Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by Adamc1303

Does it only have to be underwater to create a full siphon if the primary fails? I am not too worried about that because I still have the dry line too.

Don't be lured in by improper implementations of this system. They do not work as this system is supposed to, and you should always have a concerns about ANY of the three lines failing. Bean and I both have had two lines fail at the same time. Run enough of these system and it WILL happen to you, or the odds could fall against you, and it will happen with just the single system you are running.

Whether or not the outlets are submerged is up to you; however, if both the siphon and open channel do not terminate in the same body of water, the system cannot be expected to function properly. This has been made very clear many many times.

Running any of the drain lines over roller mats, reactors. through a skimmer, or any other type of equipment, is NOT "lines terminating in the same body of water." This will cause the system to not function properly. There is an intimate interaction between the siphon and open channel, and doing the above alters the physics of the system, and alters the interaction between the two drain lines. Also, when properly adjusted, there is not enough flow in the open channel to feed any auxiliary equipment in an efficient and effective manner. The dry emergency outlet location is not a concern, so long as it drains the overflow box in siphon mode, when needed. It makes no sense to run the dry emergency through another piece of equipment, as in normal operation, there will be no flow in it.

It is a poor practice to feed any type of equipment (other than a sump,) including a skimmer, with any type of drain line, as drain lines are mission critical components of the system. If you have a piece of equipment that is just too tempting to run off a drain line, but you just don't want to run another pump, consider running it on a branch from the main return line (up sizing the return pump accordingly,) or just eliminate that piece of equipment--you probably don't need it anyway.

I understand that BRS is running one of the drain lines over a roller mat. This is an improper implementation of the system, and it cannot be expected to function properly. There are only two reliable sources of information on this drain system: The main BA thread (a long read), and Bean's website. These are the only places you will be certain to find someone that actually knows how this system is supposed to work, and how to get it to do so.

[Ted_C]

I'd like to see if I could get some advice / validation on a design idea I have and some issues I'm currently having.

My build is a 310 gallon display with a beananimal design. I am currently running two Waveline DC 12000 as my returns. I have a coast to coast low profile internal overflow plumbed through the tank to an external overflow box which I'm draining back into the sump.

I've tried the straight beananimal setup and I'm getting too much flow going through my open channel - which is causing some noise that's aggravating. Part of this is I can't put any more flow through the siphon because of the height of the overflow box.

Here are my ideas on how to rectify:
Full Siphon - replace the plumbing to get it lower in the overflow box.
Open Channel - increase the height in the box and cut some holes in the external overflow box lid to make it fit.
4th channel: install a gate valve in an additional drain pipe that allows a controlled "trickle" so I can adjust the flow entering the open channel.

this is really the only pic I can provide of what I'm working with:

[Rybren]

Are you saying that with the valve on the siphon wide open, there is too much flow for it to handle so a lot of it is going through the open channel?

If this is the case, then the only 2 options that I can thing of are:

a. Change the siphon pipe to something larger (would be hard to do as the smaller bulkhead will still limit flow), or

b. Reduce the flow from the returns.

Why are you running two return pumps?

[Ted_C]

opening the siphon lets air into the siphon. The height of the siphon and the height of the open channel are near identical (the open channel is 1/4" higher in the box).

[Rybren]

The height of the open channel and siphon seem fine.

To tune the BA, you first start with the valve on the Siphon wide open. Then you slowly start closing it until the water level in the overflow box rises until it is approximately at the middle of the Siphon elbow. Let the system settle down.

If the Siphon can't purge the air, then close the valve a bit more then observe.

If the open channel has too many bubbles coming out of it in the sump, then open the valve a bit and observe.

It will take some tweaking of the valve to find the sweet spot. But once you find it, then you likely won't have to adjust it again.

[pweissma]

Seeking advice ...

I have a beananimal overflow running beautifully on my 60g via an external box, similar to the ghost overflow, except mine was made by Exotic Marine Systems. My drain is 3/4" and my open channel and emergency are 1". Sump is about 7' below the tank water surface on a shelf in my basement. Flow is ~500 gph.

My question: I would like to T-off the return line for a carbon/gfo reactor I'm concerned that changes in the back pressure from the reactor would destabilize the system requiring occasional adjustment of the return pump (Vectra M1) or gate valve. I really want the system to remain set and forget. I don't want to need to tweak after a media change and at some point between media changes. If this is the case than I would prefer to keep running the reactor with it's own pump.

Is this a real concern? I greatly the appreciate your help.

[BeanAnimal]

The system is inherently self adjusting and can accommodate variations in flow. Seven feet of head will generate a fairly large force and that may help stabilize the overall system flow due to small differences in reactor flow (media clogging over time).

In other words, I don't see the harm in trying, but don't be overly surprised if you lose the stability of a perfect tune and drift between bubble injection - dead silence - almost silent.

[Xenaph]

Hi Everyone,

I read almost the half of this thread a lot of information, good stuff.
I allow myself to ask 1-2 questions about this system, i'm in process to order a new tank (44"x24"x20") (LxWxH) custom made.

It will be an external overflow like this picture:



1- With my 24" width, what is the dimension of the box as i need to prevent flood ? (The return line will be on the same side of the overflow box)

2- Do a slim overflow inside the tank is an good idea ? I'm planning to do a planted tank instead of saltwater tank.

3- In this case, 1.5" or 1" pipe ?

Thanks,

Xenaph

[SpikeDangles]

After two years of planning and building my system I have run into an issue with the return pump.

40 breeder with coast to coast overflow feeding to an external box with 1" bean animal drains going straight down through the top of the stand into the sump.

Return line is a short run of 1" hose to 1" pvc running about 4ft to a single outlet into the tank. There is also a manifold hooked up where the hose meets the rigid plumbing.

I was sold a Jebao DCT6000 from another reefer second hand. He said he was using it on a 40b with no issues. I have the pump turned down to the lowest setting and it still seems way too much.


When I start the pump there is roughly 4" of water above it in the sump. Once the over flowing starts the pump quickly drains the last chamber of the sump. If I leave it sucking some air I get a rush of water out of all 3 bean animal drains and the water fills up the sump quickly. The return pump then repeats this process.

I'm wondering if I don't have enough water in the system? When I shut the pump off the water is about an 1" lower than max in the sump (after holes stop siphons).

If anyone has some insight into why this is happening and how to fix it I really need some help.



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[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by SpikeDangles

After two years of planning and building my system I have run into an issue with the return pump.

40 breeder with coast to coast overflow feeding to an external box with 1" bean animal drains going straight down through the top of the stand into the sump.

Return line is a short run of 1" hose to 1" pvc running about 4ft to a single outlet into the tank. There is also a manifold hooked up where the hose meets the rigid plumbing.

I was sold a Jebao DCT6000 from another reefer second hand. He said he was using it on a 40b with no issues. I have the pump turned down to the lowest setting and it still seems way too much.


When I start the pump there is roughly 4" of water above it in the sump. Once the over flowing starts the pump quickly drains the last chamber of the sump. If I leave it sucking some air I get a rush of water out of all 3 bean animal drains and the water fills up the sump quickly. The return pump then repeats this process.

I'm wondering if I don't have enough water in the system? When I shut the pump off the water is about an 1" lower than max in the sump (after holes stop siphons).

If anyone has some insight into why this is happening and how to fix it I really need some help.



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Not enough water in the system. Turn the system on, and add water to the sump (return section,) till the system balances out. Water in = water out, in all areas of the system. If you run dry before the water returns, not enough water in the system.

[SpikeDangles]

This worked perfectly. Now I'm having difficulty getting the open channel to run silent. The siphon and OC terminate 5/8" under the water line. The water in the external overflow comes up about 1/4 of the way on the U made out of an elbow and a street elbow. There is a 5/16" hole drilled in the U which effectively starts a siphon when I close off the main siphon drain via gate valve.

I'm wondering if there is something I missed or if I just need to fine tune it better. There is a small amount of air bubbles exiting the open chanel. Not many but one or two every few seconds.


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[jwright0291]

Was the Eshopps Eclipse Large overflow box designed to be used as a BeanAnimal style overflow?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jwright0291

Was the Eshopps Eclipse Large overflow box designed to be used as a BeanAnimal style overflow?

No. For a well operating system, the box is too small for a BA drain system to function properly. It is the same problem inherent to the Synergy or Ghost overflow, that attempted to stuff a BA system into too small of a box. The system will operate after modifications to Bean's system are made, however, the system will no longer function in the same manner as a BA system. Addressing one of these issues in the next post.

[jwright0291]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

No. For a well operating system, the box is too small for a BA drain system to function properly. It is the same problem inherent to the Synergy or Ghost overflow, that attempted to stuff a BA system into too small of a box. The system will operate after modifications to Bean's system are made, however, the system will no longer function in the same manner as a BA system. Addressing one of these issues in the next post.

So instead of buying a premade overflow box for a BA system, it would be best to diy a c2c box for your BA system?

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by SpikeDangles

This worked perfectly. Now I'm having difficulty getting the open channel to run silent. The siphon and OC terminate 5/8" under the water line. The water in the external overflow comes up about 1/4 of the way on the U made out of an elbow and a street elbow. There is a 5/16" hole drilled in the U which effectively starts a siphon when I close off the main siphon drain via gate valve.

I'm wondering if there is something I missed or if I just need to fine tune it better. There is a small amount of air bubbles exiting the open chanel. Not many but one or two every few seconds.


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Yes you missed something, and most likely you need to fiddle with the fine tuning of the system. A gate valve, rather than a ball valve, is a great help in making fine adjustments to the water level in the overflow box, which in turn determines the operating characteristics of the drain system.

For a reference, I will briefly (hopefully) reiterate the startup sequence and a couple gotchas.

Turn the pump on. Water level rises in the overflow box. You get bubbles out of the siphon, and perhaps the open channel. Water level continues to rise until water starts flowing in the dry emergency. This can continue for several minutes. Once the air is purged from the siphon, the water level will drop suddenly. Water flow in the open channel will drop to next to nothing, if any at all, because air is allowed to enter. Adjust the valve on the siphon till water just starts flowing in the open channel. The water level will be in the upper half of the elbows. (Above the point in the "standpipes", regardless of design, where the water starts heading down.)

The gotcha 1: if the air inlet to the open channel becomes occluded before the air purges from the siphon line (e.g. water level does not rise and flow in the dry emergency, and there is no sudden drop in water level,) the system is probably not going to start properly, and the open channel will take too much flow, cause air locks, etc. This can delay starting (why some feel it is necessary to raise the open channel above the siphon, drill holes in the siphon, such as with the Synergy/Ghost overflows.)

This is a very common problem found throughout Bean's thread, spoken of as the "air vent line inlet is too low in the overflow, or the air vent line is not present at all," and a simple hole in the top of the "elbow" is used without the vent line.

The air vent line is essential to the proper function of the system. The inlet to the air vent line (a length of LLDPE--Linear Low Density Polyethylene--tubing is best) should be placed above (higher) than the inlet to the dry emergency. The reason the inlet is placed higher than the inlet to the dry emergency, is that it should never become occluded (trip the open channel to siphon) unless both the siphon and dry emergency have failed.

The second gotcha, is the small external boxes folks are fond of trying to use, do not allow sufficient head height (water level) to purge the air from the system causing air locks, etc. Synergy found this out the hard way, and had to raise the open channel and drill a hole in the top of the siphon (makes it a second open channel, which defeats the whole point of the system) to keep it from air locking. System such as this do drain water.

Systems that follow the basic design principles (e.g. height relationships in particular, and startup characteristics) work properly out of the box.

What you missed: the air vent line; I do not know if your height relationships are good or not.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by jwright0291

So instead of buying a premade overflow box for a BA system, it would be best to diy a c2c box for your BA system?

Yes absolutely. That way, you control the design... e.g. the amount of head height (water level) in the overflow box. See post above. For a bit more detail.

The external box does not necessarily need to be C2C. You simply need enough lateral space to accommodate the plumbing pieces, without crowding things together. The height is a little more critical.

On the other hand, the internal box should be C2C and should not have teeth. The long, flat "weir" has several side effects: improved skimmer performance, (higher organic concentration of influent,) improved gas exchange (higher rate of surface renewal.) Both due to the thinner sheet of water moving into the internal box.

[neilp2006]

Originally Posted by uncleof6

The second gotcha, is the small external boxes folks are fond of trying to use, do not allow sufficient head height (water level) to purge the air from the system causing air locks, etc. Synergy found this out the hard way...

Thanks fir all your of your detailed insight and advice in this thread.

However, I'm confused by the above statement. If the holes for the bulkheads are essentially in the same place when comparing a traditional BA and one of the synergy overflow type set-ups, how can the thin box style overflows not have enough head height to effectively purge air out of the syphon line? Wouldn't just lifting the tank 6 more inches to increase the head height overcome this issue?

Also, have you seen the YouTube videos showing the synergy shadow set up with a BA, functioning exactly as you've described above? Same sequence of events in start up, and when testing blockages etc? Thoughts in this? If it looks like it is acting as a BA, isn't it acting as a BA?

Thanks for any advice


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[Dale_M]

I am sure this has been answered in this thread and trust me I have searched several ways but could not find an answer...
Has anyone come up with a best method for preventing fish from going over the weir and ending up in the overflow box?

[Ted_C]

I covered my weir with gutterguard and glued it onto the acrylic with some weldon 20 (not effective) and hot glue

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by neilp2006

Thanks fir all your of your detailed insight and advice in this thread.

However, I'm confused by the above statement. If the holes for the bulkheads are essentially in the same place when comparing a traditional BA and one of the synergy overflow type set-ups, how can the thin box style overflows not have enough head height to effectively purge air out of the syphon line? Wouldn't just lifting the tank 6 more inches to increase the head height overcome this issue?

Also, have you seen the YouTube videos showing the synergy shadow set up with a BA, functioning exactly as you've described above? Same sequence of events in start up, and when testing blockages etc? Thoughts in this? If it looks like it is acting as a BA, isn't it acting as a BA?

Thanks for any advice


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Youtube, is not a source of information on exactly how a system is functioning. I have specific reasons and thoughts on that topic, but will leave it at that.

If you recall in my post, the Synergy "design," had major flaws, and required modifications in order to function at all. The two modifications were raising the height of the open channel, and drilling a hole in the top of the siphon. Both completely unnecessary, if the basic design principles of the BA system are adhered to. Drilling a hole in the top of the siphon, makes it an open channel, not a full siphon. Therefore, since Bean's system is composed of a siphon, an open channel, and dry emergency, the synergy system cannot function as a BA does. Does it drain water? Certainly. Do the emergency and redundant fail safe work? Usually, yes. But that simply is not the point. The "trip order" is wrong (ever notice how wrong turns into right if enough individuals do not understand the basic concepts?) and the open channel becomes engaged in the startup process, when it really should not.

The basic design principles are simple; the air vent line is required for proper operation; and the height difference between the weir in the open channel (the point where the water heads down) and the inlet to the dry emergency must remain as designed. Folks that follow that rarely if ever have problems. Those that do not, usually have problems.

[neilp2006]

I saw you said there were flaws- but you didn't exactly say what they are. The hole in the syphon u bend as an example- you said it's a flaw, but didn't explain why. If the hole in the siphon line remains submerged, it isn't really an open line, though, right? If during normal operation, the hole is completely submerged, and doesn't pull air, it's functioning as a syphon line.

Also, i don't think you really answered the main question. If the distance the water has to drop is the same in a BA and an external box type, why do you say that the thin boxes don't have enough head to fully clear air out of the syphon?

Im just trying to understand this setup and partially knowledgeable regarding the history of this thread and the discussions. I don't want to step in any toes, but also would like clarification on some points.

Thanks for your time



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[Swensos]

Originally Posted by Dale_M

I am sure this has been answered in this thread and trust me I have searched several ways but could not find an answer...
Has anyone come up with a best method for preventing fish from going over the weir and ending up in the overflow box?

I used screen frame (from my BRS screen top kit) and epoxied it to my frame. It leaves a 1/4" gap above the overflow and a smaller gap between it and the screen top.

I call it the Swensos guard (hoping this is my claim to fame). It keeps out snails and fish, doesn't disrupt the flow of water, and allows me to get my hands in the overflow if needed.




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[Breadman03]

Originally Posted by Swensos

I used screen frame (from my BRS screen top kit) and epoxied it to my frame. It leaves a 1/4" gap above the overflow and a smaller gap between it and the screen top.

I call it the Swensos guard (hoping this is my claim to fame). It keeps out snails and fish, doesn't disrupt the flow of water, and allows me to get my hands in the overflow if needed.




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Swensos guard. Hmmm. I'll have to consider that.

[uncleof6]

Originally Posted by neilp2006

I saw you said there were flaws- but you didn't exactly say what they are. The hole in the syphon u bend as an example- you said it's a flaw, but didn't explain why. If the hole in the siphon line remains submerged, it isn't really an open line, though, right? If during normal operation, the hole is completely submerged, and doesn't pull air, it's functioning as a syphon line.

During normal operation, when properly setup, the top of the siphon line should NOT be submerged. The water line should be somewhere in the upper half of the elbow, but not above it.

Also, i don't think you really answered the main question. If the distance the water has to drop is the same in a BA and an external box type, why do you say that the thin boxes don't have enough head to fully clear air out of the syphon?

Not speaking of the "drop height" am speaking of the water level above the weir (point where water starts heading down) in the siphon elbow. Am not speaking of "thin" boxes am speaking of "short" boxes, with insufficient room above the siphon. That, together with the absence of the air vent line tubing, caused the problem with the Synergy/Ghost overflow, and all similar designs. The water level needs to reach a certain height, before the open channel engages (the air vent becomes submerged,) or the system will not start properly. Raising the open channel did not solve the issue, so Synergy made further modifications to get it too work. If they had made a box that would accommodate the system as designed (or at least kept the relationships and features the same) there would be no problems with the system, and others would not have the same problems either. It is not really rocket science. The difference between the down turned elbow and the upturned elbow on the dry emergency (all on the same level; e.g. not raised,) is all the height needed, without engaging the open channel. You have to have both conditions, or the start will be delayed or air locked...

Im just trying to understand this setup and partially knowledgeable regarding the history of this thread and the discussions. I don't want to step in any toes, but also would like clarification on some points.

You are not stepping on toes. I have just explained it a hundred times, if I explained it once. The explanation is always the same; consistent. This is part of the basic trouble shooting steps, almost from day 1. It follows right after the "pipe outlets being too deep in the sump (over 1")" and just before air leaks in the siphon line. There are no mysteries here, and a very finite number of possible issues, and the solutions are always the same: adhering to the design principles that were not adhered to in the first place.

Thanks for your time



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[Xenaph]

I post earlier without any answer, when i'm connected i see my post and unconnected i don't see it.

It is not the point and i hope someone can say if my craftsman do the thing well with my next custom tank.

He want lower the glass where are the overflow box to let the water go in like a fall.s

Here a video explain it and want a BA in there with 3 1" pipe. The box dimension will be 10" Long x 3 3/8" width x 8" hight

coast to coast overflow

Does it work ?