Copper or Chloroquine Phosphate for Quarantine?

[Ginger bay]

Many LFS used copper to treat their incoming fishes as well as leave fishes in a system with copper solution. Then a lot of hobbyists are using CP to treat their incoming fishes during quarantine. What is your preference and why?

[ThRoewer]

I like neither:

- Copper because it is toxic for the fish, complicated (2 tests a day and redosing) and also not the most effective against the only parasite I would even consider it: Amyloodinium.

- CP is highly effective against Amyloodinium and Brooklynella but I don't like the idea of running my QT for an extended time without a skimmer or sufficient light. Another issue is that you can't measure it's concentration in the tank which makes it a bit of a gamble.
Also it has some unwanted side effects like fish stopping to eat. Finally, since I have pipefish it isn't suitable for all my fish.

I rather do prophylactic formalin dips before the fish go into QT and during TTM. And if I suspect velvet I dose CP in the TTM tanks (except when handling pipefish).

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

I like neither:

- Copper because it is toxic for the fish, complicated (2 tests a day and redosing) and also not the most effective against the only parasite I would even consider it: Amyloodinium.

- CP is highly effective against Amyloodinium and Brooklynella but I don't like the idea of running my QT for an extended time without a skimmer or sufficient light. Another issue is that you can't measure it's concentration in the tank which makes it a bit of a gamble.
Also it has some unwanted side effects like fish stopping to eat. Finally, since I have pipefish it isn't suitable for all my fish.

I rather do prophylactic formalin dips before the fish go into QT and during TTM. And if I suspect velvet I dose CP in the TTM tanks (except when handling pipefish).

I agree in all regards. Furthermore, I want to know if an LFS is running copper as it can mask parasites if not at a therapeutic dose.

[Dmorty217]

To your question of one or the other... Chloroquine Phosphate. If your just trying to treat for ich then Tank Transfer Method is best

[snorvich]

But be careful about assuming the CP will eliminate ich in 30 days. It may or may not do so.

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by snorvich

But be careful about assuming the CP will eliminate ich in 30 days. It may or may not do so.

Actually 2 weeks in a previously sterilized HT should be well enough if you transfer the fish after that period into a disease free holding/display tank. All you really need to do in that case is to make sure all parasites have left the fish and prevent the fish fro being reinfected during the time in the HT.

The longer (and still too short) period is only for treatment in a fish only DT (which I wouldn't advise for numerous reasons) and the fact that there are still encysted stages that may hatch.

I'm thinking about using CP in combination with TTM and formalin dips - as an additional layer of safety against velvet, brook and of course ich.
That way the exposure is short and you can be (pretty) sure enough CP is in the water to be effective. Also 3 days without a skimmer is the most I would feel comfortable with.

[barrysalt]

There is a product out there called Coppersafe, bought online, which is supposedly (as in the name) much easier and safer than straight copper additive. Ihave been using this product in a 1500 gal tank, FOWLR with success so far. However, as pointed out, copper has suppressed appetite in the fish, but the disease (Oodinium) seems to be eliminated. No new outbreaks, no deaths. Fingers crossed.

[barrysalt]

I was also advised from a LFS that Seachem's Cupramine is very safe and very effective. Haven't used it myself--just passing along the info.

[ThRoewer]

All copper treatments - regardless which brand or copper form - still need a thorough monitoring of copper levels with a minimum of 2 tests per day.
And even then you may run into a copper trained/resistant Amyloodinium strain because most importers and LFS use low level copper to suppress disease outbreaks without really extinguishing them.
Also copper does nothing against Brooklynella, one of the more common threats these days.
Alone for those reasons (and there are plenty more) I wouldn't even consider copper a viable option in any case.

[Dmorty217]

Originally Posted by barrysalt

I was also advised from a LFS that Seachem's Cupramine is very safe and very effective. Haven't used it myself--just passing along the info.

Cupramine is effective if used properly. So slowly ramping up the concentration and not using things like water conditioner. CP doesn't effect the fish as negatively as Cupramine or copper IMO as far as loss of appetite and CP is more forgiving. I have read books that say CP for 2 weeks and ich is gone but I personally treat CP for over 30 days just to be safe

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

Actually 2 weeks in a previously sterilized HT should be well enough if you transfer the fish after that period into a disease free holding/display tank. All you really need to do in that case is to make sure all parasites have left the fish and prevent the fish fro being reinfected during the time in the HT.

The longer (and still too short) period is only for treatment in a fish only DT (which I wouldn't advise for numerous reasons) and the fact that there are still encysted stages that may hatch.

I'm thinking about using CP in combination with TTM and formalin dips - as an additional layer of safety against velvet, brook and of course ich.
That way the exposure is short and you can be (pretty) sure enough CP is in the water to be effective. Also 3 days without a skimmer is the most I would feel comfortable with.

That assumes that ich acts in the presence of CP as it does when it is not present. All studies involving CP focus on treating velvet. I would be skeptical of assuming this in the case of ich.

[ThRoewer]

That's why I would only use it in combination with TTM or as a targeted treatment of velvet.

Though if it is at all effective against off-fish ich it will most likely target the tomite and maybe also the protomont stage, in which case it should work.
If it poisons the parasite on the fish it should definitely work.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

That's why I would only use it in combination with TTM or as a targeted treatment of velvet.

Though if it is at all effective against off-fish ich it will most likely target the tomite and maybe also the protomont stage, in which case it should work.
If it poisons the parasite on the fish it should definitely work.

In theory, in the case of velvet, it targets more than one stage of the parasite life cycle. In the case of ich, I am not convinced. Many people use it to combat ich but in my opinion that is less than a sure thing due to the non-deterministic issues associated with the back end of the life cycle, and the potential for the front end of the life cycle being disrupted in the presence of copper or CP.

[maddhugan]

Originally Posted by snorvich

In theory, in the case of velvet, it targets more than one stage of the parasite life cycle. In the case of ich, I am not convinced. Many people use it to combat ich but in my opinion that is less than a sure thing due to the non-deterministic issues associated with the back end of the life cycle, and the potential for the front end of the life cycle being disrupted in the presence of copper or CP.

CP never worked for Marine Ich for me. The Ich always came back even after a slight over dose of CP in a bare bottom tank for more than 60 days. Seems like Ich was able to complete its life cycle even in the presence of CP IN THE Water (slightly more than the recommended dosage). Copper did the trick but sometimes it kills some of the fish even before it kills the ich.

I think TTM is awesome/Solid foolproof treatment for ich(if done correctly without polluting the water by feeding, etc).
Will try CP for Brook if I encounter in future. does CP work for Brook?

Never had velvet problem before, but Usually see velvet often.
I'm a retailer and these are just my anecdotal evidence based on my observations and there are no studies to support it.

[scooter31707]

I don't use cooper at all. I only use CP if needed for velvet. TTM for ich along with Formalin dips upon arrival and after TTM.

[crav]

Originally Posted by scooter31707

I don't use cooper at all. I only use CP if needed for velvet. TTM for ich along with Formalin dips upon arrival and after TTM.

How do you dispose of the formalin water after use? It's not okay to go on the drain.

[scooter31707]

Originally Posted by crav

How do you dispose of the formalin water after use? It's not okay to go on the drain.

Flowerbed for the weeds. Works great.

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by maddhugan

...

I think TTM is awesome/Solid foolproof treatment for ich(if done correctly without polluting the water by feeding, etc).
Will try CP for Brook if I encounter in future. does CP work for Brook?

Never had velvet problem before, but Usually see velvet often.
I'm a retailer and these are just my anecdotal evidence based on my observations and there are no studies to support it.

To my knowledge CP does nothing against Brooklynella. The treatment of choice here are formalin baths, ideally before the new fish even gets into the quarantine tank. I do that with every single new fish, no exceptions.

There was one test done that indicates that CP may be an effective treatment against Uronema. But that test was done with double the standard dose.

CP is definitely the treatment of choice against Amyloodinium, unless you have Pipefish, Seahorses or certain wrasses. In that case copper is your only choice.

I found TTM generally too tedious (precise timing, cleaning everything). So far hyposalinity worked best for me and my fish. Once you got the hang of it, it's set and forget. I've even done it successfully in a fully stocked tank after removing all inverts.

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[dominic]

I am using CP as we speak cross my fingers its been 6 weeks with no signs of ick I am probably going to be putting them into display in the next 2 weeks.

[ca1ore]

Haven't had a fish come in with any parasites in the last couple of years, with one exception uronema, and then they were toast in QT despite treatment efforts. I do prefer CP to copper, though I imagine my stock is expired.