Tested detritus-filled water

[Bilk]

Did some cleaning of the sump earlier and decided to test the water that was drawn out using my little shop-vac. I passed it thru a coffee filter to remove suspended solids and performed a ULR Hanna test on it.

I first tested the tank water drawn directly from the tank and then tested the nasty, yellow-tinted water drawn from the bottom of the sump after I filtered it as mentioned.

Results? Both read the same 13ppb. Maybe another test would show different results of I let the detritus sit in the water for an hour or more? I think I'll test NO3 and see what results I get as well.

Question - if indeed detritus is filled with measurable organics such as PO4 and NO3, when or should I ask, how soon after, does it reach the water column? It's near impossible to extract detritus as it forms, so I'm questioning the common belief that detritus, if left unchecked and if my testing methodology was an accurate way to determine what is being released, should be such a concern.

I really expected to get different results considering the sludge I removed ( I generally do this once every two weeks or so ) was yellowed somewhat and had a large concentration of detritus.

[Captainsreef]

A good clean up crew will do a lot of work for you and running micro socks when you clean and stir it up helps a lot as well.

[Captainsreef]

People often neglect their clean up crews and should be adding things like micro stars and tapes clams etc. The higher the index of species diversity the lower the liklihood that catastrophic failure will result. It helps the tank to work more like an ecosystem leaving you with smaller amounts of maintaining to do. You of course will still have to clean a d you might cut down on feeding as well as it sounds like you might be overfeeding your tank.

[bertoni]

The phosphate that you measured most likely is immediately available to the water column, but the lack of flow keeps it in the detritus zone. Personally, if the tank is doing well enough, I wouldn't worry. The sand bed in my tanks seemed to have some interstitial phosphate in it, but the water column always was clean while I was making those measurements. It's also possible that the siphoning and filtering process ground up some cells, etc, and released some phosphate.

A cleanup crew might be able to help process detritus, but if the tank is doing well enough, there's likely no need to spend money on such animals.

[Captainsreef]

Actually I would place clean up crew at the highest of priorities so I wouldn't listen to that advice. Cheers!
like I said the higher the index of species diversity the lower the likelihood of catastrophic failure and when we make a reef tank we are basically creating an artificially contained eco system. So of course a clean up crew becomes paramount and plays a very important role. This will help you and help push your tank over the top. Cheers!

[Bilk]

LOL well a cleanup crew isn't the issue I wanted to discuss. I actually have a pretty good CC - various crabs, stars, snails and a few cucumbers. Detritus is an inevitable fact no matter how many CC are employed in a system.

What I really want to discuss is the PO4 issue in relation to detritus and the accepted belief that detritus accumulation leads to elevated levels of PO4. I was wondering why the water I tested, that was extracted with the detritus from the sump, didn't test any differently than the tank water. I figured the large concentration of detritus, relative to the volume of water in the small shop-vac, would have caused a much higher reading of PO4 than what the normal tank reading shows. Is there a better method to test this? Did I need to leave the detritus in the water longer before filtering it? Also, as I stated in the OP, detritus is constantly being produced in every system and it's virtually impossible to capture it as it is being produced. So with that in mind, how long does it take for detritus, if indeed filled with PO4, to release that PO4 to the water column? If it's immediately then there's nothing that can be done about it unless you can capture and remove from the system, all the detritus as it forms. A filter sock does not remove it from the water column - immediately - as the sock remains in the water column until removed.

[bertoni]

Detritus consists of a variety of things, so I don't think a general rule about its dissolved nutrient contents is going to hold except as a statistical average. Sorry, I misunderstood your original post, but I'm not surprised either way. If the detritus gets a reasonable amount of flow through it, then the dissolved nutrients will equilibrate with the water column quickly. In my case, the sand kept flow low enough that the interstitial water was higher in phosphate than the water column. In your case, that doesn't seem to be true.

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Captainsreef

Actually I would place clean up crew at the highest of priorities so I wouldn't listen to that advice. Cheers!
like I said the higher the index of species diversity the lower the likelihood of catastrophic failure and when we make a reef tank we are basically creating an artificially contained eco system. So of course a clean up crew becomes paramount and plays a very important role. This will help you and help push your tank over the top. Cheers!

sure but what happens to it after the cleanup crew have went through it? a CUC will help with uneaten organics for sure but they are not %100 efficient and the cuc themselves also create their own waste byproduct so at some point all the processing thats going to happen has happened and whats left may not break down any further and some animals may not consume whats left , whether or not you remove this is up to your self but most do remove it.

[Captainsreef]

Originally Posted by reefwars

sure but what happens to it after the cleanup crew have went through it? a CUC will help with uneaten organics for sure but they are not %100 efficient and the cuc themselves also create their own waste byproduct so at some point all the processing thats going to happen has happened and whats left may not break down any further and some animals may not consume whats left , whether or not you remove this is up to your self but most do remove it.

This is true and that's where routine maintenance comes in. Or the physical removal of dirty water and organics from the aquarium by the aquarist. There is no getting over this operation as aquariums are essentially just boxes of water that have no way of ridding themselves completely of waste except by removing it through siphoning etc. However my point is that the aquarium itsel will work much better as a whole if it's properly set up.this starts by adding the correct animals in the tank to care for it and as a PhD in icthyology and fisheries management I know thatif we create a higher index of species diversity to fullfill different roles that are essential to the tank by placing them in important roles within the tank to perform their natural functionsthen the band aids of things such as reactors etc become relatively useless. The importance is what's in the tank and having a very good and diverse clean up crew is essential. I wrote an article about it in the blog at nautilusaquarium dot com awhile back and it's due for an update. Cheers!

[Bilk]

Originally Posted by bertoni

Detritus consists of a variety of things, so I don't think a general rule about its dissolved nutrient contents is going to hold except as a statistical average. Sorry, I misunderstood your original post, but I'm not surprised either way. If the detritus gets a reasonable amount of flow through it, then the dissolved nutrients will equilibrate with the water column quickly. In my case, the sand kept flow low enough that the interstitial water was higher in phosphate than the water column. In your case, that doesn't seem to be true.

OK so then it follows, that as soon as detritus is produced, it soon releases what ever bound PO4 it contains, into the water column?

Detritus is produced from many sources and in all regions of the system. So how does one prevent the PO4 bound up in the detritus from entering into the water column when it cannot reasonably be removed immediately? Even when it does make it to the weirs of the overflow and gets trapped by the filter socks, it's probably still been either sitting on the substrate or suspended in the flow for enough time to be relieved of the PO4 it contains.

I was just surprised that the reading taken from the "dirty" water was the same as that of the tank water.

[reefwars]

well not that im against a CUC i know they have their benefits but mostly they are the ones we dont see often that doing the job not the ones you buy at the store , FWIW my system of 6 yrs has no cleanup crew purchased ever only what has hitchhiked in from corals as i also use no liverock in the system , we have around a few thousand corals in our prop tanks and they all do rather well

if pellets fall to the ground a shrimp or crab etc will help take care of that , a shrimp wont devour inert ditrius that has been broken down time and time again


i get that a CUC has its place but i dont think buying hermits and snails or shrimps is a make or break scenario to keeping a healthy reef, sure doesnt hurt though ill agree

[Captainsreef]

Actually it can and that's why so many crash so often is lack of species diversity.

[usingthejohn]

Subbed for later

[Captainsreef]

I recommend sand burrowing tapes clams, micro stars, copepods micro hermit crabs, blue legged hermit crabs etc. These animals actually provide huge benefits to reef tanks and in my 24 years of building and setting up professional aquariums for people I have learned a few tricks about clean up crews and balancing reef aquariums. So out of the hundreds of reef tanks I have setup (andthats tanks of all sizes) the ones that I have instituted this type of cleanup crew have gone on to become much much better tanks all around. So food for thought. I never said they would remove all of the waste but they will make youe tank much healthier, more balanced and to function alot better as a whole and it will cut down on your work load as well because you won't have to clean it near as much.

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As folks have mentioned, detritus is all kinds of stuff.

The organic matter in it that contains organic N and P will only release those elements as it is broken down, either by biologic action, or by abiotic degradation.

Measuring the water around detritus ought to be about the same as the rest of the water, because the release of N and P will be slow and steady, and it quickly diffuses into the water column as soon as it is released. But it takes a long time for it all to be released. Hence the concerns about detritus.

That said, I'm not hyper about detritus collecting in my tank. It let it collect all it wants in my sump and refugia. There's a thick layer in my sump, and probably more in my refugia.

[bertoni]

Originally Posted by Bilk

OK so then it follows, that as soon as detritus is produced, it soon releases what ever bound PO4 it contains, into the water column?

I think Randy has already commented more carefully on what happens, but what I meant was that if there's flow through the detritus, the phosphate will equilibrate with the water column as the phosphate and nitrate (and other dissolved nutrients) are produced, so I wouldn't expect all that much of a difference between a water column test and a "detritus zone" test in a lot of cases.

I don't deny that cleanup crews can be interesting and perform useful work, but I'm not convinced that stocking more is necessarily going to help a dissolved nutrient problem. Most live rock comes with bristleworms and other small animals, and I think most (but not all) people tend to add at least a few snails and the like, as well.

[Captainsreef]

Tapes clams are great! They are captive-bred, tropical sand clams of the genus Tapes, which
actively burrow into the sand and move about by means of a strong muscular
foot. They are about 15 mm (3/4 inch) long, and they feed on plankton and
detritus by means of their incurrent siphon, which protrudes slightly from
the sand. They have smooth, attractive shells with variable color patterns.
In reef tanks and refugia their potential benefits include stirring (and
therefore aerating)

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Captainsreef

I never said they would remove all of the waste but they will make youe tank much healthier, more balanced and to function alot better as a whole and it will cut down on your work load as well because you won't have to clean it near as much.

ok so back to the glass box that like you said imports but on its own doesnt export the waste only processes it ( which is important ) , the animals you add also add waste even if they process some of the nasties they wont get it all and create a little along the way. adding animals isnt an export mechanism for the ecosystem so im not sure how adding them is make or break...especially the ones you listed as most are ornamental and are a small percentage of whats really happening in a ecosystem the real laborers are rarely ever seen

do i think a CUC is beneficial...of course it is

do i think you cant run a healthy tank without adding a CUC or purchasing one ...of course not

i would question how much a crab really eats and processes compared to what i can syphon out in 15mins....maybe im wrong though

[Captainsreef]

Read Poe and the case for biodiversity in the reef aquarium. It's an article I wrote. Cheers!

[reefwars]

Originally Posted by Captainsreef

Read Poe and the case for biodiversity in the reef aquarium. It's an article I wrote. Cheers!

will do

[reefwars]

ok so i read your article , sounds great and youv'e obviously have a passion for it but it lacks alot of information.


http://nautilusaquarium.com/poe-and-...reef-aquarium/

im assuming im reading the right article?

im not trying to be rude so i hope this doesnt come off as such but seems to me its no different then any other retailers site for CUC's and there information they provide , theres very little real data if any about what the animals do exactly and what role they play in an aquarium ,the description is rather vague..... you go on to say that equipment is but a band aid fix and the article is an article you wrote for the business you work for and conveniently enough you sell these animals no?


most of the animals listed are not in short demand in mot reefs .....pods, worms , shrimps etc. i have an abundance of these in a reef that was all dry rock , no sand and brand new equipment so if i have it surely mature reefs where the time has passed to reproduce must have more than me.

is it enough though?

if it is how do we know exactly if it is or isnt?

[Bilk]

Ah ok So would a better testing method be to leave the collected detritus in the water for a longer period before measuring? Is maintaining the same relative temperature of the tank important to this? If it's a time vs release mechanism, I assume readings at different intervals would prove necessary to somewhat determine the rate of release?

I'm really no chemist/biologist if you couldn't tell So I had to look up abiotic degradation I only found references to it relating to chemicals, plastics and the like. Wiki had an article that has since been removed. Here's the initial definition:

Abiotic decomposition
Abiotic decomposition or abiotic degradation is degradation of a substance by chemical or physical processes, for example hydrolysis, reduction and oxidation.

So what precipitates the breakdown or release of the bound PO4/NO3? I'd assume bacteria act upon detrital matter, but then the PO4/No3 are being consumed. I can also see how acidification would cause it to be released, but our systems are alkaline. Does acidification happen in a localized region where detritus accumulates?

I guess what I'm trying to convey is, we believe that detrital matter has bound N&P, but what is the mechanism that releases it?

[bertoni]

The release will happen due to microbial action and bulk flow, I'd guess, but small animals might do some of the work, too. I have no idea of the time vs percentage released chart might look.

[Captainsreef]

Actually I sold the animals for a little while but we ran out of stock within 2 weeks and we do not sell live animals anymore. Mainly we sell tanks and dry goods and a lot of the articles have nothing to do with anything that we sell. They are just meant to be Informative. So with that said it's more about imparting information than anything. As for vague points if you give me examples I can certainly supply you with information. Cheers!

[reefwars]

I'm not sure adding animals you can't keep track of is a wise idea , for example the brittle stars I've seen them wipe a tank out smothered every available inch of space even the gorgs had stars wrapped around them. You have a recommendation of how many to add for example but yet say nothing of how fast they reproduce or the consequences of that or how to fix it etc.


Some of those animals also have risks that should be known , more detail on lifespans etc.

If you start a thread on it I'd love to hear about the systems and how these were the reason for success with them