Higher Calcium Level for SPS Growth? (vs Health)

[Wally.B]

I've read all kind of opinions on what proper parameters are for a healthy SPS tank.

Seen quite a range on dieal ALK, but consensus is stable.

However my question is specific to Calcium Level.

My new SPS only, all Frag tank (250W MH, 65GaL) is about a year old. I got over the problem parts, and corals are now all surviving, and growing/encrusting slowly (26 frags). But painfully slowly (even the ones that should grow faster). I Have been keeping Calcium stable at 425ppm.

Is my assumption correct (that I need extra high Calcium level to get these Frags kick started for growth)?.
My thought is that once you have a fully filled in SPS tank, you stay at Natural Sea water levels to keep tank healthy and don't want rapid growth. You switch to work on colors.
However you start with a bunch of 1-2" frags, you go higher on calcium to get them growing, to fill in the tank.

For a healthy SPS tank you should be over 400ppm all the time.

However to get better, faster growth (putting other factors aside like nutrient levels), should I be going higher. Like 450, or even higher like 475-480 (understanding that at higher levels you will get more calcification and will be cleaning pumps impellers, skimmer more often?

What ever is chosen, I assume I should also balance Alk to match. Correct?

[Peter Eichler]

There's really no evidence to suggest that higher calcium levels, over say 380ppm, will do anything to increase growth rates. Balancing alkalinity and calcium doesn't mean much when it comes to growth either. So, if you growth is slow I'd suggest looking for other factors and potential parameter issues.

[Reefvet]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

My thought is that once you have a fully filled in SPS tank, you stay at Natural Sea water levels to keep tank healthy and don't want rapid growth. You switch to work on colors.

However you start with a bunch of 1-2" frags, you go higher on calcium to get them growing, to fill in the tank.
Correct?

Corals don't do math.

Here's a good reference on water chemistry you should read.

[Spslvr]

If you want to raise 1 of the majors you have to raise all of them ie for cal of 450 you need alk at 9 and mag at 1350, if you want cal at 480 you need alk at 9.6 and mag at 1440. you should notice a difference in growth if your other factors are correct. Lighting, flow etc

[Pife]

I think stability and patience are key for sps.

[Wally.B]

I got stability figured out, by adding automation for Temp, Dosing (Calc,Alk). Ph monitoring, which has been only proof that PH range is fine.

Wondering how long my patience has to be to see bigger (Display Tank Type) SPS corals. Another Year? What's typical time from All Frags to Fully filled in SPS tank? 5 years?

Some Frags are one year old, and only slightly bigger (but healthy, polyping and growing. Some pale since I have only 4 fish, so nutrients low.).

I guess growth is exponential, since as they branch out. Each branch grows, so it appears that they are growing faster. Correct?

This is the 11 month old Frag tank. Is this resonable for SPS growth? (Not all frags are 11 months old, since they have been accumulated them over time).
Two corals were bought large, but rest were all small approx. 1" frags.

I do understand, some of the Frags are extra slow growers.

[Bill Nye]

Corals look pale to me. What are you nitrate and phosphate levels at? I would feed more or add more fish.

It seems like they are not encrusting very much. I have always experienced my corals encrusting fairly quickly at first before growing. After 11 months you shouldnt see frag plugs anymore.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by Bill Nye

Corals look pale to me. What are you nitrate and phosphate levels at? I would feed more or add more fish.

It seems like they are not encrusting very much. I have always experienced my corals encrusting fairly quickly at first before growing. After 11 months you shouldnt see frag plugs anymore.

Nitrate (unreadable=0) with Salifert Test kit.
Phosphate (unreadable=0) Hanna Phosphate kit.

All of the actual (8-11) month frags have encrusted the plugs. The exposed plugs, and epoxy is from younger frags, or a recent placement change.

Agree on pale colors. Yes, need more fish and feeding.

However is coral specific feeding and additives and option? I like few fish at this point. (Will feed them more as suggested).

Been extra low feeding the fish, to keep SPS tank algae free. (Have had major Hair Algae, and Cyano problems (due to over feeding) in my other NON SPS tank, so have become Feeding Shy...Gotten so cautious, that I rinse my frozen brine shrimp in net, to minimize adding nitrates).

[swk]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

[B]Nitrate (unreadable=0) with Salifert Test kit.

Phosphate (unreadable=0) Hanna Phosphate kit.

I believe this is your problem.

[Aquattro]

I've seen no difference in growth at 390ppm vs 440ppm. I think 425 is fine. Feed more as suggested. My last tank was also 0/0 for NO3/PO4 and growth was not an issue. The only thing I've manipulated that affected growth, assuming PO4 is not high and inhibiting it, is temp. I get a lot more growth at 79F vs say 77.

[Wally.B]

Originally Posted by swk

I believe this is your problem.

My temp range is 76 - 77.

So is solution?

A1) Raise temp to 78-79 (Can't avoid the swing with MH lights)

A2) Get more fish, and/or Feed Fish more..to Raise Nitrates to proper levels (What is good Level ( >0 but <5ppm?)?

A3) Same as above, plus run RowaPhos Reactor (part time)...To Raise Phosphates to proper levels (What is good Level (>0 but <0.06ppm) ?

OR

B1) Avoid raising NO3/PO4. And just get more fish to add more nutrients to tank ?

Also, I've always wondered if having the Diamond Watch Golby was part of the problem (No Nitrates, or Phosphates).
As you can see in pic, my substrate is sparkling white.
Never cleaned it ever in 11 months, since he cleans and turns over the sand daily.

[Bill Nye]

My phosphates run between undetectable and .02 and my nitrates are undetectable. I typically feed either 2 cubes of mysis/brine/chopped krill a day or 1 cube and a bunch of fish eggs and cyclopeeze in a 50 gallon breeder. I will also feed a small amount of pellets occasionally throughout the day. For sps you want to be putting nutrients in and then aggressively removing.

[Aquattro]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

My temp range is 76 - 77.

So is solution?

A1) Raise temp to 78-79 (Can't avoid the swing with MH lights)

A2) Get more fish, and/or Feed Fish more..to Raise Nitrates to proper levels (What is good Level ( >0 but <5ppm?)?

A3) Same as above, plus run RowaPhos Reactor (part time)...To Raise Phosphates to proper levels (What is good Level (>0 but <0.06ppm) ?

OR

B1) Avoid raising NO3/PO4. And just get more fish to add more nutrients to tank ?

Also, I've always wondered if having the Diamond Watch Golby was part of the problem (No Nitrates, or Phosphates).
As you can see in pic, my substrate is sparkling white.
Never cleaned it ever in 11 months, since he turns over the sand daily.

I would go A1 and B1. Raise temp to address growth, swing is fine, and feed more while aiming for 0ppm on both. Even if you get slightly above 0ppm, fine, but aim there. Adding more fish, feeding heavy and skimming and perhaps larger water changes would, IMO, fix the issues.

[Wally.B]

I just set my Apex to keep Temp between 78 - 79. Also moved the temp probe, half way down (to Coral Level) to avoid picking up Heated surface water temps.

That should warm up the tank.

I'll see if that helps with SPS growth.

[Bill Nye]

I would be careful increasing Temps without increasing nutrients. The faster a coral grows the more nutrients it needs. You can only drive a car for so long at 100 mph when you are on fumes.

[Wally.B]

Dealing with nutrients too. I just picked up a couple of medium Blue/Green Chromis's to add to the single one I already had (mini school will be nice).
They are in quarantine now for a week (Learned the lesson of not quarantining recently in other tank. Total fish wipeout, due to Velvet disease)
.
Small Bio/nutrient increase, but in the right direction.

I also have some Oster Feast, Reef Roids, and Coral Frenzy that I use for my NON SPS tank, with a Two Little Fishes Syringe feeder.
Not at good as fish, but in the meantime (till I get more fish over time) would that help?
(Once a week Target feed?, Just after, or before weekly Water change. [nor sure which is better] ) ?

[brad65ford]

Originally Posted by swk

i believe this is your problem.

+1

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

If you want to raise 1 of the majors you have to raise all of them ie for cal of 450 you need alk at 9 and mag at 1350, if you want cal at 480 you need alk at 9.6 and mag at 1440. you should notice a difference in growth if your other factors are correct. Lighting, flow etc

That's not really true and having "balanced" elements doesn't seem to have much impact on anything.

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

That's not really true and having "balanced" elements doesn't seem to have much impact on anything.

I dunno... its always been my understanding that Mag should be 15X alk and 3X cal.. A technique i utilise at my farm and we can turn out a frag with full tile basing within 6 weeks..

[Wally.B]

I dunno... its always been my understanding that Mag should be 15X alk and 3X cal.. A technique i utilise at my farm and we can turn out a frag with full tile basing within 6 weeks..

What does "15X" Alk and "3X" Cal mean. (the nX part).

I am dosing Randy's A/B formula http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry
so I'm dosing A/B equally, and that is keeping my Alk/Calc levels stable (Minor adjustment needed after Water Changes when I don't buffer up my Salt Mix")

For any Alk/Cal. adjustments I use the Reef Chemistry Calculator http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

[Peter Eichler]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

I dunno... its always been my understanding that Mag should be 15X alk and 3X cal.. A technique i utilise at my farm and we can turn out a frag with full tile basing within 6 weeks..

I haven't seen anything scientific or even anecdotal to support that balanced or elevated levels increase growth. My corals grow alarmingly fast whether magnesium 1200 or 2200 and calcium is 380 or 500ppm, while those parameters have changed a lot throughout the years, alkalinity has remained below 8.5 dKH for some time, and typically below 8.

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by Peter Eichler

I haven't seen anything scientific or even anecdotal to support it. My corals grow alarmingly fast whether magnesium 1200 or 2200 and calcium is 380 or 500ppm, while those parametrs have changed a l;ot throughout the years, alkalinity has remained below 8.5 dKH for some time, and typically below 8.

I am not disputing that... as i said this is just a guide that we utilise here at the farm, anectode or not it does make some sense and is a good starting point...

At the end of the day it cant hurt and may help....

We have played around with all sorts of parameters with alk from nsw levels right up to 14 dkh nd this formula just seems to work best [for us] then again we are using natural sunlight, we also employ electrolysis and add plant fertiliser for nutrients... so really who knows mabe im a fool with no idea what im doing....

[Aquattro]

My tank runs at about 420/Ca, 12dkh/alk and 1100 Mg, no real complaints growing coral. I've also run different numbers than this, still no issues. As I posted earlier, the only thing that's affected growth (that I've observed) is temp. Well, and Ca below 380ish

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by Wally.B

What does "15X" Alk and "3X" Cal mean. (the nX part).

I am dosing Randy's A/B formula http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2004/4/chemistry
so I'm dosing A/B equally, and that is keeping my Alk/Calc levels stable (Minor adjustment needed after Water Changes when I don't buffer up my Salt Mix")

For any Alk/Cal. adjustments I use the Reef Chemistry Calculator http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

Well for instance if you cal is 450 then times that by 3 for your mag ie 450x3= 1350 so you mag should be 1350 the divide your mag by 15 which = 90 so your alk should be 9.0

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by Aquattro

My tank runs at about 420/Ca, 12dkh/alk and 1100 Mg, no real complaints growing coral. I've also run different numbers than this, still no issues. As I posted earlier, the only thing that's affected growth (that I've observed) is temp. Well, and Ca below 380ish

do you find better growth with higher or lower temps?

And im not for 1 minute saying that making your own parameters is bad but if you are having problems its not going to hurt if you use my calculator