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06/08/2007, 10:26 AM | #101 |
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Rovert-
So lets just say for sake of the argument that both reactor and 2 part methods require the same amount of prep work and tweaking. That said, I have seen more instances of the reactor going haywire and wrecking the tank than the 2 parts solution. Part of that is due to the perceived notion that a reactor setup is more reliable and stable providing the user with a false sense of security. The more parts and more complexity you have in the mix, the more likely it will fail and that's the truth. An automated 2 parts method there is only the peristaltic pump to contend with while the Ca reactor have many different pieces of equipment and components which can at any time crap out on you. With 2 parts if the pump goes out, you can dose manually until you get a replacement pump. The only time I have seen a peristaltic pump go out it stopped dosing altogether. Remember most automated 2 parts systems are only ran for a certain amount of time versus the 24/7 of the cal reactor. With reactor, if your equipment failed, it may put out too much CO2 which could wreck your system with huge Alk swings. It also maybe weeks before you can replace that failed part(s) in your reactor. A typical reactor being run constantly 24/7 leaves a lot to chance IMO -- too much so. But like I said before though, dosing 2 parts may become a real PITA if you are dealing with larger systems (300g and larger) as I can see mixing gallons and gallons of the 2 parts per week getting old rather quickly. Not saying that there is no place for having a ca reactor. But you would be sadly mistaken if you think that having one would make your maintenance routine easier and your tank more stable. Just my 2 cents. |
06/08/2007, 11:01 AM | #102 | |
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06/08/2007, 11:07 AM | #103 | |
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However, risk doesn't mean actualization. One of the reasons that better reactors are using Eheim pumps is their reliability. Though I hope I'm not going to be the test case. One of the reasons I like the Korallin design is that if something does go wrong where the pump fails, the reactor disables itself. That's a plus for this design. There are many merits for a 2 part system, I'll grant you. But I keep getting back to the reactor having some unique benefits that are attractive for many scenarios.
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06/08/2007, 11:11 AM | #104 |
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Rovert, peristaltic pumps are designed with the operating condition that if they fail, someone dies.
Theyre magnitudes less likely to fail than any one of the components in a calcium reactor setup
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06/08/2007, 11:14 AM | #105 |
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Yeah but Rovert. You wouldn't be running the peristaltic pump 24/7 like you would a reactor. A failed peristaltic pump running for 1 or 2 hours is very unlikely to crash your tank when compared to a failed reactor pumping huge amount of CO2 24/7
EDIT-- Not to mention that you would also have more time to react when an automated 2 part system goes awry. Often times with a reactor is malfunctioning, by the time you noticed something is wrong it is already too late -- that is unless you're sitting there testing for CO2 output 24/7 |
06/08/2007, 11:17 AM | #106 | |
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The other factors are those that I intuited that the reactor seems to more closely resemble nature's own process, the potentiality for variances in 2 part purity and concentration, and the requisite work that preparing the solutions requires. Still on the fence. I think I'll sit this one out for a while and let y'all bat it around for a while.
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06/08/2007, 11:22 AM | #107 |
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"The other factors are those that I intuited that the reactor seems to more closely resemble nature's own process, the potentiality for variances in 2 part purity and concentration, and the requisite work that preparing the solutions requires."
only if everthing that is present in coral skeletons breaks down from CO2 to exactly the same components that were originally present. I've never seen CaRx media completely break down, theres always some residue, some I'm pretty sure this isnt the case. Also, Ca Rx are a notorious source of phosphate.
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06/08/2007, 11:25 AM | #108 | |
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Why can't my wife see this stuff as an investment? Current Tank Info: way too much to list, and still adding more! |
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06/08/2007, 12:15 PM | #109 |
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I never had the doser fail on me.You do however have to push a button to restart it when the power goes off.It worked flawlessly for the time I was running my tank.I thought about getting a reactor ,don't think I didn't think about it it was just more simple and safer with the 2 part.Its better to run it all day long,mine dosed alk every 1 1/2 and cal every 2 hrs.Little bit at a time keeps the tank nice and stable.Corals grew very well.I can't complain.I had more instability when I dosed manually
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06/08/2007, 12:46 PM | #110 | |
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However, automatic 2-part dosing represents a single point of failure: the pump. With a reactor, you have the reactor itself, the mixing pump, the feed pump, the solenoid, the co2 tank, the pH controller (a controller is used to shut off your solenoid in case your reactor nukes your tank... not needed in a 2 part method, because it's impossible). You have multiple points of failure with a reactor. I'd be surprised if you could find a single peristaltic hospital pump pumping too quickly and causing a death. That scenario means the end of a company; if your mag drive/eheim dies... so what? It really sounds like your mind is made up actually... you should just get the reactor. |
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06/08/2007, 12:54 PM | #111 | |
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06/08/2007, 01:07 PM | #112 | |
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Like I said earlier in the thread it sounds like you had your mind made up to get a reactor at the begining of the thread and you still do. So why don't you get one Lots of good (and some not so good ) opinions on both sides in this thread. Chris
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"Try to learn something about everything and everything about something" -- Thomas H. Huxley Current Tank Info: 70 gallon mixed reef |
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06/08/2007, 03:20 PM | #113 |
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I see a couple of misconceptions regarding equipment failures here.
Any equipment can fail the issue is to have an installation designed to fail and I can say all systems can be equally safe. Some related notes: A peristaltic pump alone can fail and usually stop dosing: Worst case your parameters slowly drop your salinity may increase a bit but you have about two to three days to react. A peristaltic pump connected to a float switch: The float fails to actuate and the pump stay on, then you can seriously overdose the system and potentially cause a flood, you might have two to three hours to react but this system is easy to make safe if installing a proper float valve and use small reservoir. A calcium reactor CO2 solenoid or controller fails to close: PH in the reactor will drop, you will turn the media to mud but most likely you will not overdose the aquarium as in the majority of the cases the output effluent is already saturated to the max alkalinity and excess CO2 will not be an issue as far as the drip line is not submerged. Planning for this contingency is easy, do not use the controller nor the solenoid valve to control the CO2, set your reactor CO2 with the needle valve to set the PH so the solenoid and controller will be always open, use then to cut off only if the PH goes well beyond the lowest point you could see if the needle valve fails (which is very unlikely) A calcium reactor recirculation pump fails: Worst scenario, the CO2 accumulates in the reactor and the bubble comes out trough the effluent line, if the line output is not submerged nothing will really happen. Effluent alkalinity will drop and you will under dosing but you will have a couple of days to react also. So basically what I am trying to describe here is that with proper setting all systems are as safe no matter how many components are involved. The best guideline I can give you is to set it up assuming it will fail and play the what if game. Some things I usually keep in mind: a) Do not submerge a dripping or effluent line b) Always install a float valve when float switches are involved c) Do not trust suction cups, look for proper ways to secure whatever is mounted. d) Use smaller reservoirs for supplements and top off, never connect a top off to a continued water supply (like the RO/DI) e) Tie / support your CO2 cylinder f) All electrical connections and wires should be above water level. If under, use water proof NEMA enclosures. Keep all air pumps and ozone systems also above water level. and use drip loops in the wires. g) Reduce to a minimum the number of electrical wires submerged and the ones submerged inspect regularly for cracks in the insulation (Powerheads, heaters and such) h) Whenever possible use low voltage (12 V) devices. Never use 110V on a float switch. i) Use GFCI for all your aquarium power supply lines j) Do not use a controller for dosing CO2 k) Do not use a timer to control dosing, get a variable flow doser pump. l) Do not overdrive any light bulbs m) Whenever possible use slip glued piping rather than threaded connections or hose inserts n) Whenever possible use a water on the floor alarm and use a drip or flood pan. o) Whenever working around the tank use a rubber mat to stand on p) Insure proper grounding of all your electrical equipment q) Keep your system and under the stand well ventilated r) Keep your system and equipment neat and clean, dust off any salt misting around the sump. s) Frequently inspect for and immediately repair any leaks no matter how small. t) Frequently clean overflow combs from coralline and algae accumulation u) Always use syphon break orifices where back syphon is likely v) Use a small amount of silicone grease to lubricate any O rings used for sealing (Do not use it on bulkhead packings) w) Do not overtight Kalk or Ca reactor cover flanges. They should leak if over pressure is applied in case a drip line gets clogged. Plan for a doser leaking or shaft slipping if the line gets plugged. x) When using magnet cleaners place them against the panes away from each other then slide them one toward the other when attaching them. y) Use reliable vendors and equipment proved safe, research equipment and designs before any purchases or installation. Fully read, understand and follow all instructions and safety recommendations. z) Read, research and be patient and think clear, never panic. Enjoy your safety!
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Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium |
06/08/2007, 03:26 PM | #114 |
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Calculating your cost
I see some posts trying to compare costs, for a proper comparison the initial setup cost shall be tied with the on going operational cost and media consumption.
I will suggest the following to approximate a cost comparison: a) Determine your setup cost (do not forget to add shipping and handling) b) Assuming your setup shall last at least five years determine the annual cost dividing a above by five c) determine your alkalinity consumption d) Use the chart below as a guideline to determine the annual ongoing cost of your supplementation system. (Calcium reactor include CO2 and Power) e) Add the ongoing annual cost to the initial setup cost and compare. f) Add to the equation whatever your feelings are regarding convenience, risk and such and make your move and enjoy your new toys!
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Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium |
06/08/2007, 03:32 PM | #115 |
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Ah, I see where my math isnt working with yours....
"Cost per pound of US Gal incl shipping" I got my two part stuff locally, so its wicked cheap.... like under a $1/lb cheap. Dowflake/Peladow costs me like $12 for 50lbs Wash soda costs me like $20 for 50lbs
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06/08/2007, 03:41 PM | #116 | |
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If you get the large bags directly from a depo or similar that will be about one third the cost. BTW if you are not, try getting a higher grade of washing soda, A&H used as a laundry boost seem to have some issues due to antifoaming agents being added.
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Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium |
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06/08/2007, 03:49 PM | #117 |
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Do you happen to have the spreadsheet you're using posted on your website?
I want to try to graph out all my options for my current situation, with my local prices, and see how things work out. Currently running the reactor, and kalk (5 gal bucket for $20...woot)
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06/08/2007, 03:53 PM | #118 | |
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06/08/2007, 04:00 PM | #119 | |
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Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium |
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06/08/2007, 04:04 PM | #120 | |
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Calcium reactor media is mined coral skeletons...they go through a whole lot of processing, and are pulled from the ground. Its not like theres no chance of contamination there.
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06/08/2007, 06:29 PM | #121 | |
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Re: Calculating your cost
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For your system calculation in (d) above please divide the cost in the chart by 120 and multiply it by the total volume in your system.
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Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium |
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06/10/2007, 10:27 AM | #122 |
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besides cost, my tank never looked so good nore did i ever have the growth i got untill i added a calreactor. imo the stability a reactor gives you once settup keeps the corals happier
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Who said it was easy to have a reef in your livingroom? Current Tank Info: 150 gallon |
06/10/2007, 01:20 PM | #123 |
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Just decide what your calcium and alk demand will be. Another factor to consider is will you be upgrading to a larger system in the future.
I have a 500 gallon system, and I prefer my reactor and top off via kalk. Its the only way I can keep up with the calcium demand. I also work over a thousand hours of overtime each year, so I prefer automation. I don't have time for tedious tasks when relighable tools can do the job for me. Working in a chemical plant I am exposed to some pretty techy equipment, reactors, chillers, friqs, heat exchangers, hot oil units, massive pumps, level control, tempature control valves, all controled from a central computer. IK wrote all that to say that a calcium reactor is a really simple unit. A vessel thats ph controled and a means of pumping salt water in one end and drips out the other. I would go with a dual chamber design, and I would drip the effulent into the refugium, the macro algae would appreciate the co2. A properly designed tank goes a longway of the lifespan of the system. All of my twin 180s has redundant drans. An oversized sump, and bipased plumbing that way if a pump fails all I have to do is open or close a valve and the tanks can operate off of a single sump return pump. So in summary decide what your tanks needs are and your lifestyle is. Also are you mechanicly inclined? Are you comfortable with technology? Me I work around dangerous chemicals that can easily kill me or cause serious burns. I am also complety comfortable with the equipment that Use...so a calcium reactor is the right fit for me....and if there is a problem it's usually an real easy fix....changing media , properly installing the flanges, priming the lines, and replacing lines that get pluged from an algae build up. On the other hand you could use two pumps and drip part A and Part B into the sump. The only real concern would be matching the drip rates from the two different pumps but Im sure the difference would be minimal. Who knows maybe some time ill be using all three methods to keep up with my tanks calcium demand.
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Got Salt! Current Tank Info: Twin 180's 150 gallon common sump. 6 250 DE Phoenix, HQI ballasts. MRC4 Recirc skimmer. Pacific coast 1/2 horse chiller. Custom calcium reactor. sps reef in tank a mixed reef in tank b in the making. |
06/10/2007, 04:46 PM | #124 | |
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Did I write what I wrote? What the heck am I talking about! Well..... Nevermind. Current Tank Info: 225 gal reef, DSB, 40 g sump w/ LRT100 return, 37 g pre-sump, 3 MH 250 W 15K, 4 96 W PC dual actinic,ETS 1500 Skim.w/LRT70, 20 lb Ca R., 40 W UV, 1/3 HP chiller, two 350 W Htrs, Neptune II Cont., 330 P LR/ 330 P LS. 55 gal Refugium |
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06/10/2007, 06:06 PM | #125 |
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I have been following the thread and I have a question. If you are planning to have a 300 gal mixed Reef a 150 gallon refugium, a 50 frag tank and 100 gallon sump do you dose the amount needed or get a Calcium reactor rated for 350 gal ( the gallons for the display) or do you get it for the entire 600 gallons?
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