Difficult and Special Care Species List

[ssbn627]

Peter Eichler
I really like this list. I had a fu man chu lion fish that I keep in a 20 gal Oceanic Flatback hex. I transported him from South Carolina to Florida. I had a lot of dead live rock that I made caves for him to hang out in. I feed him ghost shrimp till I could get him to eat packaged shrimp. He was about 2 inches when I bought him at Tide Line Aquatics, in 1995, and I gave him to another LFS in Florida in 1998 when I moved back to Wisconsin. He was around 4 or 5 inches when I gave him up. I know they are picky eaters, and I also do not recommend them to anyone. I also currently have a Scooter Blenny all by himself in my 8 gal Oceanic Biocube. I feed him live copepods, and daily feedind of frozen mysis shrimp. My LFS had him in there display tank for 6 months, and I have had him since 6-5-07.

[Peter Eichler]

It seems Scooter Blennies are easier than Mandarins to get to accept prepared foods, though I've never been lucky enough to get one of either that would. Thanks for the feedback on the Fu Manchu.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by Brock Fluharty
If you buy CB seahorses, they don't need live food.

IME it's not quite that cut and dry. I know CB will be more likely to accept foods that aren't live, but I've also heard of and seen many that still won't touch things like mysis and frozen brine, but perhaps that was stress related. I will make a note that CB are far more likely to accept prepared foods when I do my revisions.

P.S. The thread of the month voting is tied so get those votes in

[RichConley]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
IME it's not quite that cut and dry. I know CB will be more likely to accept foods that aren't live, but I've also heard of and seen many that still won't touch things like mysis and frozen brine, but perhaps that was stress related. I will make a note that CB are far more likely to accept prepared foods when I do my revisions.

P.S. The thread of the month voting is tied so get those votes in

Peter, if theyre not eating frozen when you get them, dont purchase any more from that breeder. If a breeder can't even get his animals onto frozen food, then I'd question everything else hes doing.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by RichConley
Peter, if theyre not eating frozen when you get them, dont purchase any more from that breeder. If a breeder can't even get his animals onto frozen food, then I'd question everything else hes doing.

I've never dealt directly with a breeder which I'm sure if part of the problem.

[Peter Eichler]

Last day to vote for thread of the month

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...readid=1170759

[db_triggerfish]

great thread

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by db_triggerfish
great thread

Thanks much!


Any feedback on the Nox angel? I've had very mixed experiences with them and it's another fish I think I'm going to group with the Potters when I add it to the list. So... any personal experiences to sway me to keep it off the list? Not expecting much feedback on this once since it's just not a very popular fish but thought I'd give it a shot.

P.S. Vote!

[aninjaatemyshoe]

"The thing about BTAS is that if you get an undamaged specimen they can be pretty hardy, but they seem especially prone to damage during collection."

My experience with BTAs is that they are almost ridiculously hardy. The first one I got was a pathetic looking specimen that was a hitchhiker on a piece of liverock. This was when I was new to the hobby and kept it in a 24 gallon biocube. It went from a small seemingly near-death nem to a nice sized specimen within a month or two. It thrives to this day. Then there is my experience with a RBTA that decided to dislodge one day and got caught up in my mjmod, OUCH! Took it out almost sure that there was no way it would die. Nope, after I placed it in a more secure location it recovered in a couple of weeks!

I will agree that we should be striving to only keep aquacultured specimens. I know the BTAs I've obtained since the first one were all that way. The one on the liverock was just a bonus. I also agree that many anemones are not good survivors and most are probably not ethical or sustainable to collect/sell/buy. However, I strongly disagree that BTAs should be discouraged. I think we should be encouraging people to keep aquacultured ones (and they are quite available) to keep them from being tempted to buy other anemones. IMO they are great starter specimens for someone who wants to get into reefing.

[grallster]

I must be one of the lucky ones...I've had my clown tang for almost 4 yrs in my 75 gal reef. Eats like a pig and doesn't bother any fish that were there before him.

[dwd5813]

hey Peter,
just wanted to drop a line saying congrats on the thread of the month.
forget the naysayers bud, you are providing valuable information! nice job

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Cyanide and bleach are the two most common substances used, though there might be others I'm not aware of.

Triggerfish are tricky, I don't think it's so common that they're as bad as the two Angels on the list. However, it's common enough with many fish that all hobbyists should educate themselves about possible problems and symptoms of fish caught using cyanide.

Bleach is far less used the Quin (Quinaldine). FWIW most CN caught fish either die prior to even getting to your tank, or live a long life. Most "symptoms" are actually due to starvation in the COC or improper decom (decompression).

Quin is legal in the US with a permit and in itself isn't that bad. Problem lies in the delivery agent. Quin is used thru out the Caribbean. CN has been reported to be used in DR and Haiti although no evidence has ever been shown.

FWIW the US is the only nation to allow the use of any drug in the collection of fish.

[Skipper]

Congrats on Thread of the Month, Peter. Very informative thread!

[rorchilles]

awesome thread

[hahnmeister]

Pretty cool. On the inverts, how about adding some of the snails on the 'avoid' list? The astrae snails that are often collected from the baja arent tropical tolerant, so many who buy those special '100 astrae snails for $30' end up with 80 dead snails every 6 months... and they buy more. I dont keep hermits (I think they are useless lazy buggers whose only purpose in the trade is to kill your snails so you keep buying more), and they still die like crazy. For me, its just easier to buy trochus and nerites because at least I know they are tropical.

I cant stand mexican turbos... they are about as reef safe as a sand-sifter goby... knocking corals and rocks around left and right.

And margarita snails... QUIT BUYING THEM, THEY ARENT TROPICAL!!!

But the one that gets me is the bumblebee snail. It was reclassified about 15 years ago from being a Pusiostoma genus into the Engina genus because its actually a predatory whelk!!! Sure, like any snail it will eat dead meat, but when that isnt around, it will kill other worms and snails to get its meals!!! Its not a herbivore (no teeth for it) or a detrivore (unless you cound 'almost dead', and why places continue to sell them, and people keep buying them is beyond me. Many places try to list it as Pusiostoma mendicaria so when you look it up, all you see is a nice little snail that is a detrivore. Its updated name is Engina mendicaria, and when you look that up, you see a different story of a snail that has even been reported to eat some zoas and polyps! Add all Buccinids (or goblet whelks) to this list...
http://www.marinedepotlive.com/clupcrshveby.html

Also, add olive brittle stars to the list of 'to avoid at all costs' These things are avid predators that can catch wrasses and damsels. I had one clear out a whole tank once it got going. 5 fish, two crabs, and three cleaner shrimp later...

My personal 'avoid' list includes all crabs too... except for the frilly arrow, or decorator arrow. Those are model citizens unlike the regular arrow crab which is just something to never buy. Porcelains are alright, but they usually dont last long unless in a nano made just for them (and sexy shrimp...lol). But to me, sally lightfoots are just not trustworthy when they get larger, and the same goes for emeralds (one male can really do numbers, even though they can mow through grape caulerpa like nothing). Hermits, like I mentioned before, are useless. The only ones that are close to being trusted are the scarletts, and they are useless and hide in the shadows most of the day. Those zebra urchin crabs look interesting, but have specific requirements. Decorator crabs, arrow/spider crabs, soldier crabs... I wouldnt buy a single one (unless feeding them to the mantis).

[Peter Eichler]

Thanks everyone for your help in making this the thread of the month!

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by aninjaatemyshoe
"The thing about BTAS is that if you get an undamaged specimen they can be pretty hardy, but they seem especially prone to damage during collection."

My experience with BTAs is that they are almost ridiculously hardy. The first one I got was a pathetic looking specimen that was a hitchhiker on a piece of liverock. This was when I was new to the hobby and kept it in a 24 gallon biocube. It went from a small seemingly near-death nem to a nice sized specimen within a month or two. It thrives to this day. Then there is my experience with a RBTA that decided to dislodge one day and got caught up in my mjmod, OUCH! Took it out almost sure that there was no way it would die. Nope, after I placed it in a more secure location it recovered in a couple of weeks!

I will agree that we should be striving to only keep aquacultured specimens. I know the BTAs I've obtained since the first one were all that way. The one on the liverock was just a bonus. I also agree that many anemones are not good survivors and most are probably not ethical or sustainable to collect/sell/buy. However, I strongly disagree that BTAs should be discouraged. I think we should be encouraging people to keep aquacultured ones (and they are quite available) to keep them from being tempted to buy other anemones. IMO they are great starter specimens for someone who wants to get into reefing.

When I do revisions I'm going to make some sort of note about BTAs being the most suitable of the clown anemones for home aquaria.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by grallster
I must be one of the lucky ones...I've had my clown tang for almost 4 yrs in my 75 gal reef. Eats like a pig and doesn't bother any fish that were there before him.

Congrats, they're one of my favorite fish and I wish more people would have the success that you have had. Do you have any current pics of him (he looks pretty young/small in that pic)? Also, I'm pretty shocked that he hasn't outgrown a 75 gal. in 4 years time, how big is it now?

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by GreshamH
Bleach is far less used the Quin (Quinaldine). FWIW most CN caught fish either die prior to even getting to your tank, or live a long life. Most "symptoms" are actually due to starvation in the COC or improper decom (decompression).

Quin is legal in the US with a permit and in itself isn't that bad. Problem lies in the delivery agent. Quin is used thru out the Caribbean. CN has been reported to be used in DR and Haiti although no evidence has ever been shown.

FWIW the US is the only nation to allow the use of any drug in the collection of fish.

Thanks for the heads up on quinaldine, I had heard of it but didn't realize it was so commonly used.

While I agree that many cyanide caught fish die before getting to a home aquarium, we'll have to agree to disagree about them living a long life if they make it past that stage. I've just seen too many fish that I believe were caught with cyanide die within weeks of arriving in dealer tanks. My gut tells me delayed mortality rates are probably higher than ever and instant mortality rates are lower than ever as a result of the tweaking of dosages used to collect. That is not to say that I don't believe that cyanide caught fish can live long lives and most research suggests it's dosage dependant.

Ultimately, and I'm sure you agree with this. The biggest problem with cyanide isn't the fish that die as a result, it's the destruction left behind.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Pretty cool. On the inverts, how about adding some of the snails on the 'avoid' list? The astrae snails that are often collected from the baja arent tropical tolerant, so many who buy those special '100 astrae snails for $30' end up with 80 dead snails every 6 months... and they buy more. I dont keep hermits (I think they are useless lazy buggers whose only purpose in the trade is to kill your snails so you keep buying more), and they still die like crazy. For me, its just easier to buy trochus and nerites because at least I know they are tropical.

I cant stand mexican turbos... they are about as reef safe as a sand-sifter goby... knocking corals and rocks around left and right.

And margarita snails... QUIT BUYING THEM, THEY ARENT TROPICAL!!!

But the one that gets me is the bumblebee snail. It was reclassified about 15 years ago from being a Pusiostoma genus into the Engina genus because its actually a predatory whelk!!! Sure, like any snail it will eat dead meat, but when that isnt around, it will kill other worms and snails to get its meals!!! Its not a herbivore (no teeth for it) or a detrivore (unless you cound 'almost dead', and why places continue to sell them, and people keep buying them is beyond me. Many places try to list it as Pusiostoma mendicaria so when you look it up, all you see is a nice little snail that is a detrivore. Its updated name is Engina mendicaria, and when you look that up, you see a different story of a snail that has even been reported to eat some zoas and polyps! Add all Buccinids (or goblet whelks) to this list...
http://www.marinedepotlive.com/clupcrshveby.html

Also, add olive brittle stars to the list of 'to avoid at all costs' These things are avid predators that can catch wrasses and damsels. I had one clear out a whole tank once it got going. 5 fish, two crabs, and three cleaner shrimp later...

My personal 'avoid' list includes all crabs too... except for the frilly arrow, or decorator arrow. Those are model citizens unlike the regular arrow crab which is just something to never buy. Porcelains are alright, but they usually dont last long unless in a nano made just for them (and sexy shrimp...lol). But to me, sally lightfoots are just not trustworthy when they get larger, and the same goes for emeralds (one male can really do numbers, even though they can mow through grape caulerpa like nothing). Hermits, like I mentioned before, are useless. The only ones that are close to being trusted are the scarletts, and they are useless and hide in the shadows most of the day. Those zebra urchin crabs look interesting, but have specific requirements. Decorator crabs, arrow/spider crabs, soldier crabs... I wouldnt buy a single one (unless feeding them to the mantis).

I'll make a note about some of the cool water snails commonly offered in the hobby.

I know where you're coming from with the crabs and bumblebee snails. While I never suggest the Bumblebee snails I've always found them to be pretty harmless, though I know that's not always the case. Crabs however I feel often get a bad rap in this hobby. Yes, many of them can be destructive but I've never found all small hermits to be the blood thirsty snails killers that many make them out to be. In fact I feel Cortez Red Leg Hermits are quite reef safe and not bothersome to snails. I also think they can be quite useful as scavengers and will eat various forms of nuisance algae. despite where they're collected from I've had them live for years in temps of 80+. The same goes for Astreas from the same area. However, I'm not aware of the life expectancy of either.

Thanks much for the feedback and hopefulyl some day we can discuss things in person if I ever manage to make it out to a WRS meeting.

[grallster]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Congrats, they're one of my favorite fish and I wish more people would have the success that you have had. Do you have any current pics of him (he looks pretty young/small in that pic)? Also, I'm pretty shocked that he hasn't outgrown a 75 gal. in 4 years time, how big is it now?

That is a current pic--he's only around 5 in. now (he was pretty small when I got him). I've got a 120 I'll be moving him to shortly and hopefully up from there someday.
He's proved to be a durable fish, I even found him laying on the floor one morning all dried up! Threw him back in and he sunk like a rock! Within 10 minutes he was swimming around (still had a pectoral stuck to his side from dried mucus), and in one day he was fine--never even got ick. He goes nuts for everything I put in the tank, especially Nori.

[RichConley]

I have never had a problem with hermits (or emerald crabs for that matter), and frankly, they're much better algae eaters (for macro, and hair) than any of the snails.


I think the issue is that most people try to control nutrients by limiting food, instead of doing it properly, and increasing export.

Dont starve your animals, buy a bigger skimmer.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by hahnmeister
Pretty cool. On the inverts, how about adding some of the snails on the 'avoid' list? The astrae snails that are often collected from the baja arent tropical tolerant

Astraeas like this industry knows (white cone type shells) aren't exported from Baja. The Astraeas (gibberosa, unguis, etc) in baja are for the most part colofull shelled animals unlike the white ones from the Atlantic. There's no quotas for exporting Astraeas from baja as well. Tegula sp. and Turbo fluctuosa are the most common exports from Baja as far as snails go. Neither live that long for most due to the temps we keep (constant). The Tegulas require colder water then the Turbo fluctuosa and have no purpose in the tropical trade what so ever.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Peter Eichler
Thanks for the heads up on quinaldine, I had heard of it but didn't realize it was so commonly used.

While I agree that many cyanide caught fish die before getting to a home aquarium, we'll have to agree to disagree about them living a long life if they make it past that stage. I've just seen too many fish that I believe were caught with cyanide die within weeks of arriving in dealer tanks. My gut tells me delayed mortality rates are probably higher than ever and instant mortality rates are lower than ever as a result of the tweaking of dosages used to collect. That is not to say that I don't believe that cyanide caught fish can live long lives and most research suggests it's dosage dependant.

Ultimately, and I'm sure you agree with this. The biggest problem with cyanide isn't the fish that die as a result, it's the destruction left behind.

What lead you to belive they were CN caught? Like I said, almost all symptoms most point to as being CN signs are from improper handling in the COC, mainly starvation and poor decom. Sunkin bellies, red bellies, lead tail (heavy tail, swimming straight up), spirraling, blown out ragged fins and wasting away are all huge signs of poor decom and starvation. Once starved long enough, most fish can not rebound. It may take several months and the fish may be appearing to eat, but in most cases the animal just can not uptake the nutrients from the food and pass it right thru.

After spending over a decade on the CN issue myself and being mentored by the original whistle blower on the issue you can say I'm quite against . Your absolutly right about the trail of destruction being the ultimate problem. Killing divers is also kinda a bad draw back as well. The cracking of CN pills with ones teeth sure seems like a great way to kill ones self, but it's a daily routine for many dopers around the world.

If you want to read more, I have every paper written on the subject and many unpublished ones as well. I have all the articles from the 80's era FAMA on this subject scanned if you want to history on the subject. More info is contained in the articles then most of the internet sites combined.

Some day hopefully the dopers will see the light and put down the bottle of "magic" as it's called in many locations.

[Peter Eichler]

Originally posted by GreshamH
What lead you to belive they were CN caught? Like I said, almost all symptoms most point to as being CN signs are from improper handling in the COC, mainly starvation and poor decom. Sunkin bellies, red bellies, lead tail (heavy tail, swimming straight up), spirraling, blown out ragged fins and wasting away are all huge signs of poor decom and starvation. Once starved long enough, most fish can not rebound. It may take several months and the fish may be appearing to eat, but in most cases the animal just can not uptake the nutrients from the food and pass it right thru.

After spending over a decade on the CN issue myself and being mentored by the original whistle blower on the issue you can say I'm quite against . Your absolutly right about the trail of destruction being the ultimate problem. Killing divers is also kinda a bad draw back as well. The cracking of CN pills with ones teeth sure seems like a great way to kill ones self, but it's a daily routine for many dopers around the world.

If you want to read more, I have every paper written on the subject and many unpublished ones as well. I have all the articles from the 80's era FAMA on this subject scanned if you want to history on the subject. More info is contained in the articles then most of the internet sites combined.

Some day hopefully the dopers will see the light and put down the bottle of "magic" as it's called in many locations.

My biggest reason for believing they were cyanide caught was their collection location. Years ago when I managed a fish store fish known to be collected from the Philipines had dismal survival rates compared to fish known to be collected from other areas. There were also behavioral signs as well as coloration signs some authors have pointed out.

You don't happen to have the full version of this article do you? If so I'd greatly appreciate it if you could send it to me.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/n1874w353r335663/