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Unread 08/23/2009, 11:18 PM   #426
nes999
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Quote:
Originally posted by bug
I don't know if my questions was already answered, but how would I know if I am affected? I have some "zoo" 's and have been fiddling in my tank without gloves. Man, I am worried now as I have a cut on my hand, maybe more then one. Can symptoms start later or is it immediate.

I am sorry if I am sounding naïve. Gloves at all times from now on. I guess it was pretty stupid of me to go in there bare handed to begin with.

I thought this tank was gonna help relax me. Guess not. lol
within minuets ive got "stung" i knew withing a few min but then again since then ive handle without gloves and no ill affects


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Unread 08/26/2009, 03:49 PM   #427
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gotten stun by my Button Corals and I did feel weird for awhile.


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Unread 09/13/2009, 08:55 PM   #428
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Happened to me! READ!

I posted this on NJRC and it applies to this thread. Learned my lesson!
Hope this helps to spread the word.
POSTS-
While playing with my frags I got some on me, not good. Then fresh water dipping and swooshing around, I got the water on my arms, again not good, no details, but has anyone dealt with this?? Cortizone, nothing is working!
POST-
Quote
If really bad the emergency room.
Not a that stage, but not good.
Quote
It looked like poison ivy and itched like crazy for days.
That describes it but on a higher level or too ,Been a month since the main exposer, very slow healing, like a chemical burn.
Quote
has this happened before? cause you play with lotsa zoos. was it a particular one that caused it?
First Time did not were gloves, not a immediate reaction, but DAMM, after a few days i new I screwed up. Second Time Was splash above the gloves on the arm. Just plain zoos, 12 or do types. They were seceating Mucus, Thats the bad stuff.

Follow up- Finally went to the Doctor, been about 5 weeks, never healed. He knew exactly what it was and how to treat it! Three day into it and I am healing nicely. Heavy oral steroids, 37 tabs of 10MG Prednisone in 9 days and clobetasol ointment, topical, twice a day,(Super High Potency). This is more commonly known as Coral contact dermatitis and Nonhealing pruritic rash.
Note-This cannot be treated at home, neosporin, Cortizone ect. are useless.

http://www.cortlandtforum.com/Nonhea...icle/118799/2/


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Unread 09/22/2009, 01:43 PM   #429
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i see


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Unread 12/05/2009, 02:36 AM   #430
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Scary stuff. I will be much more aware when touching these guys and washing my hands


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Unread 12/16/2009, 04:57 PM   #431
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Wow, I never thought of zoas being dangerous!


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Unread 12/16/2009, 04:59 PM   #432
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I've watched my local LFS handle rocks packed with zoas like they weren't even there. Hundreds of times. I asked him about this, and his response was "I've been handling these for years this way without anything happening."


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Unread 01/26/2010, 02:11 PM   #433
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As a brand new reefer with a couple of zoa "volunteers" on my new liverock, I'm very interested in this topic. I just did a very cursory search of the scientific literature for palytoxin - skimming for information about its origin. Here's what one paper (Ciminiello et al 2009). I've bolded the important parts.

"The level and content of PLTXs in toxic Palythoa spp. have been reported to vary significantly among species, populations of the same species, and even seasonally (2, 13). The assumption that PLTXs are actually produced by bacteria (2, 14) or microalgae presumably existing symbiotically with Palythoa (15) has also been defended. Sporadic occurrence of PLTXs in algae (15), crabs (16a, 16b), and fish (17) alike indicates that microorganisms could represent the real source of these toxins.

Recently, dinoflagellates belonging to the genus Ostreopsis have been proposed to be probable biogenetic originators of PLTXs. This follows from identification of three PLTX analogues from Ostreopsis spp., namely, (1) ostreocin-D from Ostreopsis siamensis (18), (2) mascarenotoxins from Ostreopsis mascarenensis (19), and (3) ovatoxin-a from Ostreopsis ovata (20)."

It sounds like this whole scenario might be very similar to tetrodotoxins in poison dart frogs. In the natural environment, conditions are right for the organisms to acquire these toxins but in captivity they rapidly lose any toxicity. You have to have Ostreopsis dinoflagellates to have toxic Palythoas. That said...I did find a couple of clinical cases of relatively rock solid poisonings, but almost always from eating fish. Here is one bona fide case from captive coral:

Hoffmann et al 2008 "A case of human poisoning by palytoxin after contact with zoanthid corals (Parazoanthus sp.) in an aquarium through skin injuries on fingers is reported. The clinical symptoms include swelling, paraesthesia and numbness around the site of the injury spreading over the arm, but also signs of systemic poisoning such as dizziness, general weakness and myalgia, irregularities in the ECG and indications of rhabdomyolysis. Symptomatic treatment consisted of infusion of physiological fluids. The patient recovered within 3 days. Analysis of the zoanthid coral involved revealed extremely high concentrations of palytoxin (between 2 and 3 mg/g)."

I won't draw any conclusions, but just wanted people to have something besides anecdotal evidence.


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Unread 02/10/2010, 09:49 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by luvtolean View Post
Err...try again. Mechanics have abnormally high levels of cancer in their trade. Most long term mechanics I know of, die of cancer. Even the ones that don't drink or smoke.


I had no idea these guys were toxic. I always wash my hands after working around the tank, but this is good info. Sure, reefers may not drop like flies, but it's not a bad idea to take preventitive measures.

The daddy long leg spider also has a very potent toxin, but it's not able to deliver it to humans, only its prey. I'm guessing however a Zoo is set up to utilize the toxin, means it normally can't hurt a human.
Errr try again?? 99% of the mechanics i know are alcoholics and smoke like chimneys, most mechanics dont get paid squat and have a certain "lifestyle" that just comes with low paying jobs in the trade, do you think they get cancer from having greasy hands? Seriously?


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Unread 02/10/2010, 09:54 PM   #435
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soon you will see guys in space suits while fraggin zoo's.....


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Unread 06/14/2010, 06:56 PM   #436
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An ounce of prevention is what...?


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Unread 06/23/2010, 06:23 AM   #437
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WhiteBird, sounds like you just got reef rash. Surfers get it all the time.

If anyone actually had any level of exposure to PLTX they would be dead within minutes. You can get a bacterial infection in many different ways, many types of marine life being one of them. Im doubting that any of the P's in this hobby actually contain PLTX, not saying it doesn't exist, just that it has been grossly hyped.


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Unread 06/24/2010, 11:49 PM   #438
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Well, some are in dis belief, well something hit me hard. For notes, I was dipping est. 200 Assorted Zoo and Paly frags in water that I did not know was acidic.
Major slime. Last September I believe. Well 2 MDs and 2 dermatologists later, well, not healed, gets bad, gets not so bad.
Any Experts on here that have any suggestions I would appreciate the advice.
The ones who doubt, well, keep on playing with them!! But do not advise others to do the same.
Never posted a pic before, right hand, cream on it, finger tips cracking, took it 5 min ago, this is , this is 9 month later!!



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Unread 06/25/2010, 12:08 AM   #439
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I won't draw any conclusions, but just wanted people to have something besides anecdotal evidence
One of my favs, did the home work.
DID I MENTION IT HURTS LIKE H@LL!
just scaring the noobs!


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Unread 06/26/2010, 05:06 AM   #440
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Originally Posted by Whitebird1 View Post
Last September I believe. Well 2 MDs and 2 dermatologists later, well, not healed, gets bad, gets not so bad.
Did any of those docs consider and test for Mycobacterium marinum, aka fish turburculosis? That would be consistent with the long term infection.


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Unread 06/26/2010, 10:36 PM   #441
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wait whaaaat! zoanthids, the common non-stony coral that comes in so many awesome colors, can kill you?? 0-0 i dont understand, can it only hurt you through an open wound (or open mouth ) and are ALL of them like this??


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Unread 06/28/2010, 11:40 PM   #442
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Bill you may have nailed it, seeing the MD in the am!
All zoos have the potential to be harmful, some much more than others. Coral rash, toxins, bacteria, Poison spines on fish Ect, is what I have been learning about!! Perhaps 90+ % of what we keep in our tanks are harmless, but a few really pack a potent punch.
A NEW STICKY THREAD ON HAZARDS IN OUR HOBBY may be a good idea.
I started work on this and it may be a bit off topic, but, seems nowhere else yet to post it, its long and only a part of what I have found, but can be interesting reading.
GregH


Protists/Single Celled Organisms
Algae as a whole produces what are termed phycotoxins. Dinoflagellates are single celled, flagellated algae that have a wide range of toxic outcomes and a wide range of life stages, some of which are toxic, some of which are not.

Cyanobacteria are also known to produce toxins. Lyngbya sp. These cyanobacters produce ypaoamide Toxin.
In relation to human relevance, if a bloom occurs and an aquarist is exposed to aerosol or in contact with the water, it can cause adverse reactions. An example occurred in a lab at NC State University in which lab technicians were severely affected neurologically when dealing with a Pfiesteria culture. Most environmental, algal based intoxications occur as a result of consumption of fish or shellfish or contact with aerosol near the ocean. Shellfish poisonings, thought to have an algal etiology, include paralytic shellfish poisoning (saxitoxin), amnesic shellfish poisoning (domoic acid), diarrheic shellfish poisoning (okadaic acid), and erythematous (internal bleeding) shellfish poisoning.

Porifera/Sponges
The rapid development of the pharmaceutical market has brought about a bloom of information regarding various toxins native to the sponges. Evidence that sponges contain many toxins is easily noted by empirical observation in that algal overgrowth is rarely seen and predation rates are low. Each sponge may produce a host of different compounds that are in some way toxic.
Coelenterates/Cnidarians
This group of animals is of greatest interest to most reef aquarists. Included are the hydroids, jellyfish, anemones and corals. Most members of this group, however, are innocuous to humans, although most contain nematocysts (figure A) which can cause dermatitis in sensitive individuals. Many have felt the not-so-gentle caress of a fire coral! There are approximately 40 species known to be dangerous to people. A great many more are likely dangerous to tank inhabitants. This is especially important when mixing animals from different regions in a single aquarium. An Atlantic Condylactis anemone, for example, has a very powerful sting and readily consumes many Indo-Pacific fish on first contact.
The true corals are only recently coming under more scrutiny as far as their toxic components, although as with all cnidarians, they appear to have both peptide and chemical toxins. The toxins, however, are very more difficult to extract in quantities relevant for research due to low amounts of soft tissue on most scleractinian corals. Incidences of coral envenomation can result in ulcer development and become exceedingly painful, even so severe that it becomes disabling to the individual, although recovery usually occurs. This is something to consider regarding tank maintenance
Treatment for stings (in humans) is based mainly on effects. However, the common misconception of urinating on stings is false and increases nematocyst discharge making symptoms worse. Vinegar and meat tenderizer work well by breaking down the proteins involved. Hydrogen peroxide is highly suggested to debride coral wounds and prevent secondary infection after exposure, both at home and at the beach.
Treatment of tank occupants is not really an option as the amount of venom injected on a comparative scale is high and handling of fish is usually more detrimental than helpful. Mild stings to fish are usually of little concern, but some anemones have a powerful enough sting to paralyze fish. This is especially a concern as regards species that rest on the substrate such as gobies, blennies, and hawkfish.
Echinoderms
This group includes the sea stars, brittle stars, urchins, and cucumbers and contains some 5,300 species. The brittle stars and sea stars are generally not known to be toxic, with the one exception, the Crown of Thorns (Acanthaster planci) star
The urchins are more commonly venomous and have one of two types of venom apparatus: spines (many tipped by venom glands, such as with Diadema) or pedicellariae, which are located internal to the spines and have a form of jaw- or scissor-like pincers. Intoxication by urchins is most commonly from stings
Cucumbers, or holothurians, produce a generic toxin named holothurin or holotoxin. Most cucumbers store this toxin in the Organs of Cuvier, which means that envenomation is not a concern. Intoxication by cucumbers occurs via contact with ejected liquid (known to cause blindness or dermatitis) or from ingestion. The discovery of holotoxin was made in 1929 by a Japanese scientist named Yamanouchi. He noted that fish placed into tanks with cucumber tissue extracts died within minutes. The toxin is mainly in the body wall and causes loss of motor control (coordination and reflexes) which can end in paralysis. . Twenty four of 27 Indo-Pacific species tested were toxic. . The four “worst” species are: H. axiologa, H. atra, S. variegates, and T. ananas. The toxin affects fish by entering via the gills. Cucumbers also release toxins under stressful conditions, such as when physical trauma occurs
Mollusks
Snails, bivalves (clams) and octopi make up this family of organisms. Bivalves are typically not directly toxic but serve as major vectors for algal based toxins, such as ciguatera, and the various effectors of shellfish poisoning. Callistin and venerupin poisonings from their consumption are common. The two species reported to be toxic in and of themselves are Tridacna gigas and maxima, but these also may be due to accumulation of toxins from an algal diet as well, as no toxin has been isolated and identified.
The snails and slugs have a few members who are both venomous and poisonous. Whelks, for example Cone snails are the most deadly of the mollusks Most human intoxications are a result of handling these pretty shells while the animal within is still alive and getting stung as a result. The effect in vertebrate animals is severe paralysis usually leading to asphyxiation. Accidental introduction of this genus to a home aquarium would be very dangerous
Nudibranchs, or sea slugs, have a few defensive toxins. Some isolated toxins from nudibranchs mirror those common to the corals. Terpenes and nerve interruptive compounds have been found in a few sea slug species in the eggs and skin. The most common form of defense is not native to the nudibranchs, but rather involves capturing nematocysts from other stinging organisms that they consume as prey and using these nematocysts by storing them in cnidosacs for future use. Some, however, do secrete toxins called crinotoxins, although they are no real threat to a tank or to humans in small quantity. The purified toxin is very mild.
The octopuses have a toxin as well. Most bites from octopuses are very mild and only cause a burning/itching sensation in the limb, although severe cases have been reported that include ‘severe feeling of detachment and paralysis’. The most venomous of the group are H. lunulata, O. macropus, and O. vulgaris. The Blue Ring Octopus (Hapalochlaena lunulata) appears in the trade on occasion and should be respected and only attempted by advanced aquarists with the proper tank setup and understanding.
Worms
Platyhelminthes is the only class of flatworms worth noting as being poisonous. The Turbellaria family are free living types that have a chemical defense system to ward off predation
Annelids or segmented worms are those we all know well. The ‘bristle worms’ as the most common marine annelids in reef tanks are described, typically only cause irritation due to setae stings. The setae are hollow and possibly filled with mild venom. The toxin is generally just a dermal irritant to humans.

Bryozoans
Upon contact with skin, Bryozoans or Moss Animals, can cause a fairly severe dermatitis and burning sensation, although the toxin and the mechanism of action are both unknown for these colonial animals. These are found in temperate and tropical environments worldwide.


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Unread 05/13/2013, 07:43 AM   #443
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tragedy about the dog... truly.

however.. my own story to share...

I just recently got into the hobby via influence from a friend who is experienced in reef tanks. I bought some live rock which had a few hitchhiker zoanthids on it. I didn't know about the relative toxicity, and while placing the rock, one of them fell off into my hand. I scooped it up and felt a tiny pinch in my hand. Didn't think anything of it... washed it down the drain - goodbye sweet coral!

3 hours later...

Starting feeling scratchy throat issue - started to think I was getting sick. Went to bed. Couldn't sleep all night.

Finally got some rest as morning approached, alarm went off at 6:20 to get up for work... tried to get up - whole body sore from head to toe - problems breathing like I had asthma issues. Called out of work thinking I was getting the flu...

8:30ish, phoned a friend... could barely talk was so short of breath.

Mid day - starting having chills, pain still in all my muscles etc... was thinking this was flu or pneumonia.

Later in the evening after making a run to the store to try and get fresh air... was feeling a little better, but still had breathing issues and total body soreness.

48 hours later... most of the symptoms subsided, but I still am having some phlegm residual from my body fighting off the toxin. Even today, 5 days later... still a little phlegm leftover. It was a not a good experience. Worse still... my friend could have warned me but didn't. Lesson learned - gloves on when dealing with the tank! ugh


just be sure you read up on things and wear gloves and take extra precautions. Thankful I came across this thread cause I would have never put two and two together!


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Unread 11/01/2014, 06:34 PM   #444
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Clearly I need to be more carful when fragging my palys, this is scary


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Unread 11/01/2014, 07:05 PM   #445
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Toxins

Ok i will make this short, bad story, I am Manasquanfrags jersey Shore, moved a lot of stock, grew out some paly morphs, nice big grew them out for a year Florida stock, started to frag, diamond band saw, winter, closed up house heat on, Toxins went airborne, within minutes I knew I was hit, like a combo bad as-ma attack and allergic attack, chills, sweating, nausea, throat pain. 2 Doctors later, antihistamines, 2 strong antibiotics, and chemo drugs to calm my immune response, 7 weeks till i started to come out of it. Have not gone into the bushiness again. This no joke, learn before you cut.


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Unread 11/02/2014, 10:27 PM   #446
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yep I've been telling people for a long time now to you PPE ( Protective Personal Equipment ) is a must use. IE' gloves, mask, eye protection, if your sticking your arms in the tank a lot use, those arm length glove.


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Unread 02/09/2015, 05:04 PM   #447
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Make sure you were gloves folks, the inside of my fingers are all red and intensified itching due to dipping multiple colonies of zoanthids in melafix and then fragging various corals with the bandsaw. Slime got on my hands and i've never really had a problem for the past few months, but now the lesson is learned. Any sort of movement with my hands causes a burning itchy sensation. I'll keep everyone posted on what happens. I have soaked my hands in vinegar, gonna take a benadryl.


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Unread 02/09/2015, 05:15 PM   #448
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Just a little more detail as to what I'm feeling... The moment freshwater from the bandsaw hit my fingers, my hands quickly began to itch. Im assuming its whatever releasing the toxin onto my skin. Idk what coral caused it becaused I touched probably 30 different kinds of corals. I got a bottle of vinegar and dunked my hands in. Helped a little. If I dont move my hands, it stops itching. If i continue to move or clench my fists, it begins to itch again.


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Unread 02/11/2015, 05:39 PM   #449
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the burning and itchiness has receded, but the redness is still there in between my fingers and its blotched. I believe I am allergic to whatever Euphilia gives off when it comes into contact with the freshwater splashing with the bandsaw. Just a guess but i wear gloves now.


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Unread 02/11/2015, 10:49 PM   #450
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Freshwater?


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