Calcium Reactor vs. Two-part System

[tmz]

Just a couple of points to consider,the choice is really a matter of your own preference and style and the particular needs of your system. I don't believe there is a best way to met the need for calcium carbonate

The calcium reactor if set at the recommended flow rate for your system size may not meet all of your needs. If you have high bio consumption,you may still need to supplement with two part or kwater dosing,or both.

Excess Co2 can be a serious problem with depressed ph if you drive a reactor too hard. The effluent when tuned right still goes in at only 6.7ph.Too much of that or a lower effluent ph value with higher co2 will have obvious effects on your sytem including: lowered ph ,slime and nuisance algaeand other ills associated with excess co2.

Two part relies on sodium chloride for the calcium component. I am a bit concerned that with long term heavy use chlorides can build up beyond natural levels.

Kalkwater(lime water) is calcium hydroxide and is balnced with carbonate, so it's a one part. It can be dosed too quickly and drive ph way up with dire consequences including a snowtorm of percipitation. It may also deplete magnesium over time. It does percipitate phosphate. The ph of k water is 12. Exclusive reliance on kwater dosing may not enable you to meet a heavy bio consumption rate.

I run a 400g system which uses a lot of calcium. I use a calcium reactor during the day and dose kwater as top off at night. I am able to maintain alkalinity at 4.0meql(dkh11.2) and calcium at about 410ppm with a ph of 8.3 during the day and 8.15 at night. The co2 goes in during the day when most of the corals are producing oxygen and at night the kwater at 12ph offsets the natural co2 increase when the system "exhales" co2. I also use opposite photo period refugia and dose a small amount of the reciepe 2 part once a week or so when I test calcium and alkalinity.

When using a calcium reactor it is a comfort to know that calcium and carbonate are being added to my system when I am away for any length of time. Even if it doesn't meet all of the needs,it holds levels in acceptable ranges for a week or so and makes readjustment via two part less dramatic.

I don't know a lot about the particular chemistry of calcium chloride but I believe lime(kwater) and your typical crushed coral calcium reactor media are more natural.

So it's not really a question of which is the better method but rather which method or combination meets your needs and prefernces.
Tom

[NanoCube-boy]

Doesn't bigger tank needs higher demand if you are running a lot corals?............................... That's why it can empty your wallet if you used parts 1 and 2.

[dtaylor123]

This thread has been a great read, except from the threads originator. Why would you start a thread asking a question that you already had the answer too? Your retorts actually got quite silly.

I have always been a supporter of the two part for tanks <300 gallons or so. Both ways work, but dosing two part seems to be an easy solution to the problem of getting our calcium and alk to the correct parameters.

Kudos to all, but Rover (well I guess he deserves some kudos for starting it), it was a great read!

[Nanz]

Originally posted by rleechb
1 - No way you need 5 gallon jugs. A 2 x 5 gallon jugs would last you probably close to 8 months in a fully stocked 72g tank. My tank, although only 60g, has high ca/alk demands, and 1 gallon of each lasts over a month, probably closer to 2 months.

2 - You do have to replenish, but replenishing is a piece of cake. I always have a gallon on each on standby. When I'm out, I just pour the "reserves" into my jugs, and I'm done. Takes 2 minutes every couple months, tops.

3 - Definitely not twice per month. A dosing pump was far easier to setup than a ca reactor. Instead of counting bubbles with a stopwatch, measuring alk, bumping the bubbles/effluent up or down, measuring again, monitoring pH, etc., I just set the pump to a set rate, measure, tweak the rate. I found my "sweetspot" in 4 days, vs 2 weeks for a reactor.

4 - Just as stable with 2-part. I actually "prefer" the stability of 2-part + dosing pump, because I don't have to worry about pH going down too much. In a heavily stocked system, you can run issues with pH going too low (too much co2 going into your system). You can always add a second chamber or a kalk reactor, but then you run into the aforementioned space problems again.


HTH.

How do you dose 2-part with a dosing pump? If you add both Calcium and Carbonate at the same time they precipitate. How is this done?

[rleechb]

Don't add them in the same spot; have each component administered in different areas of your sump (higher flow areas, as well).

[seattlerob]

FWIW, I was contemplating this exact decision about a year ago. I have 2 relatively small tanks, a 45g and 90g. The systems are both independent of each other. I decided to use 2-part instead of CaRX, primarily because of cost, but secondly because of simplicity.

I have read so many threads about people having problems setting up CaRX. I know that probably in most all cases, it's just a matter of experience and familiarity. But it's still my understanding that with CaRX, there are a number of things to adjust and fine tune, whereas with 2-part, I really only need to determine how many mL to dose. I'm not saying CaRX is bad, just seems a little more complex to setup.

So, for me, if I went with CaRX, I would need to buy 2 of them (plus all the accessories that are required to run a CaRX). With 2-part, I started out dosing both tanks manually. I now use a litermeter3 on my 90g (with a 2nd pump attached) to automate the dosing. I am still dosing my 45g manually, but sometime in the future I hope to automate it (probably after I get a sump setup on it).

The above explains the cost reasoning. As far as simplicity, currently my 90g gets 175mL/day of each of the 2-parts. And my 45g gets 75mL/day. For me, I like the ability to quantify the dosage in mL/day. It seems to me that with a CaRX, you set CO2 level, bubble/min, and drip rate of solution leaving the CaRX, that it is harder to quantify the rate of dosage. I am probably making more than necessary out of this complexity, but it is one of the reasons I decided to use 2-part.

In regards to Nanz question, when dosing 2-part with a dosing pump, I just have my dosing lines on opposite sides of the tank. This gives each part time to mix with the water in the tank, so precipitation is not an issue.

Just my 2 cents on this subject....hth,

rob

[Nanz]

Originally posted by seattlerob
FWIW, I was contemplating this exact decision about a year ago. I have 2 relatively small tanks, a 45g and 90g. The systems are both independent of each other. I decided to use 2-part instead of CaRX, primarily because of cost, but secondly because of simplicity.

I have read so many threads about people having problems setting up CaRX. I know that probably in most all cases, it's just a matter of experience and familiarity. But it's still my understanding that with CaRX, there are a number of things to adjust and fine tune, whereas with 2-part, I really only need to determine how many mL to dose. I'm not saying CaRX is bad, just seems a little more complex to setup.

So, for me, if I went with CaRX, I would need to buy 2 of them (plus all the accessories that are required to run a CaRX). With 2-part, I started out dosing both tanks manually. I now use a litermeter3 on my 90g (with a 2nd pump attached) to automate the dosing. I am still dosing my 45g manually, but sometime in the future I hope to automate it (probably after I get a sump setup on it).

The above explains the cost reasoning. As far as simplicity, currently my 90g gets 175mL/day of each of the 2-parts. And my 45g gets 75mL/day. For me, I like the ability to quantify the dosage in mL/day. It seems to me that with a CaRX, you set CO2 level, bubble/min, and drip rate of solution leaving the CaRX, that it is harder to quantify the rate of dosage. I am probably making more than necessary out of this complexity, but it is one of the reasons I decided to use 2-part.

In regards to Nanz question, when dosing 2-part with a dosing pump, I just have my dosing lines on opposite sides of the tank. This gives each part time to mix with the water in the tank, so precipitation is not an issue.

Just my 2 cents on this subject....hth,

rob

Thanks for the quick reply.. I have a few questions...

1) Do you dose your 2-part all day/night or only for a limited time?

2) Why not use an Aqualifter pump to dose instead of a peristaltic pump?

Thanks

[seattlerob]

Nanz:

1) On my 90g (primarily SPS with some LPS), the litermeter spreads out the dosing over 24 hr period. You simply have to enter the mL/day dosage you want, and the litermeter spreads out the dosage over 100+ intervals during the day (sorry, I forget the exact number of intervals).

On my 45g (primarily softies & LPS), I dose every AM only (just before I leave for work). Definitely not as 'stable' as dosing over 24 hr period, but corals/fish all seem ok. I've been manually dosing this way for 1+ years.

2) The main reason why a peristaltic pump is used instead of an Aqualifter is precision. I don't know how precise the dosing would be using an Aqualifter pump, as you'd have to use some sort of timer to control when it's on & off. (I do use Aqualifter pumps for my top-off, but that's controlled by autotopoff switches, so there's no precision required from the Aqualifter).

The litermeter is nice in the fact you can calibrate up to 3 separate pumps based on volume (mL), not time (i.e. on for 10 seconds), albeit you have to spend a lot for this feature! There are other dosing pump options that are definitely cheaper than the litermeter (I think the litermeter is just about as expensive as dosing pumps get), but I don't think you can get a good dosing pump for anywhere near the cost of an Aqualifter . To properly automate 2-part, the dosing pump will be your biggest expense, which happens to be 100% of the automation too.

hth,
rob

[Rovert]

Originally posted by dtaylor123
This thread has been a great read, except from the threads originator. Why would you start a thread asking a question that you already had the answer too? Your retorts actually got quite silly... Kudos to all, but Rover (well I guess he deserves some kudos for starting it), it was a great read!

Why would you shoot your mouth off without having any facts? I already had this conversation with another member about assuming things about my motiviations. I will not tolerate people putting words into my mouth, and I'll thank you to keep your flip comments to yourself. As to my 'retorts', yours didn't exactly aquit you well, either. And since we're on the subject, who made you judge of the value of my posts... that's some ego you have, there.

You also might take a moment to observe that there's a 'T' at the end of my user name. But obviously you were as observant about that as you were with regard to the rest of my points. As with most people with intellectually bankrupt positions, you criticise the style of my posts, rather than the substance.

[Nanz]

Originally posted by seattlerob
Nanz:

1) On my 90g (primarily SPS with some LPS), the litermeter spreads out the dosing over 24 hr period. You simply have to enter the mL/day dosage you want, and the litermeter spreads out the dosage over 100+ intervals during the day (sorry, I forget the exact number of intervals).

On my 45g (primarily softies & LPS), I dose every AM only (just before I leave for work). Definitely not as 'stable' as dosing over 24 hr period, but corals/fish all seem ok. I've been manually dosing this way for 1+ years.

2) The main reason why a peristaltic pump is used instead of an Aqualifter is precision. I don't know how precise the dosing would be using an Aqualifter pump, as you'd have to use some sort of timer to control when it's on & off. (I do use Aqualifter pumps for my top-off, but that's controlled by autotopoff switches, so there's no precision required from the Aqualifter).

The litermeter is nice in the fact you can calibrate up to 3 separate pumps based on volume (mL), not time (i.e. on for 10 seconds), albeit you have to spend a lot for this feature! There are other dosing pump options that are definitely cheaper than the litermeter (I think the litermeter is just about as expensive as dosing pumps get), but I don't think you can get a good dosing pump for anywhere near the cost of an Aqualifter . To properly automate 2-part, the dosing pump will be your biggest expense, which happens to be 100% of the automation too.

hth,
rob

Do you need to have 2 pumps to dose the 2 part with the litermeter?

[Rovert]

Originally posted by Nanz
Thanks for the quick reply.. I have a few questions...

1) Do you dose your 2-part all day/night or only for a limited time?

2) Why not use an Aqualifter pump to dose instead of a peristaltic pump?

Thanks

Nanz, depending on your needs and budget, you don't even really NEED a dosing pump. You could just as easily get away with a drip IV type setup, if you're willing to take the time to adjust it properly. That eliminates the need and cost of any additional equipment entirely!

[seattlerob]

Yes, that is correct. You need a separate pump for each of the 2 parts. Some of the pumps other people have mentioned in this thread are dual-channel (or something like that), which I believe means there's only 1 pump, but it can dose 2 separate things at the same time. It's my understanding these pumps work very well for 2-part dosing too. But, I'm not sure you can individually calibrate the separate channels or not.

Side note, the Litermeter comes with 1 pump built-in, and can support up to 2 additional pumps, so it can dose up to 3 separate things (each additional pump is over $100). There are also a couple of other 'modules' available for the litermeter besides dosing pumps, but you're limited to 3 total.

All said and done, a litermeter setup is expensive! I'd be surprised if there's another commonly used dosing pump that costs more than the litermeter.

[Nanz]

Originally posted by Rovert
Nanz, depending on your needs and budget, you don't even really NEED a dosing pump. You could just as easily get away with a drip IV type setup, if you're willing to take the time to adjust it properly. That eliminates the need and cost of any additional equipment entirely!

Actually.. I am looking for a cheap solution.. I found out Friday that I'm pregnant, hehe..

Anyways.. I was going to use a drip system but I dont have much room under my sump to hang anything to drip.. Thats why I though of using an aqualifter to pump then just set the drip rate on the line coming out.

[seattlerob]

Rovert: I've used the drip IV setup for dosing kalk in the past (I now use Aqualifter pumps with ATO switches). The drip IV setup is cheap, but unsophisticated. It would take some tinkering with to get the correct drip rate to match your daily dosage. And, if/when you want to change the dosage, you would need to spend that much more time tinkering with the drip rate.

Not saying it can't be done, but given the choice, I think just measuring the dosage 1 time a day is easier, assuming you don't want to spend the money on a dosing pump. In other words, I am on a budget (which is why I haven't automated my 2nd tank yet), and IME the drip setup would provide little advantage and be quite a bit harder to get 'dialed in'.

rob

[Rovert]

Originally posted by seattlerob
Rovert: I've used the drip IV setup for dosing kalk in the past... setup is cheap, but unsophisticated. It would take some tinkering with to get the correct drip rate to match your daily dosage. And, if/when you want to change the dosage, you would need to spend that much more time tinkering with the drip rate. Not saying it can't be done, but given the choice, I think just measuring the dosage 1 time a day is ...

rob

Ah. That makes sense. I was just thinking from the standpoint of making it as economical and simple (as in: technology-free, so that it's as failure-free) as possible.

[Whaledriver]

You can hang the IV bags behind the tank and run a drip tube to the sump. Most IV bags are only a few inches thick when full.

You can also put your pumps far away from the tank and run tubing to the sump.

I sold my Liter meter and went with a doser off of eBay

[Obi-dad]

Originally posted by Nanz
Actually.. I am looking for a cheap solution.. I found out Friday that I'm pregnant, hehe..

Anyways.. I was going to use a drip system but I dont have much room under my sump to hang anything to drip.. Thats why I though of using an aqualifter to pump then just set the drip rate on the line coming out.

Congrats on the pregnancy!

I tried aqualifters with using a c-clamp on the output line, and they were reasonably accurate to start with, but the constriction at the c-clamp starts getting clogged and the rates start varying. Then I bought a dual-channel dosing pump from reefdosingpumps.com, and this works much better.

[Markk96]

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