Herbie question, system start up

fltekdiver · 07/15/2018, 10:59 AM

Hello,

I'm having trouble with the weir height, as I'm just starting up a new system using Herbie. This is my 4 or 5th tank with Herbie, but I've forgot some things like this.

I have a 1-1/2' black trim ring around my tank, so I need to keep the water above that about a 1/16th so you don't see a water line in the tank.

The weir I have the emergency stand pipe equal to the top of the weir, or just below. the stand pipe for the siphon is 6" below the emergency.

If you look at the pics, do I need to install the black trim pc inside the weir, that's adjustable , so I can adjust the weir height?

If you look at the pics, and the teeth to the weir, how does the weir height adjust unless I go below the booth of the teeth in the weir, then I would be 1" below the tank trim, with a water line a 1" below the tank rim.

I also took a pic to show where the water line is in the tank , this is right before it starts to flood the weir. At this point, their is no siphon, because the tank isn't flowing into the weir.

Conchman · 07/15/2018, 01:14 PM

Not a Herbie expert but from where I’m looking at that height you would only be able to run a dry emergency. It looks like it would work fine just dry. I run mine slight trickle, just my choice.as long as it is below the absolute top of the glass, should be okay.

Lsufan · 07/15/2018, 02:07 PM

If I’m understanding correctly u need to install the piece to the weir & adjust it to where the bottom of the teeth are even with or just below the tank trim. It will build up on the teeth some but it’s hard to say how much. The more flow the higher it will build up on the teeth.

If I understand your last question about how the adjustable weir works, I have never had one so I’m not 100% certain. It seems like if u attach it it will raise the water level in the tank to where u set the hieght of the weir, but it won’t be 100% waterproof so some water will get through. So when u turn the return pump off the tank will atleast drain down to the bottom of the teeth on the weir & not where u have the adjustable piece set at. It will still raise the water level inside of the tank under normal operation though.

fltekdiver · 07/15/2018, 02:37 PM

I have the emergency set up as dry, but could lower it to become a trickle
Not sure which is better.

The teeth on the weir are 1" below the rim on the tank, so how would I fill the tank, to the level of the top rim, with keeping the weir separate, so it acts as a weir, and I could adjust it with the gate valve.

Install that black curved pc in the weir and adjust that?

Then I would set the height on the emergency drain the same height as the tank to get a trickle or adjust the gate valve to
get the emergency to trickle?

If I set the emergency drain as a trickle, then I would set that height 1/16th of an inch above the bottom of the top tank rim?

Lsufan · 07/15/2018, 03:43 PM

Yes, u need to add the adjustable peice to the weir. The water level in the tank & the water level inside of the overflow box are not relative to each other & are set by two different ways. Granted, u don’t want the water level inside of the overflow to be 3” or 4” lower then the tank because the waterfall entering the box would be loud. It is fine to have the water level inside of the overflow 1/2” to 1” below the tank water level & u actually want it this way.

The adjustable weir will set the water level inside of the tank. The valve on the syphon drain is what will set the hieght of the water level inside of the overflow. Opening the valve will lower the water level & closing the valve will raise the water level.

So if u want the emergency dry then just set it even with or just a little higher then the adjustable weir hieght. If u want to run a trickle then set it 1/2” to 1” lower then the weir. Then u use the valve on the syphon to agjust the water level inside of the box to where it has a trickle going down the emergency. The only issue with this is u have a really small overflow box, so if u set it up with a trickle any flunctuation will change the water level inside of the box quite a bit. If any more then a trickle goes down the emergency it will be loud, so the flunctuation may cause u to have to tune on the valve more often to keep it quiet

fltekdiver · 07/15/2018, 04:22 PM

Ok thanks for the help.

I took a picture with the pc to adjust the weir back in. As you can see, it still lets water into the weir with extra holes. I guess I'm getting confused as to how can the tank level be at the black trim on the top band, and the weir lower , when the weir has all the extra holes in the adjustable pc.

I keep thinking they will become one, tank and weir and I will not be able to adjust the weir level separately.

I'm shooting for the over flow box to be about 1/2' to max 1" lower then the tank water level, this way I don't hear a " waterfall " effect

Here's a pic with the adjustable pc in the over flow box

Lsufan · 07/15/2018, 09:03 PM

I’m not sure why it has the extra holes. Only so much water can pass thru those holes. So the water should build up to the other slots. How much it builds up will be determined by how much flow u have, so u may have to get it running & play with the height of the weir.

As a example. Say those extra holes will only allow 20 gph thru them & u have 200 gph going through the system. Then the water will build up past those holes until it has somewhere to go. In your case that will be the other slots in the overflow box.

fltekdiver · 07/17/2018, 09:50 AM

Thank you, I appreciate it, I'll start it up and figure out the tank level and over flow box level and adjust the emergency drain accordingly

homer1475 · 07/18/2018, 05:32 AM

With a herbie setup your water level is determined by the height of the emergency. Simple as that. If the water level doesn't meet the top of the emergency then you either need to turn up the return pump, or slow the flow through the full siphon with a gate valve.

fltekdiver · 07/19/2018, 11:57 AM

So if the tank water level is at the bottom rim on.the top trim
Then I would set the emergency in the overflow box 1/2" below that and trickle it? Or it would be just above the tank water line?

Vinny Kreyling · 07/19/2018, 12:55 PM

If the water level is where you want it then the emergency should be slightly higher or it will lower the level in the tank.

fltekdiver · 07/20/2018, 11:36 AM

Thanks , just so I understand, if I'm using a trickle down the emergency, then the over flow box should be about 1/2" to an inch lower then the tank water level, and a slight trickle down the emergency, using the gate valve to adjust the over flow box or return pump if adjusting the tank level

Vinny Kreyling · 07/20/2018, 05:08 PM

The siphon line is lower than the overflow teeth.
The emergency line is higher than the water level you would like to run but not high enough for an overflow.
The gate valve regulates the height of the water in the overflow box and water in the tank.
Suggested height difference between pipes is 6" but is not set in stone.
Water levels in the overflows tend to fluctuate somewhat, barometric pressure has been suggested as a possibility. Who knows?
Generally my tank runs with slightly more than a trickle & is VERY hard to maintain a dry pipe.

fltekdiver · 07/21/2018, 04:42 AM

That is where I get confused.

For the emergency line to trickle, it would need to be set at 1/2" to 1" below tank level. I have the main siphon around 5 to 6 inches below this.

In the past, on several tanks that I ran Herbie set up, I always ran the emergency dry. So I would just set the emergency pipe 1/4" below the top of the tank.
To trickle it, it would have to be set at somewhere 1/2" to and 1" lower then the tank level, so I dont hear a waterfall effect when the water flows into the over flow box right?

Vinny Kreyling · 07/21/2018, 07:09 AM

Nothing says the emergency line has to trickle, but many including me have trouble getting this in real life. If you set it to where you want it & it works without problems then you are fine. You can always raise the drain pipe to reduce the waterfall noise.
I had to create a baffle on my boxes to do just that.

fltekdiver · 07/22/2018, 08:00 AM

ok so don't focus on the emergency trickle so much , as long as the overflow box stays consistent in height, and gate valve match's the return pump speed to where the over flow box and tank stay at their levels

Vinny Kreyling · 07/22/2018, 10:15 AM

Thumbs up emoji--If I knew how to do it------

callsign4223 · 07/23/2018, 10:47 AM

Getting the pump and full siphon to match exactly is almost impossible. And as soon as you do get them to match a pressure system will roll into town and mess it up anyway. This is why you always have a trickle in the emergency overflow. It isn't IDEAL, but it's how the system works. The bean animal design was specifically made to address this. It's a herbie with a TRUE DRY emergency. That's not to say the herbie design isn't reliable, but just know that it isn't 100% failproof.

fltekdiver · 07/23/2018, 11:03 AM

Thank you I appreciate the clarification

07/15/2018, 02:37 PM	#4
fltekdiver Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,533	I have the emergency set up as dry, but could lower it to become a trickle Not sure which is better. The teeth on the weir are 1" below the rim on the tank, so how would I fill the tank, to the level of the top rim, with keeping the weir separate, so it acts as a weir, and I could adjust it with the gate valve. Install that black curved pc in the weir and adjust that? Then I would set the height on the emergency drain the same height as the tank to get a trickle or adjust the gate valve to get the emergency to trickle? If I set the emergency drain as a trickle, then I would set that height 1/16th of an inch above the bottom of the top tank rim? __________________ RedSea Reefer 350 ,Apex Controller ,2x Hydra 26HD lights Reef Octopus eSsence S-130 Protein Skimmer Reef Octopus VarioS return pump , UV sterilizer Ice Cap 3K Gyre - Started up 8/13/19

07/17/2018, 09:50 AM	#8
fltekdiver Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,533	Thank you, I appreciate it, I'll start it up and figure out the tank level and over flow box level and adjust the emergency drain accordingly __________________ RedSea Reefer 350 ,Apex Controller ,2x Hydra 26HD lights Reef Octopus eSsence S-130 Protein Skimmer Reef Octopus VarioS return pump , UV sterilizer Ice Cap 3K Gyre - Started up 8/13/19

07/18/2018, 05:32 AM	#9
homer1475 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 5,313	With a herbie setup your water level is determined by the height of the emergency. Simple as that. If the water level doesn't meet the top of the emergency then you either need to turn up the return pump, or slow the flow through the full siphon with a gate valve. __________________ 80G SCA Build: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2560256 Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht: "He's just taking his lunch to work"

07/19/2018, 11:57 AM	#10
fltekdiver Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,533	So if the tank water level is at the bottom rim on.the top trim Then I would set the emergency in the overflow box 1/2" below that and trickle it? Or it would be just above the tank water line? __________________ RedSea Reefer 350 ,Apex Controller ,2x Hydra 26HD lights Reef Octopus eSsence S-130 Protein Skimmer Reef Octopus VarioS return pump , UV sterilizer Ice Cap 3K Gyre - Started up 8/13/19

07/19/2018, 12:55 PM	#11
Vinny Kreyling Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 7,206	If the water level is where you want it then the emergency should be slightly higher or it will lower the level in the tank. __________________ 250 gallon mixed reef, 2 Reefbreeder's Photon V 2, Deepwater BLDC 12, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 6 Tunze pumps.

07/15/2018, 01:14 PM	#2
Conchman Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 56	Not a Herbie expert but from where I’m looking at that height you would only be able to run a dry emergency. It looks like it would work fine just dry. I run mine slight trickle, just my choice.as long as it is below the absolute top of the glass, should be okay.

07/15/2018, 02:07 PM	#3
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	If I’m understanding correctly u need to install the piece to the weir & adjust it to where the bottom of the teeth are even with or just below the tank trim. It will build up on the teeth some but it’s hard to say how much. The more flow the higher it will build up on the teeth. If I understand your last question about how the adjustable weir works, I have never had one so I’m not 100% certain. It seems like if u attach it it will raise the water level in the tank to where u set the hieght of the weir, but it won’t be 100% waterproof so some water will get through. So when u turn the return pump off the tank will atleast drain down to the bottom of the teeth on the weir & not where u have the adjustable piece set at. It will still raise the water level inside of the tank under normal operation though.

07/15/2018, 03:43 PM	#5
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	Yes, u need to add the adjustable peice to the weir. The water level in the tank & the water level inside of the overflow box are not relative to each other & are set by two different ways. Granted, u don’t want the water level inside of the overflow to be 3” or 4” lower then the tank because the waterfall entering the box would be loud. It is fine to have the water level inside of the overflow 1/2” to 1” below the tank water level & u actually want it this way. The adjustable weir will set the water level inside of the tank. The valve on the syphon drain is what will set the hieght of the water level inside of the overflow. Opening the valve will lower the water level & closing the valve will raise the water level. So if u want the emergency dry then just set it even with or just a little higher then the adjustable weir hieght. If u want to run a trickle then set it 1/2” to 1” lower then the weir. Then u use the valve on the syphon to agjust the water level inside of the box to where it has a trickle going down the emergency. The only issue with this is u have a really small overflow box, so if u set it up with a trickle any flunctuation will change the water level inside of the box quite a bit. If any more then a trickle goes down the emergency it will be loud, so the flunctuation may cause u to have to tune on the valve more often to keep it quiet

07/15/2018, 09:03 PM	#7
Lsufan Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Baton Rouge Posts: 1,410	I’m not sure why it has the extra holes. Only so much water can pass thru those holes. So the water should build up to the other slots. How much it builds up will be determined by how much flow u have, so u may have to get it running & play with the height of the weir. As a example. Say those extra holes will only allow 20 gph thru them & u have 200 gph going through the system. Then the water will build up past those holes until it has somewhere to go. In your case that will be the other slots in the overflow box.

07/20/2018, 11:36 AM	#12
fltekdiver Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,533	Thanks , just so I understand, if I'm using a trickle down the emergency, then the over flow box should be about 1/2" to an inch lower then the tank water level, and a slight trickle down the emergency, using the gate valve to adjust the over flow box or return pump if adjusting the tank level __________________ RedSea Reefer 350 ,Apex Controller ,2x Hydra 26HD lights Reef Octopus eSsence S-130 Protein Skimmer Reef Octopus VarioS return pump , UV sterilizer Ice Cap 3K Gyre - Started up 8/13/19

07/20/2018, 05:08 PM	#13
Vinny Kreyling Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 7,206	The siphon line is lower than the overflow teeth. The emergency line is higher than the water level you would like to run but not high enough for an overflow. The gate valve regulates the height of the water in the overflow box and water in the tank. Suggested height difference between pipes is 6" but is not set in stone. Water levels in the overflows tend to fluctuate somewhat, barometric pressure has been suggested as a possibility. Who knows? Generally my tank runs with slightly more than a trickle & is VERY hard to maintain a dry pipe. __________________ 250 gallon mixed reef, 2 Reefbreeder's Photon V 2, Deepwater BLDC 12, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 6 Tunze pumps.

07/21/2018, 07:09 AM	#15
Vinny Kreyling Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 7,206	Nothing says the emergency line has to trickle, but many including me have trouble getting this in real life. If you set it to where you want it & it works without problems then you are fine. You can always raise the drain pipe to reduce the waterfall noise. I had to create a baffle on my boxes to do just that. __________________ 250 gallon mixed reef, 2 Reefbreeder's Photon V 2, Deepwater BLDC 12, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 6 Tunze pumps.

07/22/2018, 08:00 AM	#16
fltekdiver Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,533	ok so don't focus on the emergency trickle so much , as long as the overflow box stays consistent in height, and gate valve match's the return pump speed to where the over flow box and tank stay at their levels __________________ RedSea Reefer 350 ,Apex Controller ,2x Hydra 26HD lights Reef Octopus eSsence S-130 Protein Skimmer Reef Octopus VarioS return pump , UV sterilizer Ice Cap 3K Gyre - Started up 8/13/19

07/22/2018, 10:15 AM	#17
Vinny Kreyling Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Miller Place, NY Posts: 7,206	Thumbs up emoji--If I knew how to do it------ __________________ 250 gallon mixed reef, 2 Reefbreeder's Photon V 2, Deepwater BLDC 12, DAS EX-3 Skimmer, MTC mini cal, 2-3/4" Sea Swirls, Aquacontroller & 6 Tunze pumps.

07/23/2018, 10:47 AM	#18
callsign4223 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 348	Getting the pump and full siphon to match exactly is almost impossible. And as soon as you do get them to match a pressure system will roll into town and mess it up anyway. This is why you always have a trickle in the emergency overflow. It isn't IDEAL, but it's how the system works. The bean animal design was specifically made to address this. It's a herbie with a TRUE DRY emergency. That's not to say the herbie design isn't reliable, but just know that it isn't 100% failproof.

07/23/2018, 11:03 AM	#19
fltekdiver Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Posts: 1,533	Thank you I appreciate the clarification __________________ RedSea Reefer 350 ,Apex Controller ,2x Hydra 26HD lights Reef Octopus eSsence S-130 Protein Skimmer Reef Octopus VarioS return pump , UV sterilizer Ice Cap 3K Gyre - Started up 8/13/19