New EcoTech Vectra, AI Hydra, and the future of Apex Integration

TerenceF · 10/08/2015, 07:43 PM

OK, there has been a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation on various forums regarding this topic. The time has come to bring some clarity, straight from Neptune Systems.

Apex Ready is a standard we created by which, through various means, we have created a path for interactivity between our Apex System and many other aquarium products on the market. There are basically four different methods to get that interactivity:

- 0-10V control - we did not invent this, but it is a reliable standard. When a company makes their products compatible with this for variable speed pumps, dimming of lights, etc. and then submits for official Apex Ready certification we test these products to confirm their adapters work as they should to make it easy on the customers and that the device does what it should.

- Digital RS-232 control via VDM port - This is at this time only for lighting control, but it is not limited only to that. At the moment the original AI-Sol lights, the lights from Acan Lighting, and those from ZetLight conform to this standard. In addition to multi-channel dimming, clouds and lightning effects can be implemented.

- AWM - AI Wireless control Module - Due to the popularity of the AI Sol Lights in the past, we spent the engineering time and dollars and worked with AI to develop a module for controlling the Hydra lights when they came out. AI is now abandoning this type of control with their new lights and following the Prime by having on board WiFi. We are currently trying to work with them to control these new lights with the Apex. This would cost us engineering time and money and since it will not require a module to make this feature work, there will not be any revenue to off-set that work. We know it is important for our users to be able to control all of the major products out there and we are committed to that. For now, the ball is in their court to provide us with the information necessary to make that happen for our users.

- WXM - EcoTech Wireless Module - This was originally developed by us to operate the VorTech pumps and was later expanded to work with the Radion lights as well. In terms of the Vectra, and as was stated in other threads by myself, we have discussed the enabling of control of the Vectra with EcoTech Marine at MACNA and are awaiting them making the necessary small changes to make that happen for our users. Once they do that we will immediately work to make that surfaced in the Apex via a firmware update so that our users with WXM (or those that want to buy one) can control all their EcoTech products (as well as other companies products) from one interface.

I would like to make it extremely crystal clear that Neptune Systems is committed to providing aquarium owners what they have asked for (89% in a recent RB survey) - a single place from which to control all their aquarium gear. This does not mean that they would not have point solutions from various manufacturers, but rather that their Apex continues to be their universal remote control and monitoring interface.

One of the things that makes it hard to give customers complete control is that many times smaller manufacturers do not have the volume of sales that allow us to do custom work like the modules above in order to get connected to the Apex. We just cannot expend that much Engineering time and cost. This is where standards come in. At this point, we see WiFi (802.11) as the winning method for connectivity in products that are now coming to market.

To that end I announced at MACNA a new initiative for Neptune Systems. That is, a universal standard we coining IoA or Internet of Aquariums. With this standard, now even the smallest, newest lighting, pump or other product manufacturer can come to market with a product that is immediately Apex Ready right out of the box. We are currently working on that standard with a couple of manufacturers and will be announcing more on this at a later date.

So, once again to summarize and bring it back relative to this thread and the comments here thus far:

1. We are ready to do the Vectra support as soon as it is enabled in the Vectra driver.

2. We are committed as a company to continue to provide support for the control of 3rd party products and expanding that more than ever before.

3. The fact that we have products ourselves that may compete with some of those same 3rd party products is not an issue. As an example, Apple competes with Logitech with their mouse. They now compete with many companies with the release of their "pencil". But they still provide a way for all of those products to work. This is our model going forward.

I will try and answer your questions as completely as possible, but please understand that many questions cannot be answered to their fullest if they dig too deeply into future product plans or direction.

TerenceF · 10/08/2015, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmatt56

So what has to happen to allow vendors like Maxspect to make gyre Apex Ready without buying a $100 interface for each pump?

The reason there is an expensive interface option for these pumps is that Maxspect mistakenly did not design Apex Ready into the pump from the outset. Once this pump came to market it was immediately apparent that this was an oversight and CoralVue designed a custom interface to make it happen. Had Maxspect designed for the 0-10V or VDM interface in the original design, it may not have cost anything to have four of them connected to an Apex via the built in vspd1-4 ports.

TerenceF · 10/08/2015, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eastamherstbias

This thread is crazy entertaining.

Terence- Your existing products can’t even function unless you own an Apex controller (wav, dos, cor), are there any plans to make them capable with other platforms?

If the answer is no, I think it’s pretty clear where your prerogatives are with this whole IoA fodder.

Please read back through my original post and you will see my analogy to Apple. Apple has a product called the "Pencil" that they just released. This product competes with a wide variety of stylus and tablet solutions on the market. Apple is not going to quit supporting those other products in their computers/tablets/OS, nor will they likely make their Pencil work on other platforms.

This is the same approach we are taking with the Apex, our own products, and the IoA standard we are working on.

andrek787 · 10/08/2015, 08:43 PM

Terrance, but could we not make an argument that it was actually oversight on Neptune's part not to add PWM control signal capability to VDM? Both Archon and ReefAngel now offer that option.

Jebao first generation pumps readily accepted 0-10v control via the interface, but Jebao chose to not to use that same design in their second generation DCT pump as did Maxspect.

It appears that right now if we want to control 4 Gyres with an APEX, we have to spend $500 dollars on ICE-CAP interfaces and another $200 on VDM modules.
If Neptune would release a PWM capable version of VDM module that cost to us would be much less.

TerenceF · 10/08/2015, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrek787

Terrance, but could we not make an argument that it was actually oversight on Neptune's part not to add PWM control signal capability to VDM? Both Archon and ReefAngel now offer that option.

I guess you could make that argument but there has never been a large enough volume of PWM products to make us see that as something that should happen. Also, there are too many variables as well.

On the other hand there was a published method for interconnectivity when the Gyre was being developed. It would have been far better for all the customers of that product if that were baked in. If they had wanted a custom interface or PWM control we might have considered it but we were never contacted.

Can you control, out of the box without DIY mods, a gyre with an Archon or Reef Angel? If so, awesome. Just not something on our radar right now.

Allentown · 10/13/2015, 10:09 PM

People can argue that you should avoid apex products if there are issues with making them work with product manufacturer equipment.

My position is we should probably avoid other manufacturers equipment if they aren't going to bother working with Neptune to make them apex compatible. The controller is the heart of a system and the Apex makes the best controller system on the market.

Let's see how long it takes equipment manufacturers to come around when no one buys their stuff.

nornicle · 11/03/2015, 11:39 PM

Hi there,

is WXM module compatibility with the Vectra a forgone conclusion, just a matter of time?

I have just bought an APEX controller, but I am running a Vectra M1 return pump, and it's irritating that I can't integrate it for a 'one touch' feed mode, as I plan to run the pump quite strongly and don't want food to just disappear into the overflow...

TerenceF · 11/06/2015, 03:29 AM

nornicle, at MACNA and over the last many weeks we have reached out on numerous occasions to EcoTech Marine in order to establish for our customers if they (EcoTech) were going to enable this feature in their Vectra product line. At this point the short answer is "we don't know". We have no commitment from EcoTech whatsoever not only as to when it might be done, but as well if it will even be done at all. We are ready to make any necessary changes on our end to give this functionality to you, however without their cooperation it cannot happen.

We will continue to try and work with them to make this happen and we encourage you to let your voice be heard as well.

Settings · 11/08/2015, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerenceF

nornicle, at MACNA and over the last many weeks we have reached out on numerous occasions to EcoTech Marine in order to establish for our customers if they (EcoTech) were going to enable this feature in their Vectra product line. At this point the short answer is "we don't know". We have no commitment from EcoTech whatsoever not only as to when it might be done, but as well if it will even be done at all. We are ready to make any necessary changes on our end to give this functionality to you, however without their cooperation it cannot happen.

We will continue to try and work with them to make this happen and we encourage you to let your voice be heard as well.

I own both Apex products and ETM. The Apex controls everything in my current aquarium. I'm currently building a new system and all ETM products have fallen off my purchase lists because they won't work with the brain (Apex) of the new system.
Now if only Neptune would release a cable to work with other DC pumps on the market, that would be very helpful. But I will purchase their DC pump when it makes it to market.

kodo28 · 04/23/2016, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TerenceF

nornicle, at MACNA and over the last many weeks we have reached out on numerous occasions to EcoTech Marine in order to establish for our customers if they (EcoTech) were going to enable this feature in their Vectra product line. At this point the short answer is "we don't know". We have no commitment from EcoTech whatsoever not only as to when it might be done, but as well if it will even be done at all. We are ready to make any necessary changes on our end to give this functionality to you, however without their cooperation it cannot happen.

We will continue to try and work with them to make this happen and we encourage you to let your voice be heard as well.

Do we have any news about this ?

slief · 04/24/2016, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kodo28

Do we have any news about this ?

I asked yesterday at RAP and unfortunately there is no news.. Seems at this point that is out of Neptunes control. The ball is in Ecotechs court and I wouldn't hold my breath.

bradjc · 01/09/2017, 11:50 AM

So I'm getting some AI Hydra TwentySixes to replace my AI Sols. I'm getting the non-HD version and having a hard time finding the AWM module. I'm being told it is discontinued. Is there something else to replace it? I'd actually prefer Apex control than moving to the HD versions but if I can't get the AWM I'm not sure.

Elricsfate · 01/11/2017, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nornicle

Hi there,

is WXM module compatibility with the Vectra a forgone conclusion, just a matter of time?

I have just bought an APEX controller, but I am running a Vectra M1 return pump, and it's irritating that I can't integrate it for a 'one touch' feed mode, as I plan to run the pump quite strongly and don't want food to just disappear into the overflow...

Why can't you plug the pump into the 832 and turn off that outlet with the feed mode button? I do.

azsoccerpop · 01/12/2017, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradjc

So I'm getting some AI Hydra TwentySixes to replace my AI Sols. I'm getting the non-HD version and having a hard time finding the AWM module. I'm being told it is discontinued. Is there something else to replace it? I'd actually prefer Apex control than moving to the HD versions but if I can't get the AWM I'm not sure.

AWM is being discontinued? Is this confirmed? That eliminates AI unless because of the merger they will be using the WXM somehow?

azsoccerpop · 04/27/2017, 01:04 PM

Sorry to revive an old thread but i just dont understand why Ecotech and Neptune stopped playing together. I am in the market for a pump and have 3 Radions and 3 Vortechs all doing very well with the WXM. What is missing in the Vectra drive that is preventing integration? I sent an email to their support and got the following:"Thank you for contacting EcoTech Marine. The Vectra is the only ETM component that will not be compatible with the APEX system. At this time, we have no information if/when it would ever be compatible." Seriously folks can we all just get along? Almost worse is the promise of the COR. Where is that vaporware? As of right now the only cost effective Pump is the Varios using 0-10v VDM. Waveline has fallen off the map. Considering the return is a pretty critical part of the system I would think we would have more options by now. We can pretty much measure or control everything else. Frustrating and sad.

ldc3000 · 04/27/2017, 09:10 PM

While I would like to see integration between the Apex and the Vectra, the COR finally coming to market would make forget about it. I do worry that the COR maybe under powered for a larger system, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

azsoccerpop · 04/28/2017, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ldc3000

While I would like to see integration between the Apex and the Vectra, the COR finally coming to market would make forget about it. I do worry that the COR maybe under powered for a larger system, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

The COR has been promised for so long now I am almost over it. Does anyone know if it will require 1link module for classic?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BlueRoofTang · 05/10/2017, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elricsfate

Why can't you plug the pump into the 832 and turn off that outlet with the feed mode button? I do.

1) If you use the Vectra pump for a closed loop pump, it would be nice to be able to change the wave functions.

2) I have a Vectra return in my basement. When I just turn it off during feed mode, I have a lot of piping that drains down to the pump. It makes a lot of noise. On startup, it takes a while to fill all that 1.5" piping. If I could control the pump speed, I could just turn it down during feed mode, so that the piping stayed full and/or just barely had any flow. Then I wouldn't get all the gurgling noises on stop and startups, as well as a faster startup time.

BlueRoofTang · 05/10/2017, 06:30 PM

Maybe we should all direct many of these Vectra questions to the Ecotech guys, since the ball is in their court. Perhaps they need to know the demand for this. Personally, I like some of the ecotech products, but apex simply stomps them into the dirt on user interface, especially with Fusion. Controlling my radions with Ecotech Live is finicky. Controlling the vortechs with the buttons on them is HORRIBLE!!!

They need to make this happen. I am using a Vectra for return now, but I promise that if it goes out, and there's not an option to use it with the apex, I'll be looking for cheaper options.

shakaloha · 05/16/2017, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRoofTang

Maybe we should all direct many of these Vectra questions to the Ecotech guys, since the ball is in their court. Perhaps they need to know the demand for this. Personally, I like some of the ecotech products, but apex simply stomps them into the dirt on user interface, especially with Fusion. Controlling my radions with Ecotech Live is finicky. Controlling the vortechs with the buttons on them is HORRIBLE!!!

They need to make this happen. I am using a Vectra for return now, but I promise that if it goes out, and there's not an option to use it with the apex, I'll be looking for cheaper options.

I've been enjoying my Varios return w/0-10v control. I can't really speak to it's longevity since it's only been up a month, but we shall see...

azwldkat · 08/29/2017, 03:07 PM

Just got my vectra M1 a week ago and immediately learned of it not working with my apex and I was none to pleased ... I emailed ecotech today and they made it clear that there are no plans to allow this! Very annoying that they want to now pick and choose with no disclaimer to the customer ....

"Thank you for contacting EcoTech Marine. At this time, there are no plans to make the Vectras compatible with the Apex. If you would like to control the pump wirelessly, you will need a Reeflink.

Thanks,

JR Toth
Customer Service Agent"

10/08/2015, 07:43 PM	#1
TerenceF Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 275	New EcoTech Vectra, AI Hydra, and the future of Apex Integration OK, there has been a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation on various forums regarding this topic. The time has come to bring some clarity, straight from Neptune Systems. Apex Ready is a standard we created by which, through various means, we have created a path for interactivity between our Apex System and many other aquarium products on the market. There are basically four different methods to get that interactivity: - 0-10V control - we did not invent this, but it is a reliable standard. When a company makes their products compatible with this for variable speed pumps, dimming of lights, etc. and then submits for official Apex Ready certification we test these products to confirm their adapters work as they should to make it easy on the customers and that the device does what it should. - Digital RS-232 control via VDM port - This is at this time only for lighting control, but it is not limited only to that. At the moment the original AI-Sol lights, the lights from Acan Lighting, and those from ZetLight conform to this standard. In addition to multi-channel dimming, clouds and lightning effects can be implemented. - AWM - AI Wireless control Module - Due to the popularity of the AI Sol Lights in the past, we spent the engineering time and dollars and worked with AI to develop a module for controlling the Hydra lights when they came out. AI is now abandoning this type of control with their new lights and following the Prime by having on board WiFi. We are currently trying to work with them to control these new lights with the Apex. This would cost us engineering time and money and since it will not require a module to make this feature work, there will not be any revenue to off-set that work. We know it is important for our users to be able to control all of the major products out there and we are committed to that. For now, the ball is in their court to provide us with the information necessary to make that happen for our users. - WXM - EcoTech Wireless Module - This was originally developed by us to operate the VorTech pumps and was later expanded to work with the Radion lights as well. In terms of the Vectra, and as was stated in other threads by myself, we have discussed the enabling of control of the Vectra with EcoTech Marine at MACNA and are awaiting them making the necessary small changes to make that happen for our users. Once they do that we will immediately work to make that surfaced in the Apex via a firmware update so that our users with WXM (or those that want to buy one) can control all their EcoTech products (as well as other companies products) from one interface. I would like to make it extremely crystal clear that Neptune Systems is committed to providing aquarium owners what they have asked for (89% in a recent RB survey) - a single place from which to control all their aquarium gear. This does not mean that they would not have point solutions from various manufacturers, but rather that their Apex continues to be their universal remote control and monitoring interface. One of the things that makes it hard to give customers complete control is that many times smaller manufacturers do not have the volume of sales that allow us to do custom work like the modules above in order to get connected to the Apex. We just cannot expend that much Engineering time and cost. This is where standards come in. At this point, we see WiFi (802.11) as the winning method for connectivity in products that are now coming to market. To that end I announced at MACNA a new initiative for Neptune Systems. That is, a universal standard we coining IoA or Internet of Aquariums. With this standard, now even the smallest, newest lighting, pump or other product manufacturer can come to market with a product that is immediately Apex Ready right out of the box. We are currently working on that standard with a couple of manufacturers and will be announcing more on this at a later date. So, once again to summarize and bring it back relative to this thread and the comments here thus far: 1. We are ready to do the Vectra support as soon as it is enabled in the Vectra driver. 2. We are committed as a company to continue to provide support for the control of 3rd party products and expanding that more than ever before. 3. The fact that we have products ourselves that may compete with some of those same 3rd party products is not an issue. As an example, Apple competes with Logitech with their mouse. They now compete with many companies with the release of their "pencil". But they still provide a way for all of those products to work. This is our model going forward. I will try and answer your questions as completely as possible, but please understand that many questions cannot be answered to their fullest if they dig too deeply into future product plans or direction. __________________ Terence Fugazzi :: VP Sales and Marketing :: Neptune Systems Come on over and check out the Neptune Systems Community Forum for the latest tricks, tips, and support help with your Apex AquaController. http://forum.neptunesystems.com

10/08/2015, 08:43 PM	#4
andrek787 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2015 Location: Albuquerque, NM Posts: 378	Terrance, but could we not make an argument that it was actually oversight on Neptune's part not to add PWM control signal capability to VDM? Both Archon and ReefAngel now offer that option. Jebao first generation pumps readily accepted 0-10v control via the interface, but Jebao chose to not to use that same design in their second generation DCT pump as did Maxspect. It appears that right now if we want to control 4 Gyres with an APEX, we have to spend $500 dollars on ICE-CAP interfaces and another $200 on VDM modules. If Neptune would release a PWM capable version of VDM module that cost to us would be much less. __________________ SCA starphire 150 gallon, custom Advanced Acrylics 50g sump, 3 x Hydra52 Hybrids, 2 x Gyre xf-150, 2 x Kessil A150 6700k fuge lights, ATI 250is Skimmer, Skimz RR-153 bio-pellet, Kore 5th Doser

10/13/2015, 10:09 PM	#6
Allentown Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Augusta, Ga Posts: 975	People can argue that you should avoid apex products if there are issues with making them work with product manufacturer equipment. My position is we should probably avoid other manufacturers equipment if they aren't going to bother working with Neptune to make them apex compatible. The controller is the heart of a system and the Apex makes the best controller system on the market. Let's see how long it takes equipment manufacturers to come around when no one buys their stuff. __________________ NEW Build: 225g 72x27x27 Tigger Emerald 39 Sump, ConeS CO-3, 3xHydra 52, BRS 2 part dosers, Vortech MP-40 QD Gyre XF150, Neptune Wav x2, 2x Jaebo RW-4, SMR-1, MR-1

11/06/2015, 03:29 AM	#8
TerenceF Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Posts: 275	nornicle, at MACNA and over the last many weeks we have reached out on numerous occasions to EcoTech Marine in order to establish for our customers if they (EcoTech) were going to enable this feature in their Vectra product line. At this point the short answer is "we don't know". We have no commitment from EcoTech whatsoever not only as to when it might be done, but as well if it will even be done at all. We are ready to make any necessary changes on our end to give this functionality to you, however without their cooperation it cannot happen. We will continue to try and work with them to make this happen and we encourage you to let your voice be heard as well. __________________ Terence Fugazzi :: VP Sales and Marketing :: Neptune Systems Come on over and check out the Neptune Systems Community Forum for the latest tricks, tips, and support help with your Apex AquaController. http://forum.neptunesystems.com

08/29/2017, 03:07 PM	#21
azwldkat Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Maryland Posts: 7	Super annoyed that my M1 will not work with apex! Just got my vectra M1 a week ago and immediately learned of it not working with my apex and I was none to pleased ... I emailed ecotech today and they made it clear that there are no plans to allow this! Very annoying that they want to now pick and choose with no disclaimer to the customer .... "Thank you for contacting EcoTech Marine. At this time, there are no plans to make the Vectras compatible with the Apex. If you would like to control the pump wirelessly, you will need a Reeflink. Thanks, JR Toth Customer Service Agent" __________________ 93g Cube 30x30x24 Soft Corals & Fish, Radion G3 Pro, Vortech MP40wQD, Ecotech Vectra M1 Vertex Omega 180i, Apex Neptune Fusion Current Tank Info: 93 Gallon Rimless Cube - Mixed Reef

11/03/2015, 11:39 PM	#7
nornicle Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 53	Hi there, is WXM module compatibility with the Vectra a forgone conclusion, just a matter of time? I have just bought an APEX controller, but I am running a Vectra M1 return pump, and it's irritating that I can't integrate it for a 'one touch' feed mode, as I plan to run the pump quite strongly and don't want food to just disappear into the overflow...

01/09/2017, 11:50 AM	#12
bradjc Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 68	So I'm getting some AI Hydra TwentySixes to replace my AI Sols. I'm getting the non-HD version and having a hard time finding the AWM module. I'm being told it is discontinued. Is there something else to replace it? I'd actually prefer Apex control than moving to the HD versions but if I can't get the AWM I'm not sure.

04/27/2017, 01:04 PM	#15
azsoccerpop Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Gilbert, Az Posts: 232	Sorry to revive an old thread but i just dont understand why Ecotech and Neptune stopped playing together. I am in the market for a pump and have 3 Radions and 3 Vortechs all doing very well with the WXM. What is missing in the Vectra drive that is preventing integration? I sent an email to their support and got the following:"Thank you for contacting EcoTech Marine. The Vectra is the only ETM component that will not be compatible with the APEX system. At this time, we have no information if/when it would ever be compatible." Seriously folks can we all just get along? Almost worse is the promise of the COR. Where is that vaporware? As of right now the only cost effective Pump is the Varios using 0-10v VDM. Waveline has fallen off the map. Considering the return is a pretty critical part of the system I would think we would have more options by now. We can pretty much measure or control everything else. Frustrating and sad.

04/27/2017, 09:10 PM	#16
ldc3000 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Greensboro Posts: 37	While I would like to see integration between the Apex and the Vectra, the COR finally coming to market would make forget about it. I do worry that the COR maybe under powered for a larger system, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

05/10/2017, 06:30 PM	#19
BlueRoofTang Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2015 Posts: 186	Maybe we should all direct many of these Vectra questions to the Ecotech guys, since the ball is in their court. Perhaps they need to know the demand for this. Personally, I like some of the ecotech products, but apex simply stomps them into the dirt on user interface, especially with Fusion. Controlling my radions with Ecotech Live is finicky. Controlling the vortechs with the buttons on them is HORRIBLE!!! They need to make this happen. I am using a Vectra for return now, but I promise that if it goes out, and there's not an option to use it with the apex, I'll be looking for cheaper options.