I have been in the process of cycling my water and it seems stuck

Shrimplady · 09/14/2016, 09:44 AM

Hi ya'll. I have 11 30 gallon tanks that I'm cycling right now. I am doing this in a university lab and had "protocol" to follow loosely when I started. The people before me used "oyster shell buckets" with a airstone through the middle of it. I have never heard of it before, so I just received sponge filters. We use a refrigerated mix to add bacteria initially (59 ml) and .34 grams of Ammonium chloride.
Day 42 of my cycle, I have had nitrites capped out at 5 PPM even after two water changes. My ammonia is gone by morning after I add it every other day. I'm getting a off white gooey film on the bottom of the tanks; assuming it's bacteria. Do I need more substrate? Do you have suggestions?

texdoc77 · 09/14/2016, 10:10 AM

I think you may be right with needing more substrate, but what is your nitrate? Also what is your set up. Is each 30 gallon tank separated from the others or are they all connected with some kind of flow? Did you only add ammonia and bacteria initially?

Shrimplady · 09/14/2016, 10:21 AM

I had my nitrates through the roof as well before my water changes. Theywere at 160 PPM now down to 20 PPM or lower. Each tank is seperate in a 60 gallon drum (looks like a garbage can) I have airstones for the DO, a heater, oyster bucket in each one. I added the bacteria initially. I have been continuously adding ammonia. I will be using this water for experimenting eventually (housing white pacific shrimp) and so I'm trying to find the best methods.

mcgyvr · 09/14/2016, 10:39 AM

What is in the tank now?
What is going in the tanks?

There is very little bacteria in the water column itself and instead it collects on surfaces vs free floating around...
A tank with nothing but water in it has very little surface area compared to one with rock/sand,etc...FAR..FAR less..

The point of cycling is to ensure sufficient bacterial levels so that whatever ammonia may be introduced into the tank (through dead material/fish poop,etc..) is quickly converted to its not as toxic forms (nitrite then nitrate) and eventually to nitrogen gas and out..

As you are still adding ammonia you are just part of the process..Its processing it the best it can.. I can't imaging a true/normal cycle taking more than 4 weeks ever..
What you are seeing now is just how fast the current tank can process X amounts of ammonia.. and if nitrite levels aren't falling and that ammonia being converted quick enough thats just basically just what the tank can do given the surface area/bacterial population is able to maintain..

texdoc77 · 09/14/2016, 11:53 AM

OK so you have a 30 gallon tank sitting in a 60gallon drum with an oyster bucket with sponge filters along with an airstone and a heater?

Advice:
1. Stop adding ammonia
2. Do a few more water changes
3. Once you get your ammonia and nitrite to 0, and your nitrate < 20 I think it is safe to add the shrimp (depending on how many you will be adding). If just a few per tank no worries, if you are adding scores you may need to add them in stages to allow the bioload to increase the bacteria.
4. Do weekly water changes of about 25% and I bet you will be good.
5. I would test ammonia, nitrite and nitrate several times a week to make sure you are keeping them in check initially and then probably weekly before water changes.

A little more water movement would be ideal, but I'm not sure if you're set up for that. Also you may want to go to a local fish shop to see how they keep all their tanks plumbed with flow. Might give you some ideas, the last thing you want with your research is to have mass shrimp die off secondary to water issues.

Keep us posted.

Shrimplady · 09/14/2016, 12:58 PM

Currently, there is nothing alive in the tank. I have 30 gallons of water in a 60 gallon drum. I have done two water changes of three of the tanks and they are still reading high nitrites. I won't be getting shrimp soon, until my tanks are ready. In that case should I not add any more ammonia? My water movement looks decent my DO sits around 7 mg/L. I've been taking readings almost every day so far.

texdoc77 · 09/14/2016, 02:57 PM

It sounds like the tank is cycled well especially if you are getting that many nitrates. It sounds like the ammonia is overwhelming the bacteria you do have, but the shrimp likely will not overwhelm them, but that is why I recommend plenty of tests once you introduce the shrimp. Of course the bacteria do live off the waste products so you could dose some ammonia every 4 days or so to help keep the bacteria from dying off. In this scenario you are getting much less ammonia while continuing to remove excess nitrate from the system.

CStrickland · 09/14/2016, 10:44 PM

Your nitrates aren't that high. You won't get an accurate reading for them until your bactreria clear nitrites, so there's no point testing for them yet. Our tests are not able to distinguish nitrites and nitrates well, they read a little nitrite as a lot of nitrate.

Airstone are ineffective means of oxygenating water. You're better off just having enough current in the bucket to roil the surface for gas exchange by using little fans or powerheads.

Is an oyster shell bucket just a bucket of oyster shells? Or is it a special thing?

You'll see all kinds of films, that's not an issue.

Did they give you an idea of your goal parameters before they handed off the project? Like, what levels of nitrates can these shrimp handle, etc.

Shrimplady · 09/15/2016, 07:47 AM

CStrickland,

In response to your post:

If the tests we are using aren't very reliable and can't tell the difference between nitrites and nitrates what is going to be my main indication that my tank is cycled?

I agree powerheads are the best way, but I also have a budget and have to work with what I've got so far. I have multiple airlines in each tank and the sponge filter adds to water movement.

The oyster shells were a means of a filtration system. The shells are placed in a small ice cream bucket filled two inches high, then a plastic retainer with holes drilled into it is placed on top. A airline with an airstone is placed inside the retainer and there are more oyster shells on top of the retainer. The people before me said it was effective and I personally think it was a waste of my time to use it exclusively for filtration. The oyster shells are not that small and come very dirty. I'm currently placing 10 gallon buckets in the tanks with more oyster shells only as a means of substrate.

supposed parameters are:

pH: 8.5
Nitrite: 0.15 or less
Nitrate: 30 or less (I personally think it should be below 20)
Ammonia: 0
Alkalinity: 60-120
specific gravity: 1.010-1.025
temp: 24-27 degrees C (I keep it around 30 for acclimating the water)

to Textdoc77:

If my tank is cycled, why do I have so many nitrites? I'm too worried to put anything in with my tests still reading nitrites.

cheers ya'll. I appreciate all of your help because frankly, my coworkers are playing ignorance to this project and have left me on my own.

Capsle · 09/15/2016, 04:41 PM

Your tank will be cycle when both Ammonia and Nitrites read 0 and you only read Nitrates.

Increase the surface area in the tank and it will help. The bacteria need something to cling to and places to live.

As for tests, it's not that they aren't reliable but if you have any Nitrite reading when you test it will throw off the Nitrate tests. Simply meaning, for an accurate Nitrate test your nitrites should be at 0.

Hope that clears some confusion up.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dkuhlmann · 09/16/2016, 03:57 AM

Sunsun is a company that makes powerheads and you can get them for under $20 for two of them depending on the gph you require. I've got the 800 gph and only use one in my 40b along with my sump return and get plenty of circulation in my tank and good surface agitation. You can't beat them for the money. If you search Ebay and take a look at all of the different ones they have and from different vendors. Here is the search link that I just pulled up on Ebay for you. There are many of us here that use them and haven't had any issues with them. I bought my two 800's for like $8 free shipping. Just have to search around.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...+pump&_sacat=0

texdoc77 · 09/16/2016, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrimplady

to Textdoc77:

If my tank is cycled, why do I have so many nitrites? I'm too worried to put anything in with my tests still reading nitrites.

cheers ya'll. I appreciate all of your help because frankly, my coworkers are playing ignorance to this project and have left me on my own.

I think you are still getting nitrites because you keep adding ammonia. This is changed to nitrite by one bacteria which is then changed to nitrate by another bacteria. This doesn't happen instantaneously and you're adding daily ammonia so nitrite is being made daily.

CStrickland · 09/17/2016, 07:19 PM

+1 on the SunSun powerheads.

Forcing a bunch of air through a bucket of shells is going to result in elevated nitrates. As will a sponge filter.

I'm a little cautious about using some of our standard wisdom for your unique situation. It sounds like your breeding shrimps for some kind of project. I know when people breed animals they are much more cautious with parameters. For example, iirc one of the only times nitrite is even an issue in our hobby is when you are hatching baby fish like breeding clowns. Also, inverts like shrimp have lower tolerances for nitrate.

When we talk about a tank being 'cycled' it means we can start adding fish slowly, over time, because there is enough nitrifying bacteria to convert the toxic ammonia to nontoxic forms. As we add fish, the bacteria populations grow in response to the extra poop and pee to get a stable and balanced population for long term success. It's more like you have a good enough head start to build your base, not a thing that just gets finished one day. So while I might tell a new reefer that once their tank can clear 2ppm of ammonia in 24 hours they can buy a small fish, I wouldn't tell them they will have success breeding fry.

Honestly if the setup that you've inherited worked for your predecessor, I'd probably copy it to start and then tweak somethings slowly once the setup is established. For now, maybe just leave it alone for 3-4 days: no ammonia, no testing etc. and then come back and see what you've got. A lot of tanks seem to cycle the way pots of water boil - the watched ones don't.

Shrimplady · 09/20/2016, 09:53 AM

I will try and get powerheads, I agree it's a great idea. I think the airstones are quite inefficient.

So for the shrimp, we will be holding them a month tops. We will be getting at least 4 different sizes of shrimp at some point.

I have not added ammonia in 7 days now and one of my tanks has been slowly declining in nitrites. I think instead of using buckets with oyster shells I will just put at least two inches deep of oyster shells in the bottom of each drum. This will create more surface area and hopefully enough for the bacteria to be happy with.

Do you have any other ideas that I could use instead of a sponge filter, we will be doing regular water changes to keep nitrates at bay once the shrimp are around. We will also add carbon filters to suck up phenols and other wastes that would be detrimental to the shrimp.

Should I dose the tank with ammonia today?

cheers

09/14/2016, 09:44 AM	#1
Shrimplady Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Madison WI Posts: 13	I have been in the process of cycling my water and it seems stuck Hi ya'll. I have 11 30 gallon tanks that I'm cycling right now. I am doing this in a university lab and had "protocol" to follow loosely when I started. The people before me used "oyster shell buckets" with a airstone through the middle of it. I have never heard of it before, so I just received sponge filters. We use a refrigerated mix to add bacteria initially (59 ml) and .34 grams of Ammonium chloride. Day 42 of my cycle, I have had nitrites capped out at 5 PPM even after two water changes. My ammonia is gone by morning after I add it every other day. I'm getting a off white gooey film on the bottom of the tanks; assuming it's bacteria. Do I need more substrate? Do you have suggestions?

09/14/2016, 10:10 AM	#2
texdoc77 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 417	I think you may be right with needing more substrate, but what is your nitrate? Also what is your set up. Is each 30 gallon tank separated from the others or are they all connected with some kind of flow? Did you only add ammonia and bacteria initially? __________________ "The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self; all your wishes and precautions; to Christ." -C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity) Current Tank Info: Currently Rebuilding

09/14/2016, 10:39 AM	#4
mcgyvr Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 20,050	What is in the tank now? What is going in the tanks? There is very little bacteria in the water column itself and instead it collects on surfaces vs free floating around... A tank with nothing but water in it has very little surface area compared to one with rock/sand,etc...FAR..FAR less.. The point of cycling is to ensure sufficient bacterial levels so that whatever ammonia may be introduced into the tank (through dead material/fish poop,etc..) is quickly converted to its not as toxic forms (nitrite then nitrate) and eventually to nitrogen gas and out.. As you are still adding ammonia you are just part of the process..Its processing it the best it can.. I can't imaging a true/normal cycle taking more than 4 weeks ever.. What you are seeing now is just how fast the current tank can process X amounts of ammonia.. and if nitrite levels aren't falling and that ammonia being converted quick enough thats just basically just what the tank can do given the surface area/bacterial population is able to maintain.. __________________ Who me?

09/14/2016, 11:53 AM	#5
texdoc77 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 417	OK so you have a 30 gallon tank sitting in a 60gallon drum with an oyster bucket with sponge filters along with an airstone and a heater? Advice: 1. Stop adding ammonia 2. Do a few more water changes 3. Once you get your ammonia and nitrite to 0, and your nitrate < 20 I think it is safe to add the shrimp (depending on how many you will be adding). If just a few per tank no worries, if you are adding scores you may need to add them in stages to allow the bioload to increase the bacteria. 4. Do weekly water changes of about 25% and I bet you will be good. 5. I would test ammonia, nitrite and nitrate several times a week to make sure you are keeping them in check initially and then probably weekly before water changes. A little more water movement would be ideal, but I'm not sure if you're set up for that. Also you may want to go to a local fish shop to see how they keep all their tanks plumbed with flow. Might give you some ideas, the last thing you want with your research is to have mass shrimp die off secondary to water issues. Keep us posted. __________________ "The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self; all your wishes and precautions; to Christ." -C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity) Current Tank Info: Currently Rebuilding

09/14/2016, 02:57 PM	#7
texdoc77 Registered Member Join Date: May 2015 Location: Waco, TX Posts: 417	It sounds like the tank is cycled well especially if you are getting that many nitrates. It sounds like the ammonia is overwhelming the bacteria you do have, but the shrimp likely will not overwhelm them, but that is why I recommend plenty of tests once you introduce the shrimp. Of course the bacteria do live off the waste products so you could dose some ammonia every 4 days or so to help keep the bacteria from dying off. In this scenario you are getting much less ammonia while continuing to remove excess nitrate from the system. __________________ "The terrible thing, the almost impossible thing, is to hand over your whole self; all your wishes and precautions; to Christ." -C.S. Lewis (Mere Christianity) Current Tank Info: Currently Rebuilding

09/14/2016, 10:21 AM	#3
Shrimplady Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Madison WI Posts: 13	I had my nitrates through the roof as well before my water changes. Theywere at 160 PPM now down to 20 PPM or lower. Each tank is seperate in a 60 gallon drum (looks like a garbage can) I have airstones for the DO, a heater, oyster bucket in each one. I added the bacteria initially. I have been continuously adding ammonia. I will be using this water for experimenting eventually (housing white pacific shrimp) and so I'm trying to find the best methods.

09/14/2016, 12:58 PM	#6
Shrimplady Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Madison WI Posts: 13	Currently, there is nothing alive in the tank. I have 30 gallons of water in a 60 gallon drum. I have done two water changes of three of the tanks and they are still reading high nitrites. I won't be getting shrimp soon, until my tanks are ready. In that case should I not add any more ammonia? My water movement looks decent my DO sits around 7 mg/L. I've been taking readings almost every day so far.

09/14/2016, 10:44 PM	#8
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	Your nitrates aren't that high. You won't get an accurate reading for them until your bactreria clear nitrites, so there's no point testing for them yet. Our tests are not able to distinguish nitrites and nitrates well, they read a little nitrite as a lot of nitrate. Airstone are ineffective means of oxygenating water. You're better off just having enough current in the bucket to roil the surface for gas exchange by using little fans or powerheads. Is an oyster shell bucket just a bucket of oyster shells? Or is it a special thing? You'll see all kinds of films, that's not an issue. Did they give you an idea of your goal parameters before they handed off the project? Like, what levels of nitrates can these shrimp handle, etc. __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

09/15/2016, 07:47 AM	#9
Shrimplady Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Madison WI Posts: 13	CStrickland, In response to your post: If the tests we are using aren't very reliable and can't tell the difference between nitrites and nitrates what is going to be my main indication that my tank is cycled? I agree powerheads are the best way, but I also have a budget and have to work with what I've got so far. I have multiple airlines in each tank and the sponge filter adds to water movement. The oyster shells were a means of a filtration system. The shells are placed in a small ice cream bucket filled two inches high, then a plastic retainer with holes drilled into it is placed on top. A airline with an airstone is placed inside the retainer and there are more oyster shells on top of the retainer. The people before me said it was effective and I personally think it was a waste of my time to use it exclusively for filtration. The oyster shells are not that small and come very dirty. I'm currently placing 10 gallon buckets in the tanks with more oyster shells only as a means of substrate. supposed parameters are: pH: 8.5 Nitrite: 0.15 or less Nitrate: 30 or less (I personally think it should be below 20) Ammonia: 0 Alkalinity: 60-120 specific gravity: 1.010-1.025 temp: 24-27 degrees C (I keep it around 30 for acclimating the water) to Textdoc77: If my tank is cycled, why do I have so many nitrites? I'm too worried to put anything in with my tests still reading nitrites. cheers ya'll. I appreciate all of your help because frankly, my coworkers are playing ignorance to this project and have left me on my own.

09/15/2016, 04:41 PM	#10
Capsle Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada Posts: 385	Your tank will be cycle when both Ammonia and Nitrites read 0 and you only read Nitrates. Increase the surface area in the tank and it will help. The bacteria need something to cling to and places to live. As for tests, it's not that they aren't reliable but if you have any Nitrite reading when you test it will throw off the Nitrate tests. Simply meaning, for an accurate Nitrate test your nitrites should be at 0. Hope that clears some confusion up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ Caps Current Tank Info: 65G DT with custom overflow, 35G custom sump, maxspect R420r 180w 15K, reef octopus classic 150 skimmer.

09/16/2016, 03:57 AM	#11
Dkuhlmann Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,823	Sunsun is a company that makes powerheads and you can get them for under $20 for two of them depending on the gph you require. I've got the 800 gph and only use one in my 40b along with my sump return and get plenty of circulation in my tank and good surface agitation. You can't beat them for the money. If you search Ebay and take a look at all of the different ones they have and from different vendors. Here is the search link that I just pulled up on Ebay for you. There are many of us here that use them and haven't had any issues with them. I bought my two 800's for like $8 free shipping. Just have to search around. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...+pump&_sacat=0 __________________ Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS. Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300

09/17/2016, 07:19 PM	#13
CStrickland Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: New England, U.S. Posts: 4,595	+1 on the SunSun powerheads. Forcing a bunch of air through a bucket of shells is going to result in elevated nitrates. As will a sponge filter. I'm a little cautious about using some of our standard wisdom for your unique situation. It sounds like your breeding shrimps for some kind of project. I know when people breed animals they are much more cautious with parameters. For example, iirc one of the only times nitrite is even an issue in our hobby is when you are hatching baby fish like breeding clowns. Also, inverts like shrimp have lower tolerances for nitrate. When we talk about a tank being 'cycled' it means we can start adding fish slowly, over time, because there is enough nitrifying bacteria to convert the toxic ammonia to nontoxic forms. As we add fish, the bacteria populations grow in response to the extra poop and pee to get a stable and balanced population for long term success. It's more like you have a good enough head start to build your base, not a thing that just gets finished one day. So while I might tell a new reefer that once their tank can clear 2ppm of ammonia in 24 hours they can buy a small fish, I wouldn't tell them they will have success breeding fry. Honestly if the setup that you've inherited worked for your predecessor, I'd probably copy it to start and then tweak somethings slowly once the setup is established. For now, maybe just leave it alone for 3-4 days: no ammonia, no testing etc. and then come back and see what you've got. A lot of tanks seem to cycle the way pots of water boil - the watched ones don't. __________________ If you're havin tank problems I feel bad for you, son. I got 99 problems but a fish ain't one Current Tank Info: 3/2016 upgrade to 120g. Chalk bass, melanurus, firefish, starry blenny, canary blenny, lyretail anthias, engineer gobys, kole tang. Softies / LPS / NPS. <3 noob4life <3

09/20/2016, 09:53 AM	#14
Shrimplady Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Madison WI Posts: 13	I will try and get powerheads, I agree it's a great idea. I think the airstones are quite inefficient. So for the shrimp, we will be holding them a month tops. We will be getting at least 4 different sizes of shrimp at some point. I have not added ammonia in 7 days now and one of my tanks has been slowly declining in nitrites. I think instead of using buckets with oyster shells I will just put at least two inches deep of oyster shells in the bottom of each drum. This will create more surface area and hopefully enough for the bacteria to be happy with. Do you have any other ideas that I could use instead of a sponge filter, we will be doing regular water changes to keep nitrates at bay once the shrimp are around. We will also add carbon filters to suck up phenols and other wastes that would be detrimental to the shrimp. Should I dose the tank with ammonia today? cheers