Probiotics for NPS tanks - Vodka, Prodibio, Zeovit etc.

[sammy33]

I am thinking seriously about starting an NPS style reef (or possibly converting my SPS reef) and want to discuss probiotics.

What are Probiotics?
Probiotic methods introduce beneficial bacteria into the aquarium system or introduce a fuel source for the bacteria presently in the system to encourage consumption/conversion of nitrates, phosphates and organics. Methods like Zeovit or Polyp Labs Reefresh or Ultralith or even DIY method with vodka dosing or even using bio-spira/cycle etc. These methods seek to reduce nutrients in the form of dissolved organics, nitrate, phosphate to very low levels. This in turn creates a water born bio-mass that can be removed by your skimmer. This allows increased feedings and hopefully results in better coral health with a cleaner environment. Seems to work as I see lots of positive results with these type methods - even Pappone/Blu Coral method that uses sugar as the carbon source.

With that said it seems that Chuck Stottlemire is having great results with using Vodka dosing on his system at the rate of 9ml/day for a 500g system. Charles Matthews proposed that bacteria may be introduced by Chuck's feed mix being dripped at room temp over 12 hours?

I have been using Prodibio. This uses a bacteria source and and bacteria food to strenghthen these organic waste removers in the reef aquarium with periodic dosing. It seems to be doing a great job at helping control nutrients in my SPS reef tank. This product seems like it may also be useful in an NPS reef as the bacteria and water born biologicals may act as a food source as well as reduce the polluting factor of a constant infusion of phytoplankton?

Hmmm? Any other experiences or ideas on using these systems? Zeovit with some sort of automatic media stirrer?

[Kreeger1]

I
m dosing 10 ml per day on my 400 gal non photo system. I also ordered Prodibio on friday to add another bacteria source to feed my dendro's I will post results as followed.

With 10 ml per day I get a white film on the glass every other day or so. I'm hoping that the dendros feed on that. Today chuck was over with his mesoscope, but luck wasn't on my side today. the dendros were n't open and feeding... hour later and everything was all open but only the scerlos and gorgonians were while he was over.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


I'm not going to jump too deeply into this (... yet ..) as I'm in the process of finalizing my design for utilizing the "basic 4" (nutrient reduction components) of the ZEOvit system to drive an NPS reef, but ...

Originally posted by sammy33
... the bacteria and water born biologicals may act as a food source as well as reduce the polluting factor of a constant infusion of phytoplankton? ...

There's no question that bacterioplankton have the potential to constitute a component of an azooxanthelate coral's energy budget ... whether it's much more than ~20% remains an open question. A far more interesting question ... to my little twisted mind, at least ... is what does the nutrient profile of a phytoplankton-bacterioplankton aggregate look like? I suspect that a phytoplankton cell with an associated bacteria colony delivers enough "enrichment" to make it worth the effort.

There's little question that a "probiotic" component would be a legitimate component to aid in nutrient reduction. I would also suggest that there's a potentially big difference in the nutrient reduction performance between "probiotic" strategies which incorporate a bacterial culturing vessel (a la zeo or ultralith "reactors") compared with strategies which are confined to only nurient and/or bacteria dosing.



JMO ... HTH

[sammy33]

Interesting paralells between an SPS style reef that say for instance is managed using zeovit and has all the other traditional trappings (big skimmer, large sump, great flow, even kalk reactors, etc.). The NPS reef may be almost the same just take away the super bright lighting and replace with some fluorescents, realign the flow for laminar or tidal laminar and start the feedings.

The reduction in intense lighting will seem necessary with all this food/enrichment going on in an NPS stlye reef. If the tank is even devoid of photosynthetic animals you may not need to run the lights for more than a few hours a day simply so you can look at your corals.

I am wondering if it would be wise to completely eliminate photosynthesis? There is photosynthesis going on on the reef somewhere...right? So what do the probiotic methods do differently in this style system NPS reef with way less photosynthesis occuring?

I would think that an attached refugium (reverse daylight photosynthesis) would be necessary and then the Dendro, Sclero display then becomes another zone in the ecosystem. The photosynthesis (uptake and oxygen productions) from an attached refgium seems more important for NPS tanks so shouldn't an NPS refugium be larger than average? Maybe match the display size or even larger?

Sorry for so many random thoughts here. Having a the new Non-Photosynthetic Corals forum is just the coolest thing so I am getting carried away.

[Stottlemire]

Alot of good thoughts, it will be interesting to find out what works

Chuck

[GreshamH]

Can you show me where Charles said he thought bacteria was being introduced by Chuck's style of feeding?

I said in a thread that the media Roti-Feast is in is a great source for a bacterial feed.

[Kolognekoral]

The idea of a multi eco-tat system run between multiple tanks has been my on-off project for some years. I am currently working with the Zeovit system, plus a DSB in a refugium. I do not have a sump in the traditional sense, rather a overflow chamber where the skimmer is plus a circulation pump for the main reef.

The refugium is attached to the reef above waterlevel and flows per gravity back into the reef at a rate of about 1000l per hour. The total system is around 900l. I run the refugium with a long day of 18 hours, while the reef is at 12. They do overlap and there is a 6 hour dark period in both tanks simulatneously.

I have had not pH problems, despite the kalkreaktor, but PO4 is always a bit higher than I would like, as there are SPS in the system, too. PO4 is around 0.09 and NO3 <1ppm.

I feed the tank two to three times per day for the fish and once every evening for the filterfeeders.

As I have been using Zeo for only a few months, after having tried the Ultralith system, which didn't appeal to me and the Elos system, which is plain old too expensive, even in Europe, and find this type of filtration has many benefits for one who wishes to reproduce a more reef-real aquarium.

We have mentioned bacteria and carbon dosing, which is a part of these systems. Vodka alone has proved to be less effective due to benefiting only certain bacterial strains. Multiple carbon sources provide a more balanced bacterial flora, but the question still remains, what carbon sources bring what results.

I have not gone after this question as, frankly, the products from Zeo suite me, are affordable and work for me. If I need to know more I have the advantage of being right near the source and can get advice. (Thomas may not give out his formulae, but he certainly likes exchanging info). But this is not the topic, per se.....

Dendronephthya are not bacteria feeders, rather phytoplankton feeders. Apparently, Scleronephthya are more omnivorous. Both are short lived on the reef. Gorgonians seem to be oriented toward bacteria and small zooplankton, but that is strictly an anecdotal observation. I suspect the Crinoids are, as well, but some seem to be very specialized in regards to food particle size.

I can say that since my pro-bio system has settled in, the Scleros, finer gorgonians, sponges and tunicates have really profited. Stone corals, as well, but they were always pretty good, the colours are just much improved, as is the growth rate.

I could go on, but I don't want to extend too far beyond this threads intent.

Just a few personal experiences.....

[Whalehead9]

If you do not release the biofilms from time to time how can the corals get enough energy from either a fuge or a zeovit reactor? I know that there are biolims available on the available surface area, but how do you get them to your corals for feed? it seems that with the vodka method, that the bloom of bacteria is suspended in the water column where the corals and the skimmers can take them out. Other than wiping down the sides of the aquarium, does anybody try to liberate any of these biofilms?

[Kreeger1]

Greshamh ,
why is it that you always seem to be on the attack. Relax man, relax

Charles said something to the sort by chucks use of vodka not the reed's products
Erik

[Kolognekoral]

Ahhh, yes. Well, one shakes the stones down a couple times a day, either by hand or some have added a second pump that actually pushes the stones about at periodic intervals. Then the film is free to flow back into the aquarium or be skimmed off.

To get a better visual image, check-out some on-line stores to see what these zeo reactors look like.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Kreeger1
Greshamh ,
why is it that you always seem to be on the attack. Relax man, relax

Charles said something to the sort by chucks use of vodka not the reed's products
Erik

Your confusing my short posts as "an attack" but they aren't I wanted to see where that was said as I hadn't seen it. Since when is dry considerred an attack?

Charles Matthews proposed that bacteria may be introduced by Chuck's feed mix being dripped at room temp over 12 hours?

That led me to belive he's talking about the feeds Chuck doses over a 12 hour period, not the vodka. I wasn't aware vodka was any different at room temp then that of being cold, but RF/SD is effected. I could be wrong, which is another reason why I asked for a link.

[sammy33]

Originally posted by GreshamH
Can you show me where Charles said he thought bacteria was being introduced by Chuck's style of feeding?

I said in a thread that the media Roti-Feast is in is a great source for a bacterial feed.

Charles was eluding to this in
this post in the Dendro thread.

4) The cooling issue: Chuck has demonstrated that cooling isn't an issue for NP coral feeding as long as you reload at 12 hours. This is very valuable information, and I suggest you take it to the bank. For longer periods of time, I hope someone comes up with a reservoir/refrigerator concept. I think a syringe pump would have less degradation than a bucket. I have noted that the rotifer product degrades in the bucket at 12 hours, whereas it doesn't in the syringe pump. [i]But- perhaps they are not eating just rotifers, maybe they are eating the degraded slime?[i]

Charles is simply suggesting that the media in Roti-feast is degrading and may be providing additional food for the system. I interpreted this as a bacteria source? This sort of bio slime has been mentioned several times in the Dendro thread.

You likely know much more about roti-feast ingredients than anyone in this thread - so are we way off on this idea?

[druluv]

Originally posted by Whalehead9
If you do not release the biofilms from time to time how can the corals get enough energy from either a fuge or a zeovit reactor? I know that there are biolims available on the available surface area, but how do you get them to your corals for feed? it seems that with the vodka method, that the bloom of bacteria is suspended in the water column where the corals and the skimmers can take them out. Other than wiping down the sides of the aquarium, does anybody try to liberate any of these biofilms?

This how I release the biofilm, or what zeoheads call mulm back into the display. I pump water from the last chamber in the sump, into my zeo-sump. I also have a small nano pump circulating water around the zeo rocks. Everyday I use a small pvc tube, and stir the rocks until it gets really cloudy in the zeo sump. A couple hours later, my softies open.

DIY Zeo Sump:


Here is an example:



Please note: the Orange Coral is only 3 weeks added, and the red one is barely week in. But I must add that the zeo method is helping to get these corals to feed. I don’t know how long these guys will stay alive, but so far they look alright.

[Whalehead9]

I see that the feeding response seems to be quite strong by releasing the biofilms, But is that enough food to keep these animals healthy? Couldn't you feed once the polyps are open?

The more I think of this the more I'm reminded of sand stirring by Wilkens(I think that it was Wilkens, please Correct me if I'm wrong), and I can't find anybody who has replicated long term success. I think that biofilms can play a part in NPS systems, but any product that can increase suspended organisms have to be the best. I have not used the probidio method, but if is a strain of bacteria that can grow and suspend in the water column that does not need a fixed substrate, then it has to be a superior product. After all aren't we trying to create systems for suspension feeders? If we create systems that have large biofilms that release into the water column various organisms of various sizes can any of the corals we are trying hard to keep actually eat them?

[Kreeger1]

very interesting!

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by sammy33
Charles was eluding to this in
this post in the Dendro thread.



Charles is simply suggesting that the media in Roti-feast is degrading and may be providing additional food for the system. I interpreted this as a bacteria source? This sort of bio slime has been mentioned several times in the Dendro thread.

You likely know much more about roti-feast ingredients than anyone in this thread - so are we way off on this idea?

Ah that post. IIRC I posted a follow up question to his post to see what the "bucket" mix was, I.E. RF and SD diluted in NSW?

If it's not diluted product there shouldn't really be any bacteria. Now if it's diluted into NSW I could definitely see some baceria forming. The medie Roti-Feast is mixed in is a great bacteria food source once mixed with NSW Allowing RF to sit for that long most likely creates a biofilm around each rotifer as well as in the bucket water column.

[Kreeger1]

So is the bio film a good or bad thing for the dendro's or is that still open to discussion?
Erik

[Whalehead9]

It has to be open to discussion. Wouldn't the biofilm change overall size of the decomposing rotifer? Or is that the key?

I recently saw a program on one of the nature programs(there are too many to keep them all straight), and it was showing water coming up from great depths to a shallow reef and there in the pictures were very large NP soft corals. Now I couldn't tell what kind they were, But they had to be dendro or Sclero. If that is true, then the animals living there cannot be feeding on phyto. The water has not been exposed to any real sunlight for very long periods of time. The animals have to be feeding on marine snow of some sort. Like say conglomerates of bacteria feeding on small particles, like rotifers and other small unicellular organisms. If that is true, then what organisms we have in our tank will dictate how each feeding regimen will effect them. Could it be that mixing the Rotifers and SD and letting them develop a biofilm be what makes that feeding regimen so effective?

[airinhere]

Whalehead might have just hit the nail with the hammer.

The idea that the NPS corals are feeding on the bacteria covering the particles in the water would make plenty of sense.

And expain the hit or miss success NPS corals seem to be. We are focused on feeding them, but the foods were not prepared correctly.

Gresham, what is the medium RF is prepared in? Are there any other products with similar bacterial feeding properties? Might the medium be made available a'la carte? That way people could try mixing it with other food sources to try and see how the nps corals respond to the various food types?

I am thinking that perhaps a certain size of food is required for the nps corals to have a feeding response, but the consumed food is purely bacterial. Without the right food particle (host) size, there is no feeding response. Without the bacterial coating there is no nutrient uptake. This might explain why people report seeing their nps corals display polyp extension and what looks like feeding responses, but yet the coral starves to death anyways.

[mesocosm]

Greetings All !


The formation, composition, and behavior of macro-aggregates (aka "marine snow") as they enter and exit various biogeochemical pathways is actually quite interesting. I put this one together a while ago ...

The "Mulm" Thread
(Z, GaryWhite, 03.19.2006)
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5770

The reference article listing for the thread is here:
http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthr...4798#post64798


While many of the image links were broken a couple of years ago as a result of a database "upgrade", they are still embedded in the article that is referenced ... a few moments to take a look may be worth the effort. Some of them are way cool, for example ...


A well-colonized macro-aggregate.


Model of amino acids leaching from a macro-aggregate.


FWIW ...

Originally posted by airinhere
... I am thinking that perhaps a certain size of food is required for the nps corals to have a feeding response, ... Without the right food particle (host) size, there is no feeding response.

Particle size, flow rate, and chemical signals have all been documented to be involved with a feeding response.

Originally posted by airinhere
... but the consumed food is purely bacterial. ...

While I want to be there in the car with you on this ... I have found no evidence for this whatsoever. Even so, there's little doubt that bacterioplankton contribute to some fraction of the energy budget. How much remains a very open question.

Originally posted by airinhere
... Without the bacterial coating there is no nutrient uptake...

My data mining expeditions during the last few years have yielded nothing which would directly support this kind of an assertion. However, there's no question that bacterial action might make nutrients available (which would not otherwise be available absent bacterial action). Association with free-living bacteria from the water column isn't required ... the bacteria living in the gastric cavity are adequate to the task.

Originally posted by airinhere
... This might explain why people report seeing their nps corals display polyp extension and what looks like feeding responses, ...

I would suggest that we need to be careful when asserting anything remotely resembling an explanation, after all ... many environmental variables ... many chemical signals & triggers ... much genetic diversity across a range of species ... much specialized adaptation across a wide range of geographic source locations.

Such a dizzying combination of variables does not make for good anecdotal correlations. Even so, I'm totally stoked with the way this multi-year conversation is finally evolving ... and I can't wait to see how the patterns sort themselves out as more folks begin dabbling with Chuck's method.


Consider ...

50,000 cells/mL Threshold
Continuous
Phytoplankton
Zooplankton
Non-zero phosphates
Carbon Dosing
Free-living bacteria & biofilm remnants
76 Degrees Fahrenheit
8-10 cm/s

Read those nine "things we think we know now" and reflect on the discussion of the last four years.









Extraordinary ... nothing less than freakin' extraordinary ... JMO

[Kreeger1]

76 degrees Fahrenheit

[mesocosm]

Originally posted by Kreeger1
76 degrees Fahrenheit

Ouch ... good catch ... correction made ...

Thanks!

[Whalehead9]

mesocosm, I agree with all that you said. I just want to state that Chuck method involves a separate chamber with air bubbling into it that the phyto and rotifers are placed where they are refilled every twelve hours. This is not necessarily a sterile environment. There has to be film associated with that kind of feeding. Is that good or bad? This is the question.

Most prepared long term phyto mixes don't do much but add PO4 and NO3. But Stuff that can go bad over time work better. I wonder if the preservatives added to the ineffective coral foods is their downfall. DT and Reed have a shelf life and do go bad which suggests that Biofilms do occur. It could be inferred that the syringe pump might not be an ideal feeding instrument, because it cannot form the same density of biofilms. Now in time the introduced food will accumulate the biofilms as free floating bacteria begin to break the cells down, but there would be lag time before that happens. It could possibly keep the tank cleaner and that could be a major factor.

Maybe this is a moot point, but maybe all roads do lead to Rome and I am just running in circles.

I am trying to figure out why chucks system is the magic tank. I feel like Spike Lee yelling "Its gotta Be the FOOD. Money money money."(It's an old Nike Commercial) Somehow I am not satisfied with the answer just do what I do I want to know why it works.

[GreshamH]

Originally posted by Whalehead9
mesocosm, I agree with all that you said. I just want to state that Chuck method involves a separate chamber with air bubbling into it that the phyto and rotifers are placed where they are refilled every twelve hours.

Now I'm confused, I thought Chuck used the syringe pump?

At any rate in that method, are they just mixed together, diluted with something, or bubbled in their own seperate container?

I'm just trying to figure out what this method entails so I can duplicate it here and see what our scientists can find out about it I'd love to see some pics of the feed thru out the 12 hour period.

The media in RF is just alginate and seawater really. There's A couple acids (citric, ascorbic, sorbic & proprionic) in it. The alginate is what I keep saying is a great bacterial food source. Likewise with glycerine based products, like Brine Shrimp Direct or liquid Life products.

[Whalehead9]

The quote from this months article written by Charles Matthews states: "Chuck Stottlemire feeds 100 mls of a commercial algae concentrate (Reed Mariculture's Shellfish Diet) and 40 mls of concentrated rotifers ("RotiFeast") via continuous infusion (half of each is diluted in two gallons and administered q 12 hours via drip by peristaltic pump and airline agitation in the container, no cooling mechanism used) in a 180-gallon reef tank (which overflows to a total system volume ~500 gallons for dilution)."

Charles Matthews has been talking about the syringe pump, because it works easier.