Problems staining tank stand.

REMoses · 12/20/2006, 07:20 AM

Hey Everyone!

I stained my tank stand yesterday with a Minwax stain. Right now it is still tacky and it is over 24 hours since I applied the stain. The tank was previously stained and laquered. I used fine grit sand paper and sanded the entire stand. I went down to the bare wood in some areas and in others I tried to take off the top coat of laquer.

Is the stain still tacky b/c I did not sand down enough? I plan on putting a coat or two of poly on this stand. Will I have a problem since it was previously laquered? ANY help would be greatly appreciated!!

REMoses

Bergovoy · 12/20/2006, 10:38 PM

Hello,

Not sure what minwax product you used, but it sounds like you used one that had a stain and sealar in one. If the stand was previously sealed, then a new sealar will not soak in and will tend to sit on top and take forever to dry.

I would get some lacquer thinner and wipe down everything you did, and basically start over.

If the material you used does not dry, and you put something on top of it, it will wrinkle and you will end up having to stip it off with a different material, and that would be bad...

If ypou want to restain the wood, you will have to stripwhatever was onthere to begin with, use a stripper, then sand like crazy.

Some times it is just better to Paint...

Good luck

Let me know what happens.

bill

REMoses · 12/20/2006, 11:04 PM

Thanks for the reply Bill! No, I definately only used stain. It is now about 48 hours into drying and I believe it is as good as it is going to get. A consideration that I left out was the cold weather. I had left the window open for ventilation and temperatures were just above freezing overnight, so I closed up everything and plugged in a heater/fan. Now things look more like I would expect them to look. The areas where I sanded to bare wood have the dull finish you would expect from staining a piece of wood. The areas where I tried to remove the lacquer but did not sand all the way down to the wood (i.e. removing the previous stain) has a more glossy look. I am still going to let it stand and possibly try to poly it tomorrow.

I am concerned that the glossy areas may be a problem. The areas are dry to the touch but just not the same sheen as the other "bare" areas. Will this cause a problem if I apply poly the way it is?

Bergovoy · 12/21/2006, 05:09 AM

The finish should be abosulutely dry before you put anyting on top of it.

If you took a clean rag, could you wipe anything off/??

And if you do, are you taking hte color off withit? If the color is into the wood, just wipe away the excess.

Like I said in the first message, if you did not take the finish off the wood before putting on thet stain, thenteh stain will just sit on top of the wood and not soak in. that will be a problem.

But if it eventually drys, you mmay just get lucky. If there is a an area that has the shinier surface on the sides or the back or some small isolated are for you to experiment on, that would e the bestway to try applying the polyurathane, (is htat what you are using?)

i would also suggest for you to use a satin finish or semi-gloss. Do not use a Gloss finish. The gloss finish will highlige\t and espose any and everry surface scrathc, sanding mark, dust, lint, etc.

Also, a tip for applying the clear coat is to thin it a drop with paint thinner, (if you are using solvent based material), then use a small cigar type of roller to roll it on first, then use a 'bristle' brush, (the expensive type, sorry but it is worth it).

When yo ugo over it witht the brush, just use as few strokes as possible. if it is flat surface, start at the bottom and pull the brush upwards and you are done.

If it is a door or other thing that has nooks and crannies, then right after you use the roller, dab the brush into all the corners and crevises, then again pull the brus in one direction.

Use VERY VERY VERY thin coats of clear coat.

Two coast will definately look ten thousand times better then thick coats.

Also, if you have not bought the amterial yet, There is a brand that sells crystal clear finish. or water clear finish.

That material is not yellow and it will not yellow.

Defuinately a far better looking product.

I have not tried the water based material,but have heard good things abou tthem. Escept that applying them is different then the solfent base stuff.

Also, since the brushes are expensive, and if you do not finish in one day, as in if you apply two coats, wrap the bush in plastic wrap, use a lot to geep the air out, and then you can put the whole thing in the fridge or freezer

Have fun

BeanAnimal · 12/21/2006, 07:07 AM

Stain is just that "stain" it is meant to soak into the poors of the wood. You can not stain over a finish (as bill has also explained). You can use "gel stain" to some degree as it is more like paint than stain.

As has been mentioned... going down to bare wood is your best bet. It is hard to party sand and spot finish anything like this.

I myself like hand rubbed finishes and would never touch stain or poly with a brush

Bergovoy · 12/21/2006, 08:33 AM

I agree with bean. Natural wood is and has its own color.

Why someone would buy oak and stain it cherry Iwill never know.

But to stain properly needs to be stripped, chemically, they bleached to remove all color. Then color away.

Almost like dying your hair... Um, not that I would know about that ....

BeanAnimal · 12/21/2006, 08:51 AM

HEY! I am trying to stain poplar cherry

Poplar carcass with cherry face frames... I tried to build a cabinent cheap and am now paying the price!

cubber · 12/21/2006, 09:28 AM

I agree with the whole why stain perfectly good wood idea. I prefer just to protect it with a poly finish like the minwax polycrylic. That stuff drys so fast! My whole house is pine and I love the natural look, plus as it ages the wood gets darker. I just recently did my new tank stand I am building with the polycrylic and it came out great! It is an oak stand and 3 coats of the polycrylic really brought out the true color of the wood.

You can check out my build thread here

Also you did not specify if the products you were using are water or oil based. You have to be careful when mixing the two because you can have problems. I prefer to stick with water based products myself, easier cleanup!

Bergovoy · 12/21/2006, 09:40 AM

Okay, I can agree to staining PINE, yuck... j/k

Talk about your log cabin...

And bean, your poplar is going to be very popular...

cubber · 12/21/2006, 09:46 AM

Poplar has a nice look to it as well, especially if you get some with some color in it. I have seen some nice poplar boards with some salmon coloring to it.

Personally I can't see how someone can take a beautiful peice of wood and paint it white or any other color for that matter.

cstires · 12/21/2006, 10:13 AM

I just went through this experience and I can tell you that staining poplar is a royal PITA!!! I ended up painting mine because nothing I did would create the finish that I wanted!

The thicker the coat of stain you put on, will greatly vary the drying time. It should take long at all if you applied, then let stand for 5-15mins, and then wiped off. But if you didn't wipe any off, then it could take a while to dry...

BeanAnimal · 12/21/2006, 10:17 AM

You have to wipe the stain off... it is not paint

That is the biggest mistake people make (allowing the stain to layer and dry like paint).

I prefer the oil based products and the amber they give. I do not like the unnatural (to me) blue hue that the water base products have. I may have to use analine dye to stain the poplar when trying to get it to match the cherry... time will tell as this has to be finished by new years (guests coming).

REMoses · 12/21/2006, 12:08 PM

Ok, I did the dry paper towel test and I am happy to say that the stain is dry. It is interesting in that the wood I am trying to stain is most likely poplar. I am not sure but I think it is it. The stand was custom made for me about 10 years ago and I do not recollect the type of wood. I will say that it was NOT easy to stain. There were areas where I went down to the bare wood and it still took its sweet time soaking up the stain. In those areas I did apply the stain like paint and put on a thicker coat, but I went back about 15 mins later and wiped it off. I did this about 3 times till it had blended perfectly with the rest of the stand.

Now the really big question (and hopefully the last):

Do I use Poly or Lacquer to finsh it? I was told that it originally had lacquer. Should I stick with this or should I now take the opportunity to apply Poly? When I originally started the project, the salesperson suggested a WATCO Clear Lacquer so I have a small can of that but I was thinking Poly may be better. If indeed I have a disaster in the making, will I minimize the damage by using the stuff that was on there before or does it really make a difference at this point?

I also just wanted to say that everyone on this board has been really helpful. I appreciate all the comments and it makes me feel that I am not in this alone. I truly appreciate the help!

REMoses

BeanAnimal · 12/21/2006, 12:58 PM

Is any of the old finish left? If not go with the poly.. use OIL based if you used oil stain... and water for water based.

The poly will give the stand a nice tonal quality (esp if it is oil). The lacquer will not and is not as durable.

Bergovoy · 12/21/2006, 04:15 PM

LAcquer is very durable, but you would need a bunch of coats. I am not familiar with the applying lacquer by hand. I have always sprayed it though.

I agree though that urathane will be extermely durable, maybe even more so, because of it is a thicker product. but you the type of stress or wear is not the same as what alacquered surface would get.
The finish of hte urathane does add depth, but you will not see it as much on darker colored stains.

Bottom line is the finish is up to you. Do you have other furnishing around that area? Are they stained and what type of clear coat is on them?

What do you like personally, a nice bartop type of finish, or something thinner and lighter??

Also, I would reccomend the crystal clear or water clear finish. Most everything else, especially lacqer will have a yellow (ish) hue to it and will get more yellow with time.

The water clear finish will not yellow, and shows thetrue color of the stain.

Good luck, let us know what you choose, and send pictures...

12/20/2006, 07:20 AM	#1
REMoses Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 84	Problems staining tank stand. Hey Everyone! I stained my tank stand yesterday with a Minwax stain. Right now it is still tacky and it is over 24 hours since I applied the stain. The tank was previously stained and laquered. I used fine grit sand paper and sanded the entire stand. I went down to the bare wood in some areas and in others I tried to take off the top coat of laquer. Is the stain still tacky b/c I did not sand down enough? I plan on putting a coat or two of poly on this stand. Will I have a problem since it was previously laquered? ANY help would be greatly appreciated!! REMoses

12/20/2006, 10:38 PM	#2
Bergovoy Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Monrovia, CA Posts: 2,163	Hello, Not sure what minwax product you used, but it sounds like you used one that had a stain and sealar in one. If the stand was previously sealed, then a new sealar will not soak in and will tend to sit on top and take forever to dry. I would get some lacquer thinner and wipe down everything you did, and basically start over. If the material you used does not dry, and you put something on top of it, it will wrinkle and you will end up having to stip it off with a different material, and that would be bad... If ypou want to restain the wood, you will have to stripwhatever was onthere to begin with, use a stripper, then sand like crazy. Some times it is just better to Paint... Good luck Let me know what happens. bill

12/20/2006, 11:04 PM	#3
REMoses Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 84	Thanks for the reply Bill! No, I definately only used stain. It is now about 48 hours into drying and I believe it is as good as it is going to get. A consideration that I left out was the cold weather. I had left the window open for ventilation and temperatures were just above freezing overnight, so I closed up everything and plugged in a heater/fan. Now things look more like I would expect them to look. The areas where I sanded to bare wood have the dull finish you would expect from staining a piece of wood. The areas where I tried to remove the lacquer but did not sand all the way down to the wood (i.e. removing the previous stain) has a more glossy look. I am still going to let it stand and possibly try to poly it tomorrow. I am concerned that the glossy areas may be a problem. The areas are dry to the touch but just not the same sheen as the other "bare" areas. Will this cause a problem if I apply poly the way it is?

12/21/2006, 05:09 AM	#4
Bergovoy Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Monrovia, CA Posts: 2,163	The finish should be abosulutely dry before you put anyting on top of it. If you took a clean rag, could you wipe anything off/?? And if you do, are you taking hte color off withit? If the color is into the wood, just wipe away the excess. Like I said in the first message, if you did not take the finish off the wood before putting on thet stain, thenteh stain will just sit on top of the wood and not soak in. that will be a problem. But if it eventually drys, you mmay just get lucky. If there is a an area that has the shinier surface on the sides or the back or some small isolated are for you to experiment on, that would e the bestway to try applying the polyurathane, (is htat what you are using?) i would also suggest for you to use a satin finish or semi-gloss. Do not use a Gloss finish. The gloss finish will highlige\t and espose any and everry surface scrathc, sanding mark, dust, lint, etc. Also, a tip for applying the clear coat is to thin it a drop with paint thinner, (if you are using solvent based material), then use a small cigar type of roller to roll it on first, then use a 'bristle' brush, (the expensive type, sorry but it is worth it). When yo ugo over it witht the brush, just use as few strokes as possible. if it is flat surface, start at the bottom and pull the brush upwards and you are done. If it is a door or other thing that has nooks and crannies, then right after you use the roller, dab the brush into all the corners and crevises, then again pull the brus in one direction. Use VERY VERY VERY thin coats of clear coat. Two coast will definately look ten thousand times better then thick coats. Also, if you have not bought the amterial yet, There is a brand that sells crystal clear finish. or water clear finish. That material is not yellow and it will not yellow. Defuinately a far better looking product. I have not tried the water based material,but have heard good things abou tthem. Escept that applying them is different then the solfent base stuff. Also, since the brushes are expensive, and if you do not finish in one day, as in if you apply two coats, wrap the bush in plastic wrap, use a lot to geep the air out, and then you can put the whole thing in the fridge or freezer Have fun

12/21/2006, 07:07 AM	#5
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Stain is just that "stain" it is meant to soak into the poors of the wood. You can not stain over a finish (as bill has also explained). You can use "gel stain" to some degree as it is more like paint than stain. As has been mentioned... going down to bare wood is your best bet. It is hard to party sand and spot finish anything like this. I myself like hand rubbed finishes and would never touch stain or poly with a brush

12/21/2006, 08:33 AM	#6
Bergovoy Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Monrovia, CA Posts: 2,163	I agree with bean. Natural wood is and has its own color. Why someone would buy oak and stain it cherry Iwill never know. But to stain properly needs to be stripped, chemically, they bleached to remove all color. Then color away. Almost like dying your hair... Um, not that I would know about that ....

12/21/2006, 08:51 AM	#7
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	HEY! I am trying to stain poplar cherry Poplar carcass with cherry face frames... I tried to build a cabinent cheap and am now paying the price!

12/21/2006, 09:28 AM	#8
cubber Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 311	I agree with the whole why stain perfectly good wood idea. I prefer just to protect it with a poly finish like the minwax polycrylic. That stuff drys so fast! My whole house is pine and I love the natural look, plus as it ages the wood gets darker. I just recently did my new tank stand I am building with the polycrylic and it came out great! It is an oak stand and 3 coats of the polycrylic really brought out the true color of the wood. You can check out my build thread here Also you did not specify if the products you were using are water or oil based. You have to be careful when mixing the two because you can have problems. I prefer to stick with water based products myself, easier cleanup!

12/21/2006, 09:40 AM	#9
Bergovoy Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Monrovia, CA Posts: 2,163	Okay, I can agree to staining PINE, yuck... j/k Talk about your log cabin... And bean, your poplar is going to be very popular...

12/21/2006, 09:46 AM	#10
cubber Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 311	Poplar has a nice look to it as well, especially if you get some with some color in it. I have seen some nice poplar boards with some salmon coloring to it. Personally I can't see how someone can take a beautiful peice of wood and paint it white or any other color for that matter.

12/21/2006, 10:13 AM	#11
cstires Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Orlando, Florida Posts: 1,143	I just went through this experience and I can tell you that staining poplar is a royal PITA!!! I ended up painting mine because nothing I did would create the finish that I wanted! The thicker the coat of stain you put on, will greatly vary the drying time. It should take long at all if you applied, then let stand for 5-15mins, and then wiped off. But if you didn't wipe any off, then it could take a while to dry...

12/21/2006, 10:17 AM	#12
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	You have to wipe the stain off... it is not paint That is the biggest mistake people make (allowing the stain to layer and dry like paint). I prefer the oil based products and the amber they give. I do not like the unnatural (to me) blue hue that the water base products have. I may have to use analine dye to stain the poplar when trying to get it to match the cherry... time will tell as this has to be finished by new years (guests coming).

12/21/2006, 12:08 PM	#13
REMoses Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Silver Spring, MD Posts: 84	Ok, I did the dry paper towel test and I am happy to say that the stain is dry. It is interesting in that the wood I am trying to stain is most likely poplar. I am not sure but I think it is it. The stand was custom made for me about 10 years ago and I do not recollect the type of wood. I will say that it was NOT easy to stain. There were areas where I went down to the bare wood and it still took its sweet time soaking up the stain. In those areas I did apply the stain like paint and put on a thicker coat, but I went back about 15 mins later and wiped it off. I did this about 3 times till it had blended perfectly with the rest of the stand. Now the really big question (and hopefully the last): Do I use Poly or Lacquer to finsh it? I was told that it originally had lacquer. Should I stick with this or should I now take the opportunity to apply Poly? When I originally started the project, the salesperson suggested a WATCO Clear Lacquer so I have a small can of that but I was thinking Poly may be better. If indeed I have a disaster in the making, will I minimize the damage by using the stuff that was on there before or does it really make a difference at this point? I also just wanted to say that everyone on this board has been really helpful. I appreciate all the comments and it makes me feel that I am not in this alone. I truly appreciate the help! REMoses

12/21/2006, 12:58 PM	#14
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Is any of the old finish left? If not go with the poly.. use OIL based if you used oil stain... and water for water based. The poly will give the stand a nice tonal quality (esp if it is oil). The lacquer will not and is not as durable.

12/21/2006, 04:15 PM	#15
Bergovoy Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Monrovia, CA Posts: 2,163	LAcquer is very durable, but you would need a bunch of coats. I am not familiar with the applying lacquer by hand. I have always sprayed it though. I agree though that urathane will be extermely durable, maybe even more so, because of it is a thicker product. but you the type of stress or wear is not the same as what alacquered surface would get. The finish of hte urathane does add depth, but you will not see it as much on darker colored stains. Bottom line is the finish is up to you. Do you have other furnishing around that area? Are they stained and what type of clear coat is on them? What do you like personally, a nice bartop type of finish, or something thinner and lighter?? Also, I would reccomend the crystal clear or water clear finish. Most everything else, especially lacqer will have a yellow (ish) hue to it and will get more yellow with time. The water clear finish will not yellow, and shows thetrue color of the stain. Good luck, let us know what you choose, and send pictures...