Potentially dumb skimmer question.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 07:16 AM

I have an ASM G3 protien skimmer on a 93 gal heavy bioload tank. The skimmer is rated for 300g and has a large (about 3 cups) collection cup. I do carbon dose and have the stand pipe all the way up to try to get a wet skimmate which is what was recommended to me for carbon dosing. My dumb question is... Should I be concerned that I only get 1/2 cup of dark thick crud per week? Testing reveals around 1ppm Nitrate and 0.04 phosphate. No matter what I cant skim wet. The skimmer wont do it. And when I read all the posts about skimming I hear of people dumping several cups of dark skimmate per week. I guess I thought with carbon dosing, feeding 2x/day and having 11 fish in the tank I would be getting more junk.
I know it seems like I'm over thinking it, and you may say with how the tank is testing don't worry but the tank is not the picture of health. Because of the test results I've neglected WC's to the tune of none in over 6 months. Lazy I know, but numbers were good, dosing CA and ALK automatically and using the coral colors supplements from red sea. I thought if it tests ok, then it must be ok. Not so, the corals are receding, polyp extension sucks, clams not opening, ect, ect. So past 2 weeks I have done a large 50% WC and then 30% WC. I am looking at everything and wondering if skimmer performance may be a contributing force behind my failures. My inclination though is that the skimmers fine, I'm the one at fault with no WC's
Thanks
Dave

usingthejohn · 07/31/2014, 07:26 AM

My only guess is if you aren't getting enough foam and your numbers are normal, the skimmer may be oversized for the tank.

As for testing, what kit did you use? I recently went through an episode with fading and/or receding corals only to find out my nitrates were very high.

usingthejohn · 07/31/2014, 07:27 AM

uploadfromtaptalk1406813229514.jpg

As for skimmate this is what my skimmer produced within 3 days.

It was on here I learned the value of appropriately sized skimmers.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 07:56 AM

I use the RedSea test kits and have taken a water sample to the LFS which uses Hanna's and they got even lower numbers then I do. I would get that much skimmate in about 3 weeks not 3 days, same color though. Do you suggest replacing the skimmer? or am I just trying to divert the blame off myself? What would you recommend as a replacement? I was told carbon dosing needs large skimmers, Is this wrong?

sirreal63 · 07/31/2014, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

I know it seems like I'm over thinking it, and you may say with how the tank is testing don't worry but the tank is not the picture of health. Because of the test results I've neglected WC's to the tune of none in over 6 months. Lazy I know, but numbers were good, dosing CA and ALK automatically and using the coral colors supplements from red sea. I thought if it tests ok, then it must be ok. My inclination though is that the skimmers fine, I'm the one at fault with no WC's
Thanks
Dave

Dave, I would not worry too much about the skim being wet. Yes the G3 is a little large for your tank but your tank's issues are not skimmer related. The G3 is a better fit for a tank twice your size. I ran mine for years on a heavily stocked 125 and it did a great job, but I knew it was still too much for the tank.

The lack of water changes has a greater chance of being the issue here. You may think that the water is fine because your test kits say it is, but your test kits do not test for all of the things that can build up in toxicity. You are adding a lot of different things every time you feed, things that your skimmer may not remove, like heavy metals, which are in the food you feed.

Start doing water changes, and I would do a few decent sized ones to start, like 25% of your TWV every other week. Water is to corals as air is to humans, you may survive in a polluted atmosphere but your health may not be as good as if you were breathing in cleaner air.

If the corals are pale in color then back off the carbon dosing a little and let the no3 get up to around 5, for me this is the sweet spot for nitrate in my tank.

usingthejohn · 07/31/2014, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

I use the RedSea test kits and have taken a water sample to the LFS which uses Hanna's and they got even lower numbers then I do. I would get that much skimmate in about 3 weeks not 3 days, same color though. Do you suggest replacing the skimmer? or am I just trying to divert the blame off myself? What would you recommend as a replacement? I was told carbon dosing needs large skimmers, Is this wrong?

Oops I missed the carbon dosing. What corals do you have? Sps? Lps?

Agaon I'm not a veteran. However I believe lps, softies and clams need some nitrates and phosphate in the water column. If you're predominantly those within you tank, then those pieces may be starving.

Again I'm not a veteran reef keeper. I'm just recalling what I've read

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 08:29 AM

Its a mixed reef, SPS, LPS, softies, zoa's, shrooms, and clams. Obviosly the SPS and LPS and clams are suffering the most.
And Jack, WC's have been the order of the day since last week. I have done 2 large ones and after reading Randy Holmes-Farley's article on WC's I think I will start doing daily WC's I just don't know when I should make the switch.
Thanks
Dave

sirreal63 · 07/31/2014, 08:32 AM

When you say the tank doesn't look good, in what way? Are they getting pale in color or something else?

usingthejohn · 07/31/2014, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

Its a mixed reef, SPS, LPS, softies, zoa's, shrooms, and clams. Obviosly the SPS and LPS and clams are suffering the most.
And Jack, WC's have been the order of the day since last week. I have done 2 large ones and after reading Randy Holmes-Farley's article on WC's I think I will start doing daily WC's I just don't know when I should make the switch.
Thanks
Dave

I had my nitrates at 80 last week. My total volume is about 160g. I did 50g one day: 50g 2 days later, and another 25g 2 days after that. Once I got my levels where I wanted them, I started weekly wcs. Most important is to dilute any high levels, so they don't cause further harm. Once that's done Continue with weekly WCs to further dilute and eventually remove those toxins.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 09:43 AM

Jack, tissue recession in LPS and acro's from base to tip. loss of color in cap coral. clam not opening fully. sinulara not expanding (1/2 the size as usual) several zoas not opening, toadstool polyps barely extendiing. and absolutely no growth over the past 3 months where things have been growing before then (clam from 1.5" to almost2", toadstool added 1-2" to diameter, blastomosa added about 15 colonies since purchase and was averading a few zoas and shroms spliting per month) I've played with my radion to try different lighting parameters, it dosn't seem to be the issue.

usingthejohn · 07/31/2014, 09:58 AM

I want to say it is likely a water quality issue based on what you describe.

Whatever it may be I do hope you resolve it soon. I know how frustrating it is to see your corals not doing well.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 11:23 AM

so the consensus is stick with the skimmer even though its not producing much? more likely water quality issues not associated with skimming?

rounder45 · 07/31/2014, 02:32 PM

I'd be interested to see what your skimmer looks like while running. To see the bubble and water column.I have a same size skimmer on my 90 and I get plenty of skimmate. How deep is the skimmer in the sump? Sounds like you may have a pump issue or surfactant in the water shutting down foam production. I'm guessing the skimmer pump is not get regular vinegar baths every few months.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 02:57 PM

Rounder, It got a vinegar bath on May 7th according to my records. It has performed this way since day 1 and it is only about 9 months old. Same age as this system. My sump is a 20 gal oceanic reef ready sump with the Water level at the top of the bubble baffle which is about 8" deep. The LFS agrees that it is a small amount of skimmate but I also don't have bad nitrates so they think that there is "nothing to skim." Do you think I got a bad model? as far as a surfactant, wouldn't that make it skim more? I couldn't imagine what would be getting in the tank.

billdogg · 07/31/2014, 03:00 PM

I vote for more water changes as well. I use a ASM G2 on my 120 and get about 2" of glop in the skimmer cup every few days. You may want to consider doing the gate valve mod on yours - it is a quick, easy, and reversible mod to help you better contro water/bubble height. I don't have the link handy - I'm at work - just googe asm gate valve mod for more info.

sirreal63 · 07/31/2014, 04:23 PM

It sounds more like a nutrition issue than a skimmer issue. If you haven't already, verify the nitrate number, make sure the carbon is fresh and use the appropriate amount and feed more. With the description of the issues, it has been my experience that the corals are either hungry, starved or there is an influence such at poisoning, though I would tend to think nutrition first. Remember when you are feeding the tank, you are feeding zooxanthellae as well as the corals, it needs nutrition too. Having low nutrient (no3 and po4) works as long as the corals are getting enough nutrition, low nutrient levels and inadequate nutrition leads to sickly corals that are on their way out.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 04:53 PM

I feed zooplex, phytoplex and cyclops 3-4x/week, what else should I use?

sirreal63 · 07/31/2014, 04:54 PM

What do you feed the fish and corals?

rounder45 · 07/31/2014, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reefer PT

Rounder, It got a vinegar bath on May 7th according to my records. It has performed this way since day 1 and it is only about 9 months old. Same age as this system. My sump is a 20 gal oceanic reef ready sump with the Water level at the top of the bubble baffle which is about 8" deep. The LFS agrees that it is a small amount of skimmate but I also don't have bad nitrates so they think that there is "nothing to skim." Do you think I got a bad model? as far as a surfactant, wouldn't that make it skim more? I couldn't imagine what would be getting in the tank.

My thoughts are if you have the pipe all the way up, why isn't it overflowing? How much of a bubble column do you have? As far a surfactant goes, I'm thinking oils of some kind, maybe I used the wrong term. Oh, did you modify the skimmer to have the biopellet reactor feed into the venturi? I think this skimmer should be performing. I have probably half your biolosd and no carbon dosing any my cup needs emptying every three days. My skimmer is a reef dynamics ins135 and the g3 is its equvalent in size/pump I don't think necessarily the skimmer is to blame overall for the tanks health, but, something is not right.coincidentally someone in Another thread is not getting skimmate out of his good quality sized appropriate skimmer and he is using biopellets also. Could be something to that.

Reefer PT · 07/31/2014, 08:19 PM

No biopellets. And the stand pipe only goes up to just above the skimmer body. I am looking at the gate valve mod to force the column up a bit higher and see what that does. Also as suggested I'm going to try to feed more, and more variety as well. Any other suggestions are welcomed.
Thanks again

rounder45 · 07/31/2014, 08:36 PM

Raise the sump level if you can. This will raise skimmer level and hopefully you could skim more wet. Reduce carbon dosing as your livestock need more food.

tonymission · 07/31/2014, 08:49 PM

What's hour alk at? Any big swings there?

Reefer PT · 08/01/2014, 05:45 AM

Alk is 9.2 by way of ESV 2 part dosed through an apex controller

naterealbig · 08/01/2014, 06:16 AM

ReeferPT: First and foremost, I want to tell you it is refreshing to hear a post from someone who is open to constructive feedback, and welcome to the hobby if you are new. Take what sirreal is saying to heart, he is very helpful, knowledgeable, and is a true reefing veteran. His feedback is invaluable, and that is where I would start. Something you may want to take a look at after you stabilize your water change regimen, and nutrient import issues, is the programming of your radion. I have seen some gorgeous Radion tanks and some not so hot. LEDs can be tricky, and if your programming is off, it may be a contributing factor. Hth, and good luck with the tank.

Reefer PT · 08/01/2014, 11:43 AM

Thanks, I wish Ecotech would have a bit more instruction and programs based on some controlled parameters such as depth of illumination. I have scaled back the light but am doing so slowly to prevent shocking anything. Any programming assistance would be welcome.

07/31/2014, 07:16 AM	#1
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	Potentially dumb skimmer question. I have an ASM G3 protien skimmer on a 93 gal heavy bioload tank. The skimmer is rated for 300g and has a large (about 3 cups) collection cup. I do carbon dose and have the stand pipe all the way up to try to get a wet skimmate which is what was recommended to me for carbon dosing. My dumb question is... Should I be concerned that I only get 1/2 cup of dark thick crud per week? Testing reveals around 1ppm Nitrate and 0.04 phosphate. No matter what I cant skim wet. The skimmer wont do it. And when I read all the posts about skimming I hear of people dumping several cups of dark skimmate per week. I guess I thought with carbon dosing, feeding 2x/day and having 11 fish in the tank I would be getting more junk. I know it seems like I'm over thinking it, and you may say with how the tank is testing don't worry but the tank is not the picture of health. Because of the test results I've neglected WC's to the tune of none in over 6 months. Lazy I know, but numbers were good, dosing CA and ALK automatically and using the coral colors supplements from red sea. I thought if it tests ok, then it must be ok. Not so, the corals are receding, polyp extension sucks, clams not opening, ect, ect. So past 2 weeks I have done a large 50% WC and then 30% WC. I am looking at everything and wondering if skimmer performance may be a contributing force behind my failures. My inclination though is that the skimmers fine, I'm the one at fault with no WC's Thanks Dave

07/31/2014, 08:32 AM	#8
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	When you say the tank doesn't look good, in what way? Are they getting pale in color or something else? __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/31/2014, 02:32 PM	#13
rounder45 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 301	I'd be interested to see what your skimmer looks like while running. To see the bubble and water column.I have a same size skimmer on my 90 and I get plenty of skimmate. How deep is the skimmer in the sump? Sounds like you may have a pump issue or surfactant in the water shutting down foam production. I'm guessing the skimmer pump is not get regular vinegar baths every few months. Last edited by rounder45; 07/31/2014 at 02:47 PM.

07/31/2014, 03:00 PM	#15
billdogg Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Grove City, Ohio Posts: 10,806	I vote for more water changes as well. I use a ASM G2 on my 120 and get about 2" of glop in the skimmer cup every few days. You may want to consider doing the gate valve mod on yours - it is a quick, easy, and reversible mod to help you better contro water/bubble height. I don't have the link handy - I'm at work - just googe asm gate valve mod for more info. __________________ I'll try to be nice if you try to be smarter! I can't help that I grow older, but you can't make me grow up! Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef with 40b sump, RO 150 skimmer, AI Sol Blue x 2, and a 60g Frag Tank with 100g rubbermaid sump. 2 x Kessil A360w lights, BM curve 5 skimmer

07/31/2014, 04:23 PM	#16
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	It sounds more like a nutrition issue than a skimmer issue. If you haven't already, verify the nitrate number, make sure the carbon is fresh and use the appropriate amount and feed more. With the description of the issues, it has been my experience that the corals are either hungry, starved or there is an influence such at poisoning, though I would tend to think nutrition first. Remember when you are feeding the tank, you are feeding zooxanthellae as well as the corals, it needs nutrition too. Having low nutrient (no3 and po4) works as long as the corals are getting enough nutrition, low nutrient levels and inadequate nutrition leads to sickly corals that are on their way out. __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/31/2014, 07:26 AM	#2
usingthejohn Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Buena Park, CA Posts: 489	My only guess is if you aren't getting enough foam and your numbers are normal, the skimmer may be oversized for the tank. As for testing, what kit did you use? I recently went through an episode with fading and/or receding corals only to find out my nitrates were very high.

07/31/2014, 07:27 AM	#3
usingthejohn Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Buena Park, CA Posts: 489	uploadfromtaptalk1406813229514.jpg As for skimmate this is what my skimmer produced within 3 days. It was on here I learned the value of appropriately sized skimmers.

07/31/2014, 07:56 AM	#4
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	I use the RedSea test kits and have taken a water sample to the LFS which uses Hanna's and they got even lower numbers then I do. I would get that much skimmate in about 3 weeks not 3 days, same color though. Do you suggest replacing the skimmer? or am I just trying to divert the blame off myself? What would you recommend as a replacement? I was told carbon dosing needs large skimmers, Is this wrong?

07/31/2014, 08:29 AM	#7
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	Its a mixed reef, SPS, LPS, softies, zoa's, shrooms, and clams. Obviosly the SPS and LPS and clams are suffering the most. And Jack, WC's have been the order of the day since last week. I have done 2 large ones and after reading Randy Holmes-Farley's article on WC's I think I will start doing daily WC's I just don't know when I should make the switch. Thanks Dave

07/31/2014, 09:43 AM	#10
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	Jack, tissue recession in LPS and acro's from base to tip. loss of color in cap coral. clam not opening fully. sinulara not expanding (1/2 the size as usual) several zoas not opening, toadstool polyps barely extendiing. and absolutely no growth over the past 3 months where things have been growing before then (clam from 1.5" to almost2", toadstool added 1-2" to diameter, blastomosa added about 15 colonies since purchase and was averading a few zoas and shroms spliting per month) I've played with my radion to try different lighting parameters, it dosn't seem to be the issue.

07/31/2014, 09:58 AM	#11
usingthejohn Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Buena Park, CA Posts: 489	I want to say it is likely a water quality issue based on what you describe. Whatever it may be I do hope you resolve it soon. I know how frustrating it is to see your corals not doing well.

07/31/2014, 11:23 AM	#12
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	so the consensus is stick with the skimmer even though its not producing much? more likely water quality issues not associated with skimming?

07/31/2014, 02:57 PM	#14
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	Rounder, It got a vinegar bath on May 7th according to my records. It has performed this way since day 1 and it is only about 9 months old. Same age as this system. My sump is a 20 gal oceanic reef ready sump with the Water level at the top of the bubble baffle which is about 8" deep. The LFS agrees that it is a small amount of skimmate but I also don't have bad nitrates so they think that there is "nothing to skim." Do you think I got a bad model? as far as a surfactant, wouldn't that make it skim more? I couldn't imagine what would be getting in the tank.

07/31/2014, 04:53 PM	#17
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	I feed zooplex, phytoplex and cyclops 3-4x/week, what else should I use?

07/31/2014, 04:54 PM	#18
sirreal63 Go Spurs Go!!! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Meadowlakes Texas Posts: 13,357	What do you feed the fish and corals? __________________ Jack No One has ever been seriously injured by using the search function. Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be a convenience store, not a government agency. Current Tank Info: Reefing the Pentagon.

07/31/2014, 08:19 PM	#20
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	No biopellets. And the stand pipe only goes up to just above the skimmer body. I am looking at the gate valve mod to force the column up a bit higher and see what that does. Also as suggested I'm going to try to feed more, and more variety as well. Any other suggestions are welcomed. Thanks again

07/31/2014, 08:36 PM	#21
rounder45 Moved On Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 301	Raise the sump level if you can. This will raise skimmer level and hopefully you could skim more wet. Reduce carbon dosing as your livestock need more food. Last edited by rounder45; 07/31/2014 at 08:42 PM.

07/31/2014, 08:49 PM	#22
tonymission Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 143	What's hour alk at? Any big swings there?

08/01/2014, 05:45 AM	#23
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	Alk is 9.2 by way of ESV 2 part dosed through an apex controller

08/01/2014, 06:16 AM	#24
naterealbig Premium Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 2,252	ReeferPT: First and foremost, I want to tell you it is refreshing to hear a post from someone who is open to constructive feedback, and welcome to the hobby if you are new. Take what sirreal is saying to heart, he is very helpful, knowledgeable, and is a true reefing veteran. His feedback is invaluable, and that is where I would start. Something you may want to take a look at after you stabilize your water change regimen, and nutrient import issues, is the programming of your radion. I have seen some gorgeous Radion tanks and some not so hot. LEDs can be tricky, and if your programming is off, it may be a contributing factor. Hth, and good luck with the tank. __________________ My skimmate has notes of saffron, and a hint of lilac.

08/01/2014, 11:43 AM	#25
Reefer PT Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: East Aurora, NY Posts: 352	Thanks, I wish Ecotech would have a bit more instruction and programs based on some controlled parameters such as depth of illumination. I have scaled back the light but am doing so slowly to prevent shocking anything. Any programming assistance would be welcome.