Algae Scrubber Basics

[Vladec]

P.s.

[Jay_R]

Hi All, taking a keen interest in this thread.

I do not have room for an algae scrubber, so was wondering if rigging up a submerged screen within the second section of my sump with adequate lighting would do the trick?

Does the algae need to be out of water - It seems to do very well submerged in my DT lol

Also, and finally - would a 24 hr photo period / alternate photo period to DT be preferred?

[fishguy597]

I need a little advice. I have had my ats up for a little over a month. I have harvested it three times. Everything appeared ok until my last harvest. Ever since then it seams to me that I am growing cyano with tufts of gha. On the edges I can see some air bubbles. My sump is starting to grow it in there too. I have a little on my sand bed that I have been fighting for a while but nothing to crazy. Should I put some Red slime remover in and treat the tank? Or just let it keep going the way it is?

[SantaMonica]

I think vladec is saying that to emulate the natural filtration of the ocean the closest, then a variety of scrubber growth would do that.

I do not have room for an algae scrubber, so was wondering if rigging up a submerged screen within the second section of my sump with adequate lighting would do the trick? Does the algae need to be out of water

If underwater (i.e. the upflow versions) you will need bubbles to get rapid enough growth to filter. This is what generates the thin air/water turbulence layer that works best.

growing cyano with tufts of gha

Sounds like a weak light.

[Vladec]

The main task is not the weight of algae - the main task is variety of species of algae!

Full spectrum light is required for the growth of different species of algae.

Different species of algae consume the different composition of micro and macro elements from seawater.

This allows you to align the performance of sea water.

For example -
Makroalgae refugium stop the growth (algae stopped growing - hopefully you quadrupeds such cases) and algae scrubber continues to grow algae.

P.s. to SantaMonica - yesterday was going to register on your web site and discuss this issue - unfortunately I could not find the forum

[Crusinjimbo]

Fishguy, do a three day lights out in the DT. It has worked better for me than any slime reducing product I have found. No cost or chemicals and very effective on Cyano.

[thejuggernaut]

Originally Posted by Vladec

The main task is not the weight of algae - the main task is variety of species of algae!

Full spectrum light is required for the growth of different species of algae.

Different species of algae consume the different composition of micro and macro elements from seawater.

This allows you to align the performance of sea water.




P.s. to SantaMonica - yesterday was going to register on your web site and discuss this issue - unfortunately I could not find the forum

I think the main reason everyone wants to grow the one variety is because it hangs on to the screen well, and because it allow a greater mass of algae to grow on the screen before harvesting. Some of the slimy or darker algae don't give good light penetration, and the roots will die causing the algae to break off. If you look back, people have spent allot of time finding a good lighting combo that will cause only this type to grow. It is the end goal.

As far as aligning to the ocean, that is a misnomer. If you wanted to do that you would have to have an olympic swimming pool sized tank and put one damsel in it. The amount of biomass we put in our tanks is many times higher than that of the ocean.

[Vladec]

Cleaning - and no problems!

If they do not grow algae on the grid (algae scrubber) - that will rise in the aquarium.

For more biomass - cultivate algae in the sump (hetomorfa and Caulerpa)


On the theme of the light spectrum -



P.s. Thanks for the link - SantaMonica - http://akva.by/forum/index.php/topic....html#msg49755

[Brummie]

You don't necessarily get an algae problem in the tank if you happen to keep things that eat it. Also, an algae scrubber is a specific environment to encourage algal growth,. This environment may not be duplicated in the display, hence no algal growth. There's a plethora of reasons why algae may or may not take hold in a tank. Not least, the type of corals and their exudations. I'm 100% convinced that algae scrubbers need a bacterial filtration stage to eliminate unnatural sugar concentrations reaching the coral surface, which if unchecked reduces oxygen levels to the coral tissue.

[driftin]

Originally Posted by Brummie

I'm 100% convinced that algae scrubbers need a bacterial filtration stage to eliminate unnatural sugar concentrations reaching the coral surface, which if unchecked reduces oxygen levels to the coral tissue.

Could you expand on that thought? Do you mean a separate bacterial filtration system of some type?

[herring_fish]

This discussion on diversity really should be over in the advanced thread in my opinion. Never the less it is interesting. Most of what algae takes up and returns to the water column in the ocean is done by phytoplankton. The algae that we try to grow in a scrubber or a refugium makes up a ridiculously small percentage of the total ocean biomass. Of course bacteria and zooplankton should be also considered.

Lighting and other considerations can foster the growth of particular algae that has best adapted, in the past, to those conditions so there is room to play. Never the less, I would think that a basic algae scrubber tends to lean toward a monoculture, once it becomes mature.

As I see it, a scrubber is simply designed to bring down N and P and to help regulate pH. What algae that you try to shoot for is up to you but diversity, as it relates to chemistry and micronutrients in such small systems, are over shadowed by the makers of commercial salt producers.

[Brummie]

Originally Posted by driftin

Could you expand on that thought? Do you mean a separate bacterial filtration system of some type?

There are certain effects on corals due to algal exudates. The primary one is that excessive sugars promote bacterial growth on the coral surface / water interface. This in turn consumes oxygen before it can reach the coral tissue, there is also a case that the unnatural sugar levels encourage pathogenic bacteria. It seems logical that anyone running a scrubber should try and reduce this sugar content by running a seperate bacterial filter. This may entail a simple trickle filter prior to discharge to the display or even one of Floyds scrubbers modified to promote bacterial degradation. The degradation process would probably eliminate carbon usage as the bacteria would consume lots of nasties.

[herring_fish]

Hmmm I have never thought about that one before. It sounds worth exploring. Have you done any research on that idea?

[Brummie]

Yeah, I've been researching for 2 years. Ockhams razor

[salty joe]

Originally Posted by Brummie

I'm 100% convinced that algae scrubbers need a bacterial filtration stage to eliminate unnatural sugar concentrations reaching the coral surface, which if unchecked reduces oxygen levels to the coral tissue.

Why wouldn't the bacteria in the rock do the trick?

[Brummie]

Originally Posted by salty joe

Why wouldn't the bacteria in the rock do the trick?

By the time it's got to the rock, it's already got to the coral surface.

[Vladec]

Originally Posted by salty joe

Why wouldn't the bacteria in the rock do the trick?

I agree completely

I add - and in the sand .

[salty joe]

Originally Posted by Brummie

There are certain effects on corals due to algal exudates. The primary one is that excessive sugars promote bacterial growth on the coral surface / water interface. This in turn consumes oxygen before it can reach the coral tissue, there is also a case that the unnatural sugar levels encourage pathogenic bacteria. It seems logical that anyone running a scrubber should try and reduce this sugar content by running a seperate bacterial filter. This may entail a simple trickle filter prior to discharge to the display or even one of Floyds scrubbers modified to promote bacterial degradation. The degradation process would probably eliminate carbon usage as the bacteria would consume lots of nasties.

That's interesting. Do you think a bunch of dedicated rock or submerged bioballs inline after the scrubber would be a good way to go?

When the bacteria consume nasties, then what? Wouldn't just they get released when the bacteria dies? A skimmer is not part of my plan.

[Brummie]

Originally Posted by salty joe

That's interesting. Do you think a bunch of dedicated rock or submerged bioballs inline after the scrubber would be a good way to go?



When the bacteria consume nasties, then what? Wouldn't just they get released when the bacteria dies? A skimmer is not part of my plan.

Yes. To do any good it would need to be removable so that the bacteria could be cleaned away occasionally.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Well, bacteria grows on all surfaces, and this might include the algae itself. Since the algal may is constantly growing, the bacterial population could expand with the growth. When you clean the screen, you export the bacteria also.

[Vladec]

Bioballs - in my opinion it is just a marketing ploy.

[Brummie]

Encouraging algal surface bacteria may be a problem;

https://www.academia.edu/964483/Micr...raea_annularis

Conclusion
Benthic reef algae have characteristic microbial commu-nities associated with their tissue. Very little is knownabout the role that this diversity plays in reef ecology, but there are likely both positive or facilitative interactions aswell as negative or antagonistic interactions between the microbiota and macrobiota.These microbial assemblages likely contribute to nutrient cycling and gas exchange andsubsequent growth and abundance of corals and algae but may also include several potential pathogens. The specific interactions between algae and the microbialworld have important implications for reef health. As reservoirs of coral pathogens, they have the potential to transmit disease across the reef, and as algae become increasingly abundant on coral reefs around the world, this may create a positive feedback loop whereby themore algae that are present, the greater the potential totransfer pathogens. In addition to their affects on corals,bacteria associated with benthic algae likely play a role in the proliferation of algae by fixing nitrogen, preventing herbivory, and possibly by exclusion of algal pathogens and competing primary producers. Photosynthetic Eukaryotes associated with algae, on the other hand, maybe competing with the host alga for nutrients, light andinorganic carbon. It remains to be seen how changes in environmental conditions such as reduced herbivory,increased eutrophication and elevated sea surface temperature influence the microbial communities associatedwith benthic reef algae and how these changes affect the physiology and success of algae on coral reefs around the world.

[SantaMonica]

Duration: 4 months

Harvests: 13

Location: Saltwater

Lights: 3-watt 660 nm (red) LEDs, 500 ma.

Photoperiod: 18 hours

Air bubble flow: 24 hours

[salty joe]

Originally Posted by Brummie

It seems logical that anyone running a scrubber should try and reduce this sugar content by running a seperate bacterial filter. This may entail a simple trickle filter prior to discharge to the display or even one of Floyds scrubbers modified to promote bacterial degradation.

Do you think any type of submerged filter would work? If so, maybe a couple separate ones to be cleaned alternately.

I ask because I have room for that and don't want to add a skimmer or more pumps or more plumbing etc.

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

Duration: 4 months

Harvests: 13

Interesting that the lower power LEDs outperformed the higher power LEDs in the beginning.

[SantaMonica]

I'm pretty sure it was photoinhibited.