Dead again

[Ab129]

So I’ve been having this ongoing algae problem and been manually removing what I can from time to time. While vacuuming out today I accidentally sucked up a small rbta that was bleached and just sitting on the sand.
I was collecting the algae in a filter sock and when I was finished I dug out the anemone and dropped him back in the tank.
A little while later I noticed my clowns and my puffer were hiding in the rocks.
My tang and trigger seemed fine. Clowns and puffer didn’t come out to eat, tang and trigger ate.
Then a little later I noticed the puffer didn’t look good at all. Just laying on his side in the sand. At the same time my trigger was going into convulsions in the rocks and my tang was not looking good, at the surface looking like he couldn’t breathe.
2 hours later and the tang, trigger and puffer are gone.
Clowns are presumed dead, haven’t been seen.
The only possible conclusion I can come to is some kind of poisoning from the anemone.
I am beside myself.
After losing my whole tank, except for the tang, to ich a year and a half ago I have been so careful with TTM and quarantine only to be undone by this.
I am going to take a few months off and restock in the fall.
What do I need to do between now and then to make sure I won’t have any problems with my new fish?

[Sk8r]

When an anemone dies, not only does it start decomposing nastily spreading biologics, all the hundreds of stinging cells are released into the water as it shreds, and they are 'biomechanical,' meaning they function by tension, and when disturbed or breathed in, even though they're dead, they fire like little grenades, poisoning what they strike. Anemones are hard to handle in tanks with coral, and hard to manage in general. I've been at this for decades, and nems still make me nervous when settling one in. They can wipe out a tank in a matter of hours. My best advice is no anemones. Clowns will settle on almost anything anemone-like, (mine have simply laid claim to a cave in dispute with a gramma)---and if it's a mushroom, or regular coral, or even a hole in the rocks, that's without the risk.

So sorry. I had a similar experience way back when.

[Maxxumless]

Really sorry to hear about this. Really sucks.

The one thing that has saved me is having an extra tank in storage, enough pre-made saltwater to fill that tank and an "emergency kit". The kit is basically a bottle of bacteria, pH buffer (to make freshwater dip), and a few other things like meds, Prime and poly pad. If anything goes wrong, the emergency tank can be up and running in less than an hour. This extra tank also serves as my hospital/observation tank. It isn't anything special. Just a 10g with a HOB filter and heater.

I've heard good things about Vibrant for algae problems.

Many people stop testing for ammonia and nitrites after the cycle is done and sometimes experience 'mysterious' die-offs. Something could have died and you had a huge ammonia spike. That could kill everything that fast. Test ammonia, nitrites, nitrates and ALK any time animals look stressed!

Again, really sorry this happened.

[Posseidon]

I’m sorry to hear what you’ve gone through. It is hard indeed.
I have a suggestion meanwhile based on my experience. My tank was running fine for a long time too and then I had a bad break of green hair algae, Dino and Cyano. They must have come with some some new corals or Chaeto I added without doing any coral dip. Anyways, long story short, I lost a lot of corals due to thick Cyano and Dinos. My fish were doing fine.
So, I took this opportunity to reset my tank ecosystem. In your case, you’ll have to do some 30% water change and use carbon in a reactor to take out the toxins before trying my method below.
I turned off the lights for 4 days giving those pesky pests a hard time to thrive. And then from fifth day, with the lights still out, I started dosing liquid carbon to support bacterial growth to outcompete the Cyano and Dino. I used RedSea NoPox to be safe but you can choose sugar or vinegar if preferred. The idea was to promote bacteria that can dissolve the dying Dino, Cyano and GHA. Basically, get their nemesis up in the tank. Feeding fish as usual, I didn’t care the nitrates and phosphates going high. Then, at two weeks mark my tank looked a lot clean. I did a water change and started bringing back the lights slowly at 10% intensity and increasing it every four days. In 2 months my lights were at good intensity. My nutrients were still high but none of those Cyano, Dino or GHA came back. In another month the nutrient levels dropped due to continued use of NoPox.
So, now I know that if my nutrient swings up or down, I have a good bacterial population to manage it and outcompete others. Some corals had survived this and started coming back. New corals are happy in the system. Fish were not impacted.

Hope you get a few good hints from this.

Good luck and don’t give up.


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[Ab129]

Thanks so much for the replies.
I was thinking shouldn’t the clowns be immune to the anemones poison?
I twice dreamt last night that I got up this morning and my clowns were alive. Checked when I woke up and saw nothing.
Just got home from a mountain bike ride and holy $@&)$&&!
My clowns are out !!!
I am mixing salt water right now.
What should I do?? Try to move them to a temporary tank or try some water changes? I can have a temp tank setup in a couple of hours but a 20 gallon water change I can’t do until late tonight or tomorrow morning.
I don’t know if this means they weathered the storm or if I need to get them out ASAP.

[Tcook]

I would move them to a QT tank. Then you can work on the display without "rushing" to save the clowns.

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[Sk8r]

Your clowns have survived because they cultivate a super-thick slime coat, which is how they defend themselves against anemones. Beware of anything that could lessen that defense until you can get them into clean new water. Best of luck in organizing a recovery!

[Ab129]

Lfs said do a 20% change and throw a bag of carbon in for 6 weeks what do you think?
They won’t be easy to get out but if you think I have to I will try.

[Sk8r]

Put a superfine filter like a filter sock on the system: that should catch any floating 'grenades', and the carbon and natural decomposition should take care of the rest.

The 'grenades' however, may stay viable. I made the mistake of kicking a pile of dried seaweed and remains of something down at Padre Island
---which turned out to be a man o war jelly. My shin contacted the stuff, and stinging cells from a creature not only dead but dried out to paper fired and caught me in a nice and very painful string of stings which I nursed for days. So respect the departed nem, and I'd stir the water enough to be sure anything remaining is caught in the filters. Posthumous revenge of that nem is not to be discounted.

[Ab129]

Have a filter sock installed on my main drain in the sump.
So you think I will be ok with the water change, carbon and filter socks and I can leave the clowns in the DT?
And should I just chia k the next few filter socks just to be safe?

[Ab129]

That should read “chuck” the next few filter socks

[Sk8r]

Just run the socks through the washer and treat with Prime (chlorine remover). I'd go ahead and leave them in there, balancing the danger (diminished now) versus stress to the clowns. I think they should be all right after the measures you're taking.

[hhaase]

Ab, those of us who've had similar events are all here for you. At the same time, I'm glad to hear the clowns pulled through.

Personally, I think that's far too long for the carbon bag to sit in this situation, I'd change the carbon weekly for 6 weeks.

Also, if you're not doing it already, actively test your ammonia daily for a while as it WILL be spiking from the livestock loss and your tank will be going through a mini-cycle as it re-balances.

[Ab129]

Thank you again so much for the replies!!
Can’t tell you how awesome it is that you guys are willing to come on here and take the time to walk people through their fish issues.
Happy to be part of this community!
🐟

[Ab129]

Update and question

The clowns are doing fine.
Since the incident I have done 3 water changes. 30%, 20%, and 15%
I am starting to think about adding a fish or two but I want to be sure that the stingers and poison from the anemone won’t harm any newcomers.
Sk8r’s story about kicking the dried remains has me worried.

[Sk8r]

Run filter socks, 1 micron level. And do a light (1/4 inch) surface stir of the sandbed several times while you're running the socks. That should get any residual.

[Ab129]

Thanks!
So I will stir this the next 3 times I do a water change and keep my fingers crossed 🤞

[Ab129]

I think I’m xxx done.
I had difficulty finding the reeflux so I ordered flux rx.
Same active ingredient.
Followed directions to the letter, put it in the tank last night.
Come home from work tonight, 24 hours later, and my clowns are both up at the surface gasping for air.
Quickly transferred them to a 10 gallon tank with clean water.
The male passed away an hour later.
Female will probably go tomorrow, if not tonight.
Marine depot says they never heard of this happening. Says I should call manufacturer and see what they say.
No one can convince me that this is not related to the product.
For both of these fish to go from perfectly fine to exhibiting the same symptoms at the same time.
How the xxxx does this happen?

[Sk8r]

Reeflux is valid against only one type of algae, and I would have advised against adding it after the problem with the anemone. So sorry for the outcome after so much good had happened. Let everything run its course, do some massive water changes, run carbon for 5 days, and your tank should settle again. Start with a quarantine protocol for the fish and just don't add anything to the tank this round: just clean water and a good balance of alk, cal, mg. Algae is a minor and solvable problem, and sometimes identifying which algae you have is no slamdunk. You might want to add a lawnmower blenny and just let him work on the problem as soon as they have satisfied quarantine: the lawnmowers eat algae, any sort.

[Ab129]

Blue life said that the product does not affect fish. They said that perhaps my aquarium lacked sufficient oxygen with the skimmer turned off and suggested installing a powerhead. I have an Icecap gyre, my returns are only about 1.5 - 2 inches below the surface and I have a small fan blowing down on the surface to keep the water temp down because it’s been in the 90s here for most of the last 2 weeks. I don’t think that was the issue. And if it was the issue then why did my fish die an hour after I removed him from the DT into a 10 gallon with fresh water and an airstone?
And also just curious, why would you have advised against it considering what happened with the anemone?

[Sk8r]

OMG, the skimmer. 7/10th of the oxygen supplied to the tank, from a potent skimmer. That was one major blow. Any temperature above 83 is bad. AND reduces the amount of oxygen the water can carry, though the fan will have helped. My notion on the subsequent death is still oxygen deprivation coupled with everything else that had happened. You still did right to try to remedy it. If the clown had had more fight left he might have made it.

Don'tever cut the skimmer off. If you have to treat, hospital tank with an airstone, which doesn't take away the med, ane can run full bore (but put a mesh screen between airstone and fish. Not good for them to play in.

The reason for my statement about the treatment is that there had just been too much life-threatening change in that tank already, and meds are stress to the body. Remember meds function is just to kill the problem before it kills you---and if the fish is too weak, it can push them to the edge and over. There's a maxim us old ice skaters made up---nothing good happens fast on the ice, or in tank-keeping. Better to let the least threatening problem lie until everything more urgent is handled and back to optimum, in order of critical to life, and go slow. Very slow, and consult with RC if it's a life-or-death emergency. Be REAL careful and consult if its something you're going to change or alter for the whole tank. ---Also, ask, before buying any 'cure' that fish store recommends. They don't know your tank; and instructions on the label are based on optimum conditions---without explaining that skimmers and temperature affect oxygenation profoundly. Post here and ask and we can give you the down side as well as the good.

[Ab129]

I did not know that the skimmer supplied that much oxygen. learn something new every day.
Knowing that now, I cannot understand why there is no caution about that on the medication. That maybe it might be a good idea to throw in an airstone. How can they tell you to turn off your skimmer and not mention this??
They feel it’s necessary to tell me not to spoon feed this fish medicine to small children, for Christ’s sake!
For what it’s worth they will get a piece of my mind about this.
The girl seems to be doing well in qt.
And just to clarify I meant that the outdoor temps
here have been over 90, the water in the tank never went above 80.5 degrees.

[Sk8r]

Yep. Depends on your skimmer and how 'tight' a foam it produces, but it does oxygenate; cheatomorpha algae does, and gas exchange at the surface (waterfalls, energetic water)---but yes, it's one of my gripes that, be it salt or koi pond, they tell you to be CAREFUL of oxygenation, but giving enough information for a new user---no, they don't. You're not born knowing that a skimmer supplies oxygen: you pick that knowledge up from other reefers. But oh, no, they're not responsible for telling you that. The fish-hobby industry is NOT regulated by the FDA or other agencies that normally warn us about drugs and interactions and problems, and the problems range from little companies that hang out a shingle and promote something with wild claims; to the big guys who don't want to get dauntingly technical and scary in their warnings---like: own a skimmer; or high temperatures will reduce oxygen. Etc. If your lfs doesn't give you those warnings, either, you're kind of SOL. RC exists to exchange info, both known stuff and near-experimental stuff. Best advice I can give is to check out any med or treatment here, and be sure to include things like 'this is a [fish-only] tank' or 'This tank is 10 years old...' Helps get 'appropriate' advice.

Another good idea is exactly what you and I have done, which is to put detailed tank info in the sig line. And you should add your Magnesium test results there at the last, just for completion.