basement sump strategy

cinnamongirl · 03/26/2017, 05:46 PM

Hi, I've researched for weeks now, and I'm getting more and more confused, so I thought it was time to ask the experts!

I'm in need of a return pump from a 120g basement sump to my 125g display tank. My DT is not drilled so I am going to have to use a siphon U-tube overflow (I know

). I used durso for years, but I may consider herbie. Thoughts? I have an old eshopps overflow box with dual 1" bulkheads.

To get from the basement, I'll have around 10 vertical feet and 25 horizontal feet. Ill be using flex PVC instead of 90s for everything except the return outlet into the DT itself.

I've ruled out submersible, which is a bummer, since my sump is already full and waiting for me to connect it to my DT! I guess it will need drilled, so I have a few questions before I jump.

1. Which pump: Iwaki MD55 or Panworld 200ps. From what I can tell from other threads, both of these will handle the head pressure (or will something be better?) Heat and noise really aren't a major issue.
2. What size bulkhead to drill in my sump?
3. What size PVC for the return?

Thanks for your help!

dt204 · 03/26/2017, 06:20 PM

Hey, I've got a basement sump. I've got 10 ft vertical and around 20 ft horizontal. It's a 60g cube to a 20g sump.
Sounds like you have already ruled out submersible. Your sump is too full of equipment already? Personally I use a jebao DC 12000. It handles the head pressure no problem. I don't even have it at full power. It's also very quiet.
I'm not familiar with the pumps you mentioned, but if they are rated similar to mine, you shouldn't have a problem.
PVC return should probably be 1" at least. And the size of the bulkhead would depend on which pump you select.
Having a basement sump sure is nice!!

Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

cinnamongirl · 03/26/2017, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dt204

Hey, I've got a basement sump. I've got 10 ft vertical and around 20 ft horizontal. It's a 60g cube to a 20g sump.
Sounds like you have already ruled out submersible. Your sump is too full of equipment already? Personally I use a jebao DC 12000. It handles the head pressure no problem. I don't even have it at full power. It's also very quiet.

I have plenty of room in my sump, and submersible was my first choice. But what I'm reading has led me to believe that the DC pumps can't handle the back pressure involved in a basement sump setup. I'd love to make this work with submersible. How long have you used your Jebao as a return?

jda · 03/26/2017, 06:35 PM

Take the time and drill the tank. You don't even need an overflow of box, just do an external durso like the photo below - it can also leave a lot of room in your tank. There are two types of over-the-top overflows... those that have failed and those that will. Drill a hole for a 1.5" drain - this can handle 1500 GPH or more with ease. Return can be 3/4.

Since you live in a cold weather state, use a submersible pump and use the wattage for heat also. Iwaki and Panworld are TERRIFIC pumps, but their heat goes into the room and not much in the water. I would look at a Laguna or Fluval pump - both are great options and will move a lot of water. Many of these four pumps have over a decade of service with very happy owners.

90 in the front and T in the back with a cap and hole drilled in the top. This will need about 2" in back of the tank, though... but if you have that room, then you can save all of the room in the tank without having a box.

cinnamongirl · 03/26/2017, 06:54 PM

Thank you, JDA ! Unfortunately it's a tank that's been established for 9 years and I don't want to disrupt it quite yet. Not to mention the lack of manpower it would take to move the tank. I just don't have that musclepower accessible right now.

So the Laguna or Fluval would be ok with 20ft plus of head loss?!?

Reefable · 03/26/2017, 07:00 PM

I recently upgraded my sump from a tiny Aqueon Proflux 4 (Under the cabinet) to a 125G custom sump into my basement. Your setup discription matches to my setup interms of vertical height and horizontal length from the basement sump to my display. I have a 150G display + a 20G cube frag tank all plumbed togather to the same sump. Considering the length the water will be travelling (30ft horizontal and 15 Vertical) as well running 3 reactors (GFO/CARBON and Matrix) i went with external Reeflow pump with Barracuda setting. I am very happy with this pump and the amount of water it moves (i am running at 70%). I wanted one pump does it all strategy and hence this pump did the trick for me...I used to use 2 seperate pumps one for my return (Mag 18) as well as (Rio 17HF) to run my reactors now i dont instead just one pump as we created a manifold from the same pump to all my 3 reactors. Also i have been watching the wattage on my apex and it ranges from 4.1 to 4.5 (this includes all the other outlets too skimmer, fans, heaters, Ato). With my 2 pumps previously i use to be in the range of 3. So i am glad it didnt made much difference.

cinnamongirl · 03/26/2017, 07:07 PM

Wow, reefable, that's awesome! I looked at the Barracuda and didn't think it had the hootspa. Obviously I'm looking at things wrong! Do you have pix of your manifold set up?

Reefable · 03/26/2017, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinnamongirl

Wow, reefable, that's awesome! I looked at the Barracuda and didn't think it had the hootspa. Obviously I'm looking at things wrong! Do you have pix of your manifold set up?

Lol You will surprised how much water barracuda moves lol. Here is the picture of the manifold with my 3 reactors. Good Luck

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Reefable · 03/26/2017, 07:43 PM

Sorry I forgot to respond to your other questions. The Reeflow has 1.5" intake and output. I drilled 1.5" for the input and ran 1.5" hard PVC all the way till my display and than installed a T and reduced them to 3 x 1" for my 3 returns (2 to display and 1 to my fragtank).

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cinnamongirl · 03/26/2017, 07:51 PM

Wow, thanks!

Reefable · 03/26/2017, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cinnamongirl

Wow, thanks!

no problem keep us posted.

tkeracer619 · 03/26/2017, 08:52 PM

If you are going to use a HOB use a lifereef. They are the real deal and not a copy.

Use a float switch positioned above the water level but below the rim of the display. Run an extension cord to the basement and power your return pump through the float switch. If the overflow fails the return pump will shut down prior to an overflow. I would use an ATO switch from autotopoff.com. High quality setup.

cinnamongirl · 03/27/2017, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

Use a float switch positioned above the water level but below the rim of the display. Run an extension cord to the basement and power your return pump through the float switch. If the overflow fails the return pump will shut down prior to an overflow. I would use an ATO switch from autotopoff.com. High quality setup.

Thanks, TKE, I will plan on doing that. I was wondering how to configure a water alarm for overflows, but a float switch sounds like an even better plan.

cinnamongirl · 03/27/2017, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jda

Since you live in a cold weather state, use a submersible pump and use the wattage for heat also. Iwaki and Panworld are TERRIFIC pumps, but their heat goes into the room and not much in the water. I would look at a Laguna or Fluval pump - both are great options and will move a lot of water. Many of these four pumps have over a decade of service with very happy owners.

JDA, according to the specs I can find, neither the Fluval SP6 or the Laguna Maxflo 4280 can hand the head pressure I'll need. The SP6 maxes at around 11', and the Laguna about the same. Looks like I"m back to external pumps

.....

cinnamongirl · 03/27/2017, 07:25 PM

OK, I bit the bullet and got a Pan World 200 PS. Should be plenty of flow!! I also ordered the Lifereef overflow, which only has a single 1" drain which will handle 600gph. I don't think I'll get much more out of m pump than that, given all the head loss.

Next question, since this conversation has been so helpful, is pipe size for drain and return. The Pan World has 1" in/out, the overflow has 1" drain, so do I stick with that for my plumbing. I see most people increase their pipe? And what is the benefits of going up to 1 1/2" or 1 1/4", if I only have a 1" drain on my overflow??

tkeracer619 · 03/27/2017, 07:55 PM

Use this calculator. Select the blueline hd70. Same pump you bought. You can see what difference the plumbing will make.

http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...oss-calculator

cinnamongirl · 03/27/2017, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

Use this calculator. Select the blueline hd70. Same pump you bought. You can see what difference the plumbing will make.

http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...oss-calculator

Thank you, will do. I knew that calculator was there, I've used it a dozen times in the past, but I totally forgot about it (doh!).... to be continued.....

Holy crap, I may have over-bought my pump. This calculates 1100gph at 1", 1400gph at 1.25". I guess that's better than under-buying! My overflow can only handle 600gph! I guess it's time to think about Reefable's manifold!! YAY!

Reefable · 03/27/2017, 08:17 PM

Yay use tht extra flow to feed those reactors just make sure u have individual small ball valves for each reactor for maintenance apart from the actual ones coming from the manifold. This way u can just close any small valve to change media etc on any reactor without touching the other larger valves.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

cinnamongirl · 03/27/2017, 08:56 PM

Does anyone see any issues with using 1 1/4 pipe for the drain, considering the horizontal runs?

5 feet vertical into the basement
9' horizontal to a 90 degree S-curve (using flex pvc)
15' horizontal to 45 degree S-curve
16' horizontal with a slight downward slope
5' vertical into sump

Wow, that sounds awful. I guess that's more than 25 feet

Any recommendations on how to make it work? Is an inline "booster" pump half way through the horizontal run an option or will gravity just do the job fine? Shooting for 600 gph, overall.

tkeracer619 · 03/27/2017, 09:03 PM

It really should slope down at all times. Your run sounds a lot like the drain I just ran for my 600gal. Have fun with that!

Definitely go as big as you can. Especially with a stockman type drain.

03/26/2017, 05:46 PM	#1
cinnamongirl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Erie PA Posts: 514	basement sump strategy Hi, I've researched for weeks now, and I'm getting more and more confused, so I thought it was time to ask the experts! I'm in need of a return pump from a 120g basement sump to my 125g display tank. My DT is not drilled so I am going to have to use a siphon U-tube overflow (I know ). I used durso for years, but I may consider herbie. Thoughts? I have an old eshopps overflow box with dual 1" bulkheads. To get from the basement, I'll have around 10 vertical feet and 25 horizontal feet. Ill be using flex PVC instead of 90s for everything except the return outlet into the DT itself. I've ruled out submersible, which is a bummer, since my sump is already full and waiting for me to connect it to my DT! I guess it will need drilled, so I have a few questions before I jump. 1. Which pump: Iwaki MD55 or Panworld 200ps. From what I can tell from other threads, both of these will handle the head pressure (or will something be better?) Heat and noise really aren't a major issue. 2. What size bulkhead to drill in my sump? 3. What size PVC for the return? Thanks for your help! __________________ ~Victoria Current Tank Info: 125g lps/soft reef, 75g cichlid, 6g nano reef

03/26/2017, 06:54 PM	#5
cinnamongirl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Erie PA Posts: 514	Thank you, JDA ! Unfortunately it's a tank that's been established for 9 years and I don't want to disrupt it quite yet. Not to mention the lack of manpower it would take to move the tank. I just don't have that musclepower accessible right now. So the Laguna or Fluval would be ok with 20ft plus of head loss?!? __________________ ~Victoria Current Tank Info: 125g lps/soft reef, 75g cichlid, 6g nano reef

03/26/2017, 07:07 PM	#7
cinnamongirl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Erie PA Posts: 514	Wow, reefable, that's awesome! I looked at the Barracuda and didn't think it had the hootspa. Obviously I'm looking at things wrong! Do you have pix of your manifold set up? __________________ ~Victoria Current Tank Info: 125g lps/soft reef, 75g cichlid, 6g nano reef

03/26/2017, 07:51 PM	#10
cinnamongirl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Erie PA Posts: 514	Wow, thanks! __________________ ~Victoria Current Tank Info: 125g lps/soft reef, 75g cichlid, 6g nano reef

03/26/2017, 08:52 PM	#12
tkeracer619 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Westminster, CO Posts: 17,289	If you are going to use a HOB use a lifereef. They are the real deal and not a copy. Use a float switch positioned above the water level but below the rim of the display. Run an extension cord to the basement and power your return pump through the float switch. If the overflow fails the return pump will shut down prior to an overflow. I would use an ATO switch from autotopoff.com. High quality setup. __________________ Hobby Experience: 9200ish gallons, 26 skimmers, and a handful of Kent Scrapers. Current Tank: Vortech Powered 600G SPS Tank w/ 100gal frag tank & 100g Sump. RK2-RK10 Skimmer. ReefAngel. Radium 20k.

03/26/2017, 06:20 PM	#2
dt204 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 233	Hey, I've got a basement sump. I've got 10 ft vertical and around 20 ft horizontal. It's a 60g cube to a 20g sump. Sounds like you have already ruled out submersible. Your sump is too full of equipment already? Personally I use a jebao DC 12000. It handles the head pressure no problem. I don't even have it at full power. It's also very quiet. I'm not familiar with the pumps you mentioned, but if they are rated similar to mine, you shouldn't have a problem. PVC return should probably be 1" at least. And the size of the bulkhead would depend on which pump you select. Having a basement sump sure is nice!! Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk

03/26/2017, 06:35 PM	#4
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Take the time and drill the tank. You don't even need an overflow of box, just do an external durso like the photo below - it can also leave a lot of room in your tank. There are two types of over-the-top overflows... those that have failed and those that will. Drill a hole for a 1.5" drain - this can handle 1500 GPH or more with ease. Return can be 3/4. Since you live in a cold weather state, use a submersible pump and use the wattage for heat also. Iwaki and Panworld are TERRIFIC pumps, but their heat goes into the room and not much in the water. I would look at a Laguna or Fluval pump - both are great options and will move a lot of water. Many of these four pumps have over a decade of service with very happy owners. 90 in the front and T in the back with a cap and hole drilled in the top. This will need about 2" in back of the tank, though... but if you have that room, then you can save all of the room in the tank without having a box.

03/26/2017, 07:00 PM	#6
Reefable Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 213	I recently upgraded my sump from a tiny Aqueon Proflux 4 (Under the cabinet) to a 125G custom sump into my basement. Your setup discription matches to my setup interms of vertical height and horizontal length from the basement sump to my display. I have a 150G display + a 20G cube frag tank all plumbed togather to the same sump. Considering the length the water will be travelling (30ft horizontal and 15 Vertical) as well running 3 reactors (GFO/CARBON and Matrix) i went with external Reeflow pump with Barracuda setting. I am very happy with this pump and the amount of water it moves (i am running at 70%). I wanted one pump does it all strategy and hence this pump did the trick for me...I used to use 2 seperate pumps one for my return (Mag 18) as well as (Rio 17HF) to run my reactors now i dont instead just one pump as we created a manifold from the same pump to all my 3 reactors. Also i have been watching the wattage on my apex and it ranges from 4.1 to 4.5 (this includes all the other outlets too skimmer, fans, heaters, Ato). With my 2 pumps previously i use to be in the range of 3. So i am glad it didnt made much difference.

03/26/2017, 07:43 PM	#9
Reefable Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 213	Sorry I forgot to respond to your other questions. The Reeflow has 1.5" intake and output. I drilled 1.5" for the input and ran 1.5" hard PVC all the way till my display and than installed a T and reduced them to 3 x 1" for my 3 returns (2 to display and 1 to my fragtank). Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

03/27/2017, 07:25 PM	#15
cinnamongirl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Erie PA Posts: 514	OK, I bit the bullet and got a Pan World 200 PS. Should be plenty of flow!! I also ordered the Lifereef overflow, which only has a single 1" drain which will handle 600gph. I don't think I'll get much more out of m pump than that, given all the head loss. Next question, since this conversation has been so helpful, is pipe size for drain and return. The Pan World has 1" in/out, the overflow has 1" drain, so do I stick with that for my plumbing. I see most people increase their pipe? And what is the benefits of going up to 1 1/2" or 1 1/4", if I only have a 1" drain on my overflow?? __________________ ~Victoria Current Tank Info: 125g lps/soft reef, 75g cichlid, 6g nano reef

03/27/2017, 07:55 PM	#16
tkeracer619 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Westminster, CO Posts: 17,289	Use this calculator. Select the blueline hd70. Same pump you bought. You can see what difference the plumbing will make. http://www.reefcentral.com/index.php...oss-calculator __________________ Hobby Experience: 9200ish gallons, 26 skimmers, and a handful of Kent Scrapers. Current Tank: Vortech Powered 600G SPS Tank w/ 100gal frag tank & 100g Sump. RK2-RK10 Skimmer. ReefAngel. Radium 20k.

03/27/2017, 08:17 PM	#18
Reefable Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Planet Earth Posts: 213	Yay use tht extra flow to feed those reactors just make sure u have individual small ball valves for each reactor for maintenance apart from the actual ones coming from the manifold. This way u can just close any small valve to change media etc on any reactor without touching the other larger valves. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

03/27/2017, 08:56 PM	#19
cinnamongirl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Erie PA Posts: 514	Does anyone see any issues with using 1 1/4 pipe for the drain, considering the horizontal runs? 5 feet vertical into the basement 9' horizontal to a 90 degree S-curve (using flex pvc) 15' horizontal to 45 degree S-curve 16' horizontal with a slight downward slope 5' vertical into sump Wow, that sounds awful. I guess that's more than 25 feet Any recommendations on how to make it work? Is an inline "booster" pump half way through the horizontal run an option or will gravity just do the job fine? Shooting for 600 gph, overall. __________________ ~Victoria Current Tank Info: 125g lps/soft reef, 75g cichlid, 6g nano reef Last edited by cinnamongirl; 03/27/2017 at 09:05 PM.

03/27/2017, 09:03 PM	#20
tkeracer619 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Westminster, CO Posts: 17,289	It really should slope down at all times. Your run sounds a lot like the drain I just ran for my 600gal. Have fun with that! Definitely go as big as you can. Especially with a stockman type drain. __________________ Hobby Experience: 9200ish gallons, 26 skimmers, and a handful of Kent Scrapers. Current Tank: Vortech Powered 600G SPS Tank w/ 100gal frag tank & 100g Sump. RK2-RK10 Skimmer. ReefAngel. Radium 20k.