How long does it take to cycle a tank without bacterial additives?

Chris918 · 02/21/2018, 05:33 PM

Hi everyone.

I purchased Dr. Tim's One and Only to cycle my new aquarium. I added Ammonium Chloride to 2ppm to start the cycle. A week later the ammonia is still at 2ppm with no detectable nitrites or nitrates. For whatever reason it looks like I got a bad batch. My question is if I were to forego buying another bacterial product and just let the cycle happen naturally, how long would that take in your experience?

lapin · 02/21/2018, 06:38 PM

1 month or more. Depending on the amount of bacteria you are needing. Bacteria is in the air and on all surfaces that have not been sterilized. Its growing.

Pet Detective · 02/21/2018, 06:47 PM

This is exactly why I hate so called "bacterial additives"....people don't even bother to learn THE most important process in keeping a fish/reef tank.

Once you grasp this process fully....all other problem solving becomes much easier.

https://www.thespruce.com/what-is-th...rocess-2924241

Pslreefer · 02/21/2018, 07:29 PM

Throw a dead piece of shrimp in the tank and let it rot away, about 4-6 weeks to complete cycle.

Chris918 · 02/21/2018, 07:31 PM

Don't get me wrong I am well aware of the Nitrogen Cycle. When I was a kid I dropped in a shrimp and did the cycle the old fashioned way. Since returning to the hobby I have cycled tanks using bacteria like Bio Spira or Dr. Tim's and in most cases get a 0 ammonia reading, 0 nitrite, and a reading for nitrate within a week and a half. Dr. Tim's has always given me a measurable nitrite reading within 2-3 days so this was abnormal in my experience. I haven't cycled a tank without nitrifying bacteria being added in quite some time so I was just curious.

Sk8r · 02/21/2018, 07:39 PM

Test such a tank with fishfood and some hermits. Then work up to a larger crew before you add your first (quarantined) fish...the bacteria need to proliferate into rock and sandbed and become capable of handling more poo.

JohnZena · 02/22/2018, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris918

Hi everyone.

I purchased Dr. Tim's One and Only to cycle my new aquarium. I added Ammonium Chloride to 2ppm to start the cycle. A week later the ammonia is still at 2ppm with no detectable nitrites or nitrates. For whatever reason it looks like I got a bad batch. My question is if I were to forego buying another bacterial product and just let the cycle happen naturally, how long would that take in your experience?

According to what I read just now, drops of ammonia are added on days 1, 3 and day 6. I read that on "Dr. Tims Aquatics Recipes for Success". According to this it was used incorrectly.

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mitch91175 · 02/22/2018, 08:16 AM

If you are into basketball, you know about the 76ers, "The Process". Well this is the same thing. Just sit back and let the cycle do its thing. Nothing you should attempt to do to speed it up. While waiting for it to complete, think about what you want to get out of this hobby. Not one single think is gonna happen fast. Takes time for EVERYTHING.

You WILL learn patience doing this hobby or it will get the best of you. Not that you do not already have patience, but the tank cycle is one of the most basic aspect of keeping a saltwater aquarium. You do not want to start off with problems because they will only progress and make you want to bang your head against the wall.

I lacked patience in the beginning and it cost me dearly. Still do at times today, but I try to manage my expectations to control any impatience.

Sk8r · 02/22/2018, 02:03 PM

True that!
Cycling is not about what happens to the water: that's replaceable. It's about what happens to the rock and sand and the bacterial population that lives way deep in the pores of the rock and sand. That's where your water gets purified and re-calciumed and all those good operations. You can keep a rock in a stream for a week, and crack it open and water will have penetrated only a little ways from the surface. Take a rock that's been in the stream for a long time, crack it open, and you will see a difference. So these bacterial doses are nice: we used to do that back in the day---in the 1980's, we'd use dry rock and crushed coral sand and get a couple of gallons of discard water from the lfs, pour it in, and wait 12 weeks for the dose to do its job, bringing in a lot of bacteria in that water. But it also might bring in ich and viruses and other badness, so we went over to just using fish-food with dry (but washed) aragonite sand (doesn't clump like CC) and conditioned rock that's been soaked in saltwater for weeks and weeks---and manage a 4 week cycle.

The bacteria-in-a-bottle are concentrated, yes, but they still need time to really colonize your tank. By adding ammonia, you're just feeding the bacteria, and DO UNDERSTAND that once that's done, you never add it again---it'll kill your fish. The idea is that it hypes the strain of bacteria that take care of ammonia if it should arise. But ammonia is NOT a desirable part of tank chemistry---I've run into one post that makes me think I should make that point: ammonia is not a fix for a tank problem. Keep a bottle of Prime or Amquel on hand, always, so that if you have a tank headed for trouble, that ammonia-absorber can save your bacon. Another thing you should think of is eliminating phosphate (algae fuel) that may come in with unconditioned sand and rock, or non-ro/di water. If you're conditioning your own rock, you might think about starting a GFO reactor running on the tub.

Anyway, that's the accumulated wisdom we've got to offer you: the bacteria speed it, but cannot overcome the physical problem of not-enough-time-to-grow, and going very slowly with additions of life beyond invertebrates is the best way to go.

ReefkeeperZ · 02/22/2018, 07:31 PM

the cycle never ends, just the initial curve establishes, then when you change something you need to give you tank time to adjust. a very basic cycle IMHO takes about 8 weeks to get established (yes it can balance out faster depending on, everything), meanwhile over the next year or so your tank is still going through fluxes of micro and macro fauna, benthic organisms, micro and macro algaes. a marine tank is never really out of flux because we are constantly changing things, but if you can keep a tank relatively stable I would say a tank is mature around a year to 2 years depending on how many speed bumps you hit along the way. I know that the original question was answered in the second sentence of my post but the rest is a heads up, patience is key here, 90% of reefers and marine tank keepers give up within the first year because they rush and everything goes to hell and they throw away a $#!T ton of money doing it.

I cycled my current 40 breeder for 7 months fish-less and coral-less, then for some reason I hit every bump I some how dodged with my last tank. que sera sera.

ramseynb · 02/23/2018, 03:14 AM

I’m gonna go slightly against the grain here. I use dry rock that I seed with a small amount of live rock and whatever hitch hikers I get from frags.

I use ammonia to spike the tank then bio-spira to add bacteria. Once the cycle’s complete, I’ll start adding fish and some easy coral.

It’s then that my patience comes into play. Once I have fish and some easier to keep coral, I slow down and let things balance out. I’m keeping SPS so YMMV. I currently have some LPS at the bottom of the tank. I’m carbon dosing (zeovit) and have pretty close to all the fish I want. All the LPS and fish are doing great. My next step is to allow the dry rock to seed more and allow the biodiversity to spread. It also gives me time to test nitrates, phosphates, alk, calc and mag and make sure everything’s steady and where I want it. Once that’s done I’ll move off the bottom of the tank and get some easier SPS and start to fill in the middle of the tank. Then I’ll test more and start dosing if needed. After all that, assuming all parameters are stable, I’ll start adding acros. Of course I’ll be testing everything to get a baseline of what the big three uptake is.

I think the advice to wait forever to cycle and start adding stuff is great for beginners, but it’s overhyped IMO if you know what you’re doing.

mitch91175 · 02/23/2018, 07:23 AM

Go for it it you know what you’re doing

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

02/21/2018, 05:33 PM	#1
Chris918 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 174	How long does it take to cycle a tank without bacterial additives? Hi everyone. I purchased Dr. Tim's One and Only to cycle my new aquarium. I added Ammonium Chloride to 2ppm to start the cycle. A week later the ammonia is still at 2ppm with no detectable nitrites or nitrates. For whatever reason it looks like I got a bad batch. My question is if I were to forego buying another bacterial product and just let the cycle happen naturally, how long would that take in your experience?

02/21/2018, 07:39 PM	#6
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Test such a tank with fishfood and some hermits. Then work up to a larger crew before you add your first (quarantined) fish...the bacteria need to proliferate into rock and sandbed and become capable of handling more poo. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

02/22/2018, 02:03 PM	#9
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	True that! Cycling is not about what happens to the water: that's replaceable. It's about what happens to the rock and sand and the bacterial population that lives way deep in the pores of the rock and sand. That's where your water gets purified and re-calciumed and all those good operations. You can keep a rock in a stream for a week, and crack it open and water will have penetrated only a little ways from the surface. Take a rock that's been in the stream for a long time, crack it open, and you will see a difference. So these bacterial doses are nice: we used to do that back in the day---in the 1980's, we'd use dry rock and crushed coral sand and get a couple of gallons of discard water from the lfs, pour it in, and wait 12 weeks for the dose to do its job, bringing in a lot of bacteria in that water. But it also might bring in ich and viruses and other badness, so we went over to just using fish-food with dry (but washed) aragonite sand (doesn't clump like CC) and conditioned rock that's been soaked in saltwater for weeks and weeks---and manage a 4 week cycle. The bacteria-in-a-bottle are concentrated, yes, but they still need time to really colonize your tank. By adding ammonia, you're just feeding the bacteria, and DO UNDERSTAND that once that's done, you never add it again---it'll kill your fish. The idea is that it hypes the strain of bacteria that take care of ammonia if it should arise. But ammonia is NOT a desirable part of tank chemistry---I've run into one post that makes me think I should make that point: ammonia is not a fix for a tank problem. Keep a bottle of Prime or Amquel on hand, always, so that if you have a tank headed for trouble, that ammonia-absorber can save your bacon. Another thing you should think of is eliminating phosphate (algae fuel) that may come in with unconditioned sand and rock, or non-ro/di water. If you're conditioning your own rock, you might think about starting a GFO reactor running on the tub. Anyway, that's the accumulated wisdom we've got to offer you: the bacteria speed it, but cannot overcome the physical problem of not-enough-time-to-grow, and going very slowly with additions of life beyond invertebrates is the best way to go. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

02/22/2018, 07:31 PM	#10
ReefkeeperZ Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 392	the cycle never ends, just the initial curve establishes, then when you change something you need to give you tank time to adjust. a very basic cycle IMHO takes about 8 weeks to get established (yes it can balance out faster depending on, everything), meanwhile over the next year or so your tank is still going through fluxes of micro and macro fauna, benthic organisms, micro and macro algaes. a marine tank is never really out of flux because we are constantly changing things, but if you can keep a tank relatively stable I would say a tank is mature around a year to 2 years depending on how many speed bumps you hit along the way. I know that the original question was answered in the second sentence of my post but the rest is a heads up, patience is key here, 90% of reefers and marine tank keepers give up within the first year because they rush and everything goes to hell and they throw away a $#!T ton of money doing it. I cycled my current 40 breeder for 7 months fish-less and coral-less, then for some reason I hit every bump I some how dodged with my last tank. que sera sera. __________________ insert witty catchphrase here

02/23/2018, 03:14 AM	#11
ramseynb Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: New Braunfels, TX Posts: 630	I’m gonna go slightly against the grain here. I use dry rock that I seed with a small amount of live rock and whatever hitch hikers I get from frags. I use ammonia to spike the tank then bio-spira to add bacteria. Once the cycle’s complete, I’ll start adding fish and some easy coral. It’s then that my patience comes into play. Once I have fish and some easier to keep coral, I slow down and let things balance out. I’m keeping SPS so YMMV. I currently have some LPS at the bottom of the tank. I’m carbon dosing (zeovit) and have pretty close to all the fish I want. All the LPS and fish are doing great. My next step is to allow the dry rock to seed more and allow the biodiversity to spread. It also gives me time to test nitrates, phosphates, alk, calc and mag and make sure everything’s steady and where I want it. Once that’s done I’ll move off the bottom of the tank and get some easier SPS and start to fill in the middle of the tank. Then I’ll test more and start dosing if needed. After all that, assuming all parameters are stable, I’ll start adding acros. Of course I’ll be testing everything to get a baseline of what the big three uptake is. I think the advice to wait forever to cycle and start adding stuff is great for beginners, but it’s overhyped IMO if you know what you’re doing. __________________ How do you make an octopus laugh? Ten tickles!

02/21/2018, 06:38 PM	#2
lapin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2017 Location: Austin Posts: 801	1 month or more. Depending on the amount of bacteria you are needing. Bacteria is in the air and on all surfaces that have not been sterilized. Its growing.

02/21/2018, 06:47 PM	#3
Pet Detective Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 328	This is exactly why I hate so called "bacterial additives"....people don't even bother to learn THE most important process in keeping a fish/reef tank. Once you grasp this process fully....all other problem solving becomes much easier. https://www.thespruce.com/what-is-th...rocess-2924241

02/21/2018, 07:29 PM	#4
Pslreefer In Memoriam Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Port St Lucie, FL Posts: 597	Throw a dead piece of shrimp in the tank and let it rot away, about 4-6 weeks to complete cycle.

02/21/2018, 07:31 PM	#5
Chris918 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Posts: 174	Don't get me wrong I am well aware of the Nitrogen Cycle. When I was a kid I dropped in a shrimp and did the cycle the old fashioned way. Since returning to the hobby I have cycled tanks using bacteria like Bio Spira or Dr. Tim's and in most cases get a 0 ammonia reading, 0 nitrite, and a reading for nitrate within a week and a half. Dr. Tim's has always given me a measurable nitrite reading within 2-3 days so this was abnormal in my experience. I haven't cycled a tank without nitrifying bacteria being added in quite some time so I was just curious.

02/22/2018, 08:16 AM	#8
mitch91175 Premium Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 303	If you are into basketball, you know about the 76ers, "The Process". Well this is the same thing. Just sit back and let the cycle do its thing. Nothing you should attempt to do to speed it up. While waiting for it to complete, think about what you want to get out of this hobby. Not one single think is gonna happen fast. Takes time for EVERYTHING. You WILL learn patience doing this hobby or it will get the best of you. Not that you do not already have patience, but the tank cycle is one of the most basic aspect of keeping a saltwater aquarium. You do not want to start off with problems because they will only progress and make you want to bang your head against the wall. I lacked patience in the beginning and it cost me dearly. Still do at times today, but I try to manage my expectations to control any impatience.

02/23/2018, 07:23 AM	#12
mitch91175 Premium Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 303	Go for it it you know what you’re doing Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk