Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System - Page 12

jdieck · 07/20/2007, 09:02 AM

Obi-Dad there is a couple of posibilities:
a) There is unnoticed precipitation, Inspect pumps and heaters
b) The baking Soda has not fully transformed into Calcium Carbonate. Extend the time of baking by 50%
c) The tank is so loaded that you might be getting above 3.5 dKh per day. When my system was heavy loaded with corals overflowing their place my consumption reached 4.2 dKh per day.
d) A lot of Nitrification going that consummes a lot of alkalinity. Usually the guilty are mechanical filters, bio-balls, ceramic biological media being used.

RichConley · 07/20/2007, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rovert
I'd say I'm not the one who has the gift for disparate fruit comparisons. Protest as you may, but sophomoric rhetorical techniques don't change the fact that DIY is DIY, and your self-confessed inability to fathom a way to make your own reactor from any number of plans that are available doesn't change the reality that it's successfully done all the time. Since we're on fruit analogies, I'd file your reply under 'sour grapes'.

As to your protest that math can be 'manipulated', in case you didn't notice, the only thing that's being manipulated here is the truth. For the rest of us, a jaunt over to the hardware Buy/Sell forum will tell you that my numbers are spot-on.

Rovert, the problem is that the Margin For Error in building a DIY calcium reactor is very small, because of the fact that it is pressurized. Building DIY kalk reactors, or using dosing pumps, is a completely different story.

Rovert · 07/20/2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
Rovert, the problem is that the Margin For Error in building a DIY calcium reactor is very small, because of the fact that it is pressurized. Building DIY kalk reactors, or using dosing pumps, is a completely different story.

Nevertheless, what I'm pointing out is:

1) Used reactors are very affordable, and the cost comparisons that have been made have all been done assuming list price.

2) There are, in fact, those who can make a reactor as a DIY solution.

3) That 2 part systems are a low-tech solution and comparing them to reactors is as disproportional as it would be to compare a wall unit from Ikea to an armoire from Maurice Villency.

RichConley · 07/20/2007, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rovert

3) That 2 part systems are a low-tech solution and comparing them to reactors is as disproportional as it would be to compare a wall unit from Ikea to an armoire from Maurice Villency. [/B]

And you're talking about this thread jumping the shark?

Reactors are no more high-tech than 2-part. Theyre just significantly more expensive. Peristaltic pumps are MUCH higher quality pieces of equipment than any Ca Reactor you can buy.

sirreal63 · 07/20/2007, 02:20 PM

Rich...do you ever agree with anything anyone says? lol

Snarkys · 07/20/2007, 02:28 PM

Quote:

3) That 2 part systems are a low-tech solution

many of us would consider this to be a positive thing. The higher tech you go the more stuff there is to mess with and possibly go wrong. many people prefer to keep it as simple as possible, hence the popularity of kalkwasser in top off water. that's about as low tech as you get and extremely effective for low to medium consumption tanks.

RichConley · 07/20/2007, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sirreal63
Rich...do you ever agree with anything anyone says? lol

Theres two reasons I consistently disagree with people:

1) What theyre saying violates the laws of physics. Most commonly conservation of energy (pump heats, light heat, etc).

2) Theyre spouting inanity, like comparing topoff methods to ikea furniture.

Rover is trying to basically suggest that 2-part isnt "classy". Its not "sophisticated". C'mon.

jdieck · 07/20/2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
... Rover is trying to basically suggest that 2-part isnt "classy". Its not "sophisticated". C'mon.

I would love to see how far apples, oranges, Ikea and Maurice Villency end up in our aquariums

In any case I think the point has been made that all methods have their place in the hobby and although all work rather properly when done correctly one might be more suitable than the other for a particular circumstance. It is to the hobbyist, to research and recognize the set of circumstances that will tip the choice of one over the other.

sirreal63 · 07/20/2007, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck
In any case I think the point has been made that all methods have their place in the hobby and although all work rather properly when done correctly one might be more suitable than the other for a particular circumstance. It is to the hobbyist, to research and recognize the set of circumstances that will tip the choice of one over the other.

This is exactly right IMHO...do what works for you. If the two part is a hassle for you then find a good reactor, it doesn't have to be a huge investment either way.

Siffy · 07/20/2007, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
1) What theyre saying violates the laws of physics.

Oh, are we not allowed to do that? Come on, everyone's doing it, join along.

I have to go install a top off reservoir in a lazy boy now.

Rovert · 07/20/2007, 04:24 PM

Clearly some people 'round these parts have difficulty grasping metaphors. I'll pick someting easier to understand next time.

medic29 · 07/20/2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by RichConley
Reactors are no more high-tech than 2-part. Theyre just significantly more expensive.

Man, you hit the nail right on the head there. The reactors are not really high tech, which begs the question....why in the world does everyone charge so much? Probably less than $75-100 at most involved in supplies to build the reactor at retail prices!

The person who can built a decent skimmer can most definitely build a decent reactor.

As for the peristaltic pumps....they are incredibly basic as well...if you have ever taken one apart. Just a 12v motor that turns around at a slow rate, which is variable due to circuitry. Then the programming for the chip. Not a much to it.

sirreal63 · 07/20/2007, 05:28 PM

They charge so much for reactors because people will pay it.

davidryder · 07/20/2007, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck
I would love to see how far apples, oranges, Ikea and Maurice Villency end up in our aquariums

Quote:

Originally posted by jdieck

In any case I think the point has been made that all methods have their place in the hobby and although all work rather properly when done correctly one might be more suitable than the other for a particular circumstance. It is to the hobbyist, to research and recognize the set of circumstances that will tip the choice of one over the other.

Right! That point has been crystallized for some time now... at least I thought.

Quote:

Originally posted by Rovert
Clearly some people 'round these parts have difficulty grasping metaphors. I'll pick someting easier to understand next time.

How considerate!!! Or at least mix them up a little bit

medic29 · 07/20/2007, 05:34 PM

So true!!! Just like the metal halide bulbs. Ever go get one for a lamp in a gymnasium or parking lot??? Significantly cheaper!!!

I guess it just goes to show...we as hobbiest basically set the prices. If we are willing to pay the price....the manufacturer will charge it.

This reminds me of pro sports. A kid can't afford to go to a pro baseball game anymore....not with those prices. Why the price..well look at what the players receive. If fans will pay it, they will demand it.

That sounds just like what I had said earlier.

NanoCube-boy · 07/20/2007, 11:34 PM

where is Randy's recipe?
I never really understand how calcium react work? What they run on? what's in it...?

Siffy · 07/21/2007, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by NanoCube-boy
where is Randy's recipe?

http://reefcentral.com/forums/showth...hreadid=102605
Scroll down to "Calcium and Alkalinity".

Quote:

Originally posted by NanoCube-boy I never really understand how calcium react work?

Creating carbonic acid by injecting high amounts of CO2 into a somewhat isolated amount of saltwater. This lowers the pH of that saltwater and dissolves the media inside. A small portion of the isolated water is returned to the tank saturated with Ca and CO3 and more tank water is introduced into the reactor.

Quote:

Originally posted by NanoCube-boy What they run on?

Magic. er, Chemistry. But the main parts are ARM (Aragonite Reactor Media), Carbon Dioxide, and NaClH2O.

Quote:

Originally posted by NanoCube-boy what's in it...?

http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewIt...ct~CS0525.html
Dead corals... Mostly Calcium Carbonate, but also Magnesium, Strontium, and a bunch of trace elements.

NanoCube-boy · 07/21/2007, 11:42 AM

Siffy, Thanks for the replied.
Do you change the ARM often or just leave it? So it needs co2 in order to be in used?

sirreal63 · 07/21/2007, 11:57 AM

The media dissolves (which is where the calcium and alk come from) so it has to be replenished. The co2 is used to lower the ph of the water in the reactor low enough to cause the media to slowly dissolve. Simple chemistry. :-)

NanoCube-boy · 07/21/2007, 12:53 PM

nice. thanks for the replied.

Drewcipher · 07/21/2007, 12:55 PM

Well, I must say that despite some of the stuff going on here, I think I am going with a reactor. I like the idea of the 2 parts simplicity, but it doesn't seem that it will be the right thing for a 225 tank and 300 gallons of water volume. We will be populated with primarily LPS, so we should have a pretty high consumption.

Out of curiosity, when buying bulk 2 part to mix yourself, how many gallons, does a 50 lbs bag make? What is the mix ration?

NanoCube-boy · 07/21/2007, 01:00 PM

Drewcipher, I think you are on the right track with me. If you have a tank over 100, you must go with the reactor because dosing a part 1 and 2 for tanks these big might end your wallet and time to making sure it's balance.

sirreal63 · 07/21/2007, 01:30 PM

FWIW there is a thread in the sps keepers forum where people are posting pics of their tanks and listing their equipment. I was curious who was dosing and who had a Rx...the results are interesting but should by no means indicate one is better than the other.

31 people listed specifically which they used, some did not and were left out of the tally.
26 people use a reactor
4 dose a 2-part
1 relied on kalk alone

All of the tanks posted are stunning and further proof that both ways do work. I did find it interesting that the vast majority of the people posting there use a reactor.

NanoCube-boy · 07/21/2007, 07:48 PM

Well, what ever works, it work... I use dosing myself, but it's up to people who feel what they want to do. Dosing or Rxing... It's all good...

RichConley · 07/21/2007, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by NanoCube-boy
Drewcipher, I think you are on the right track with me. If you have a tank over 100, you must go with the reactor because dosing a part 1 and 2 for tanks these big might end your wallet and time to making sure it's balance.

FWIW, based on the prices I can get dowflake, etc, locally, the Two-Part price NEVER goes above the Ca Reactor price.

So, if you can get dowflake and the other ingredients locally, and cheap, its still an option for very large tanks. If you cant get it locally, and have a big tank with high demand, the Ca Rx is definitely going to be cheaper in the long run.

07/20/2007, 09:02 AM	#276
jdieck Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Maumee, OH Posts: 15,673	Obi-Dad there is a couple of posibilities: a) There is unnoticed precipitation, Inspect pumps and heaters b) The baking Soda has not fully transformed into Calcium Carbonate. Extend the time of baking by 50% c) The tank is so loaded that you might be getting above 3.5 dKh per day. When my system was heavy loaded with corals overflowing their place my consumption reached 4.2 dKh per day. d) A lot of Nitrification going that consummes a lot of alkalinity. Usually the guilty are mechanical filters, bio-balls, ceramic biological media being used. __________________ Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium

07/20/2007, 02:20 PM	#280
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	Rich...do you ever agree with anything anyone says? lol __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/20/2007, 04:24 PM	#286
Rovert Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Pike County, PA Posts: 1,774	Clearly some people 'round these parts have difficulty grasping metaphors. I'll pick someting easier to understand next time. __________________ "Following the path of least resistance is what makes rivers, and men, crooked."

07/20/2007, 05:28 PM	#288
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	They charge so much for reactors because people will pay it. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/20/2007, 05:34 PM	#290
medic29 Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Pesotum, IL Posts: 2,478	So true!!! Just like the metal halide bulbs. Ever go get one for a lamp in a gymnasium or parking lot??? Significantly cheaper!!! I guess it just goes to show...we as hobbiest basically set the prices. If we are willing to pay the price....the manufacturer will charge it. This reminds me of pro sports. A kid can't afford to go to a pro baseball game anymore....not with those prices. Why the price..well look at what the players receive. If fans will pay it, they will demand it. That sounds just like what I had said earlier. __________________ Rick Current Tank Info: 20 gal display w/10 gal sump.

07/20/2007, 11:34 PM	#291
NanoCube-boy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,930	where is Randy's recipe? I never really understand how calcium react work? What they run on? what's in it...?

07/21/2007, 11:42 AM	#293
NanoCube-boy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,930	Siffy, Thanks for the replied. Do you change the ARM often or just leave it? So it needs co2 in order to be in used?

07/21/2007, 11:57 AM	#294
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	The media dissolves (which is where the calcium and alk come from) so it has to be replenished. The co2 is used to lower the ph of the water in the reactor low enough to cause the media to slowly dissolve. Simple chemistry. :-) __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/21/2007, 12:53 PM	#295
NanoCube-boy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,930	nice. thanks for the replied.

07/21/2007, 12:55 PM	#296
Drewcipher Premium Member Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bailey, CO Posts: 896	Well, I must say that despite some of the stuff going on here, I think I am going with a reactor. I like the idea of the 2 parts simplicity, but it doesn't seem that it will be the right thing for a 225 tank and 300 gallons of water volume. We will be populated with primarily LPS, so we should have a pretty high consumption. Out of curiosity, when buying bulk 2 part to mix yourself, how many gallons, does a 50 lbs bag make? What is the mix ration? __________________ Drew I'm growing older but not up My metabolic rate is pleasantly stuck Let those winds of time blow over my head I'd rather die while I'm living than live while I'm dead--Jimmy Buffett Current Tank Info: 75 gallon, Red Sea Max, setting up a 180

07/21/2007, 01:00 PM	#297
NanoCube-boy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,930	Drewcipher, I think you are on the right track with me. If you have a tank over 100, you must go with the reactor because dosing a part 1 and 2 for tanks these big might end your wallet and time to making sure it's balance.

07/21/2007, 01:30 PM	#298
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	FWIW there is a thread in the sps keepers forum where people are posting pics of their tanks and listing their equipment. I was curious who was dosing and who had a Rx...the results are interesting but should by no means indicate one is better than the other. 31 people listed specifically which they used, some did not and were left out of the tally. 26 people use a reactor 4 dose a 2-part 1 relied on kalk alone All of the tanks posted are stunning and further proof that both ways do work. I did find it interesting that the vast majority of the people posting there use a reactor. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/21/2007, 07:48 PM	#299
NanoCube-boy Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: San Francisco Posts: 1,930	Well, what ever works, it work... I use dosing myself, but it's up to people who feel what they want to do. Dosing or Rxing... It's all good...