Marine Ich/Cryptocaryon irritans - A Discussion

[ATJ]

Originally posted by TerryB
Steve,
You already know that I encouraged you in another thread here, but I hope you don't get the feeling that ATJ and I are picking at you. I enjoy getting into the details of this subject and there are not many people that I can discuss it with in any real depth. So when someone comes along that can hold this sort of conversation with me it is fun (maybe I am a nerd). I would be surprised if ATJ doesn't feel the same way. In reality, the attention you have received from ATJ and me is actually a form of compliment.
Take care,
Terry B

Ditto from me.

I think if the article had been crap, I probably wouldn't have wasted my time.

[ATJ]

Originally posted by StevenPro
TerryB,
I have not taken offense or anything. I love to talk shop. My only regret is I did not have these discussions before the article came out. All in all though, I am still happy with it and glad it is out there and available.

Had I known the article was in the works, I would have gladly worked with your or at least reviewed the article before it was published. I am happy to review Part Two, if you want.

Most of my comments on the article as it stands are nits (other than the bit about stress and maybe the formalin dip ) and won't make much difference to the average aquarist's use of the information.

I have been called a pedant on many occassions, but I feel that accuracy is important - OK, I'm stating the obvious. I know that I am not always as accurate as I should be and I cringe when I go back later and read some of the crap I have written. That's why my Marine "Ich" article still has "DRAFT" plastered all over it as I need to go back, correct some items and add some further information.

[Steven Pro]

Originally posted by ATJ
Ditto from me.

I think if the article had been crap, I probably wouldn't have wasted my time.

I literally laughed out loud at that. That is why I like answering questions in message boards, you can ignore whatever you wish.

[ATJ]

Originally posted by ATJ
Excystment Timing:
Yoshinaga & Dickerson were not the only ones to witness this pattern. Burgess and Matthews, 1994 "Cryotocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): photoperiod and transmission in marine fish" Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom 74: 445-453. is also referenced in Colorni & Burgess, 1997 as proof of excystment in the dark.

Unless I read it in the Burgess and Matthews paper, I would be wary. Far too many times I have read one paper state a claim from another paper only to read the second paper and find that the first paper took some liberties. It is also good to read and understand the methods they used to come up with their conclusions. I've added that paper to my list and will pick up a copy when next at the library.

I picked up a copy of the "photoperiod and transmission" paper today - and I had trouble finding it because the reference in Colorni and Burgess (1997) had the complete wrong page range.

I find their experiments on both timing of the trophont exit and theront emergence to be lacking and do not provide a convincing case for dark induced periodicity.

For the periodicity of trophont release from the host, they had two samples of infected fish kept in a 12L:12D photoperiod (12 hours light, 12 hours dark). For the first sample (of 3 fish) the 12L:12D photoperiod was maintained for 137 hours post-exposure. In the second sample (5 fish), one of the dark phases was skipped so that the fish (and trophonts) were exposed to 36 hours of light between 66 and 101 hours post-exposure.

In the first sample, 98% of the trophonts were release between 78 and 89 hours post-exposure, with the remaining 2% being released 102 to 113 hours post-exposure, both occurring during the dark. In the second sample, 99% of the trophonts were released between 78 and 89 hours (in the light) and the remaining 1% between 102 and 113 hours post-exposure (during the next dark phase). The authors appear to ignore the fact that the release times were consistant, regardless of whether it was during the light or dark phase and instead conclude that the 1% in the second sample occuring in the dark "supporting" the photoperiodicity theory.

In my opinion, there was insufficient manipulation of the photoperiods to be able make any conclusion about the influence of light.

For the theront emergence experiment they performed no manipulation of the photoperiods and kept 12L:12D for all the test. While all excystment occurred during the dark phases, there is nothing in the experiment that supports that it was trigger was the dark and light phases.

I am not saying that I believe there isn't a relationship between darkness and trophont exit or darkness and excystment, but just that I don't believe either Yoshinaga and Dickerson (1994) or Burgess and Matthews (1994) present unambiguous evidence for a link.

[Steven Pro]

ATJ,
You raise some interesting points. I, unfortunately, am still waiting on my copy through ILL. They are pathetically slow in the summer months. Now that I am thinking about it, could you give the correct page range? That maybe the reason ILL is taking so long.

[ATJ]

Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. Cryotocaryon irritans (Ciliophora): photoperiod and transmission in marine fish. Journal of the Marine Biological Association of the United Kingdom.74:535-542.

If the journals aren't bound into volumes, it isn't even in the same issue. I ended up looking through all the issues for volume 74 but couldn't find it (I obviously didn't look carefully enough). It was only lucky I'd also copied a couple of Diggles and Lester papers, that also referenced it.

[TerryB]

Hey guys,
If you want to critique some articles about fish disease then take a look at the September issue of Aquarium Fish Magazine (Sanjay Joshi) and Scott Micheals article in the 2004 annual addition of Aquarium USA. I flintched and pounded my head against the wall a few times when reading these two articles! LOL
Terry B

[ATJ]

Are either article available online? I wouldn't see any hardcopy magazines in Oz for a month or two after they are published.

[TerryB]

ATJ,
I don't think Aquarium USA is avialable online, but I could be wrong. Aquarium Fish magazine is available, but I think that it requires a subscription. FAMA is available and you can read it if you sign in as a guest. Check out this link and happy reading. http://www.famamagazine.com/e/env/00...nk=/index.html
Terry B

[Balihai]

Steven Pro- Thanks for the Articles! ATJ thanks for the discussion!

I know this is an old post but I'm new here and there is ALOT of info on this site...maybe there is a better place to post this?

Can we discuss the following?

Temperature for life cycle of Ich: Data/experience on this? I believe cooler temps (72-75F) slow down/MAY inhibit some outbreak.
Conversely might warmer temps speed up the cycle? Ideas on how warm?
The idea would be to speed the parasite lifecycle to encourage free-swimming stages so can be exposed to treatments such as UV/O3?/hyposalinity.

Ozone Does anyone know of data for residual ozone levels that might help? Besides running a separate reaction area where water passes through a very high concentration of O3, is then degassed, and returned to main system (essentially like a UV filter) might it be possible to run "background" levels of O3 in the system that would inhibit the parasite during one or more part of its life cycle?

Hyposalinity What is the latest recommended ppt and duration?

The reason for trying to discuss these methods is that there is sometimes the case where the display system cannot be broken down, the fish cannot be caught and removed, and it cannot be copper treated. Hyposalinity may be effective but at what cost to live rock, macroalgae, etc.?

I would like to think there may be the possibility of running a hyposalinity treatment, controlling temperature to speed/slow ich life cycle and utilize UV, O3, and water changes to try control a massive outbreak, if not to cure it...

Thanks

[Odell716]

I am having a bad outbreak of ich in my reef tank... I was told that i should try Garlic, Raise in Salinity to around 1.027, let temp raise to around 87-89 Degrees far., and then i was going to try some Melafix.... there isn't an option to get the fish out bc i have to much live rock and coral... What are your thought on this?

[billy mitchell]

I have been talking to a guy in Australia and he swears by a product by
Poly Lab called Medic
it is used successfully in reef tanks to control and remove Ich,marine Velvet and other parasites
has anyone tried this product