loud has he can that climate change is the cause, or worsening, Ca's drought yet historical data says otherwise not to mention infrastructure storage and population. Regulations, climate, and of course money. Enter a heavy winter of rain and snow guess what - water capacity restored. Interesting how Earth managed that all on its own like years before.

Nowhere does it say that people should not be responsible. What it does say is that climate discussions are just has hostile has politics and religion. People never seem to say "you know, I didn't see it that way", you are right".


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 12:28 PM   #69
ca1ore
Grizzled & Cynical
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Stamford, CT
Posts: 14,340
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
But on the other hand not everyone who disagrees with your side of the debate are deniers. They just have a different view or assessment. That isn't a bad thing. What all this fighting means though is that we are not ready to sit down and have a discussion (not you or I).
Trouble is, most people's 'assessment' is based on opinions not facts. Even if we can debate the facts, and we can, the thing that troubles me is that the risk of being wrong is catastrophic. I recall reading many years ago an accounting of Ronald Reagan being briefed on ozone layer depletion. His response was something like 'even if there's a chance that it's true, we'd better do something about it'. I don't see that kind of leadership anymore.

I see climate change as something of a Sophie's choice - a comfortable now or a viable future. As a species we lack vision, so we always choose now.


__________________
Simon

Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones!

Current Tank Info: 265 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs
ca1ore is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 12:36 PM   #70
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by ca1ore View Post
Trouble is, most people's 'assessment' is based on opinions not facts. Even if we can debate the facts, and we can, the thing that troubles me is that the risk of being wrong is catastrophic. I recall reading many years ago an accounting of Ronald Reagan being briefed on ozone layer depletion. His response was something like 'even if there's a chance that it's true, we'd better do something about it'. I don't see that kind of leadership anymore.

I see climate change as something of a Sophie's choice - a comfortable now or a viable future. As a species we lack vision, so we always choose now.
Many people during the Reagan years didn't give him much of a chance of doing anything either. While he didn't have much executive branch experience outside his stint has Ca Gov he was an outsider much like our sitting president today. Since you brought him up I am guessing you remember many of the bedtime for Bonzo jokes... Seems he turned out to be a pretty wise and successful president.

I don't believe this is an opinion you have to change but rather the system has a whole. Our founding fathers did not intend to have career politicians and their personal agenda's are getting in the way of concerns that these posts are discussing. No more than our court system. And that is why you have the elected president today.

Just my opinion in case you wanted to know


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 12:56 PM   #71
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
Nope. There are far worse things being dumped into the waterways in the form of pesticides and pharmaceutical products that one should be worried about.

All budgets should be slashed by a third if not more. That is a good starting point to right the ship. Take a look at your last SS statement. There is a * note I'd like to point you to. It says that law governing benefits amounts may change because, by "insert year here" payroll taxes collected will be enough to pay only 77 percent. By the way, that used to be the year 2048. Now it is 2033. People on the committee are now projecting 2018. That is next year. Why is this brought up? Someone has to pay. Plain and simple. Balance the budget, prioritize, communicate if you don't agree. If you are feeling generous then come April write the federal government an additional check. You can, it is allowed.

It isn't about denial. It is about the constant attacking that goes on when people disagree. Our Gov is saying has loud has he can that climate change is the cause, or worsening, Ca's drought yet historical data says otherwise not to mention infrastructure storage and population. Regulations, climate, and of course money. Enter a heavy winter of rain and snow guess what - water capacity restored. Interesting how Earth managed that all on its own like years before.

Nowhere does it say that people should not be responsible. What it does say is that climate discussions are just has hostile has politics and religion. People never seem to say "you know, I didn't see it that way", you are right".
So, heavy metal contamination isn't a problem because there are, in your opinion, worse things going into the water? That's some special logic. We should dump nuclear waste into the water so we don't have to worry about anything else.

I'm not sure what ss has to do with anything, but if we lifted the cap on ss payments, we be solvent for a hundred years.

All I'll say about climate change is, you either believe science, or you don't. Even oil companies believe the science, they just suppress it.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 01:20 PM   #72
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
So, heavy metal contamination isn't a problem because there are, in your opinion, worse things going into the water? That's some special logic. We should dump nuclear waste into the water so we don't have to worry about anything else.

I'm not sure what ss has to do with anything, but if we lifted the cap on ss payments, we be solvent for a hundred years.

All I'll say about climate change is, you either believe science, or you don't. Even oil companies believe the science, they just suppress it.
When contamination is has bad as your statement is alluding then it would be stopped. Why do you think paint has no lead. Glass windows? Lead free. Or your pipes in homes, lead free. See the pattern? I can flip this of course and state by "your" logic we have nothing to worry about pesticides and pharmaceutical products entering our waterways.

You are not sure what SS has to do with anything? It is a reply to your comment of cutting the budget. Do you believe the current administration is that hostile towards climate agendas that they targeted that line item? Or are they proposing a line item to discuss and negotiate? It isn't solvent which is why it is the next big issue this administration will need to fix much like Ca's Gov with CalPERS. Someone has to pay.

And all I'll say about climate change is that yes, people on earth impact it. People should be responsible. But even the scientific community that is providing the data you note isn't on the same page. Otherwise it would be a resounding "this is issue number 1" sort of thing. I think you have seen me say I agree with some statements here. Others I don't.

It is more political posturing in my opinion and not so much has this administration out to get you.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 03:49 PM   #73
HippieSmell
Occupy Reef Central
 
HippieSmell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Orbiting
Posts: 3,869
Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
When contamination is has bad as your statement is alluding then it would be stopped. Why do you think paint has no lead. Glass windows? Lead free. Or your pipes in homes, lead free. See the pattern? I can flip this of course and state by "your" logic we have nothing to worry about pesticides and pharmaceutical products entering our waterways.
Why do you want lead and arsenic put into the water when it's a proven health hazard? Boggles my mind. Do you live anywhere near one of these sites? And, no, I don't want pesticides and pharmaceuticals in my water, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
You are not sure what SS has to do with anything? It is a reply to your comment of cutting the budget. Do you believe the current administration is that hostile towards climate agendas that they targeted that line item? Or are they proposing a line item to discuss and negotiate? It isn't solvent which is why it is the next big issue this administration will need to fix much like Ca's Gov with CalPERS. Someone has to pay.
SS doesn't cost the government anything. It doesn't effect the budget and it is fixable by lifting the cap. All the belly aching over SS is just so it can be privatized and burglarized.

If you want to balance the budget, don't cut important programs that make up a small portion of the budget and then take all the savings and put it into the military, because that's what is being proposed. I'll take a clean environment over more unnecessary military excursions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by saf1 View Post
And all I'll say about climate change is that yes, people on earth impact it. People should be responsible. But even the scientific community that is providing the data you note isn't on the same page. Otherwise it would be a resounding "this is issue number 1" sort of thing. I think you have seen me say I agree with some statements here. Others I don't.

It is more political posturing in my opinion and not so much has this administration out to get you.
Among climate scientists, which is the group of scientists we should be listening to regarding the climate, not engineers and the like, it IS issue #1.


__________________
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like bananas.

Current Tank Info: 78"x36"x27" acrylic, 6 Orphek Atlantik V3+ Compacts, MRC Orca Pro II w/washdown, CalcFeeder Pro AC3, Emperor Aquatics 80w UV, 80/20 aluminum stand, Vortech MP60's, Theiling Rollermat, GHL Profilux 3.1T EX
HippieSmell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 04:33 PM   #74
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
Why do you want lead and arsenic put into the water when it's a proven health hazard? Boggles my mind. Do you live anywhere near one of these sites? And, no, I don't want pesticides and pharmaceuticals in my water, either.
Flint Michigan. That is a problem. Clearly other people disagree with your assessment on the coal mining regulations. Me included. Try to say why do I or why I don't care because I do or don't live near is irrelevant. If you truly feel it is a issue, vote and write letters. I wish you luck.

Quote:
SS doesn't cost the government anything. It doesn't effect the budget and it is fixable by lifting the cap. All the belly aching over SS is just so it can be privatized and burglarized.

If you want to balance the budget, don't cut important programs that make up a small portion of the budget and then take all the savings and put it into the military, because that's what is being proposed. I'll take a clean environment over more unnecessary military excursions.
We might as well end this discussion. You are missing the key point, or don't agree (which is fine) that someone has to pay. That someone is you and I, and various programs deemed unworthy. We have tried to cut the military under Bush - do you recall base realignment and closure aka BRAC? Rumsfield tried and caught nothing but flack for that. It is on the table again but the first round is making alliance members pay (which won't be enough mind you).

Quote:
Among climate scientists, which is the group of scientists we should be listening to regarding the climate, not engineers and the like, it IS issue #1.
Not my cup of tea and too many activists for me. I do my part. Recycle, use solar, use heavy appliances off peak hours, water less, flush appropriately. Man does impact. You can't control other countries. You get the idea. The part you control, everyone should do. Outside of that I think people are over reacting to what the current administration has done.

Time will tell.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03/29/2017, 06:36 PM   #75
saf1
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: California
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally Posted by HippieSmell View Post
How about complete climate change denial and modern day digital book burning? https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...g-my-citations
Forgot I meant to answer this one too. Tell the researcher his/her data is safe. The lads and lasses over in /r/DataHorder have it covered They have been actively stashing the data on their servers along with prioritization of data interesting enough.

If they feel something is missed they might want to post in the thread they have there to get it. Got to love the internet.


__________________
-saf1

Current Tank Info: 40 breeder w/LEDs (Upgrade in progress. 30" H x 54" W x 30" D 240 or so gallons)
saf1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:25 PM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2017 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright 1999-2014