Learning/rebuilding from my epic fail

[markalot]

Everything is looking great Matt.

Why are you dropping N so low? Every time I get N below one I lose some color. My goal is 1 to 5. I don't see any color loss so it's probably something else related to N, or maybe I don't feed enough.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by zoa1988

Love this one

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Thanks!

Originally Posted by janci

Chasing numbers never resulted a good way to success.
Love the colours, PE and coral diversity.

Thanks, agreed 100%

Originally Posted by Alex Costa

Hi Matt.

Did ever think about Hanna KH meter?
I use it for years and I like it better than other options, basically because of its accuracy and ease to use.

The corals are looking better and better!

Regards.

Thanks Alex. I’ve never really bothered investing in one. The alk kits give consistent readings..

Originally Posted by markalot

Everything is looking great Matt.

Why are you dropping N so low? Every time I get N below one I lose some color. My goal is 1 to 5. I don't see any color loss so it's probably something else related to N, or maybe I don't feed enough.

Hey Mark. I have been seeing some corals lose colour a bit with n so low, definitely.
It’s just where my cheato has pulled it to- even with p staying up around .18.
Currently I am dosing kno3 to compensate in an effort to raise n and hopefully, maybe get the cheato to pull p down a bit more..
If it doesn’t work, I will reduce the photoperiod of the cheato to get n to come back up a bit..

[reefmutt]

Hey Guys! So over the past month, the combination of reducing food from 10 cubes to 8 per day, along with increased light and photoperiod over my cheato fuge, has completely bottomed out my no3. I reacted by starting kno3 dosing (and reducing photoperiod by a couple hours) and now have n around 5-10 ppm. Which is where I want to keep it.
Po4 has been stubbornly consistent at .17 with Elos High Res. Test kit. That test kit is almost finished and I can’t buy them anymore so I’ll probably be moving to a Hanna egg.. not thrilled but what can I do..
This bottoming out of n really hit my frag tank hard. I had a lot of paling and lots of rtn on frags.. I guess there is less food particles flowing around in there and the corals just couldn’t handle the drop. My display did pretty much ok. Maybe a bit of paling but nothing too serious..
So as of today, I will start extremely conservatively with some LC to try to pull p down to just around .05-.09..
I am doing this because although I have decent growth on many corals, I have many stubborn stagnant ones. I just want to try lowering p to below .1- nothing too crazy..
I am using Brihjtwell’s phosphate e - 5 ml per day to start.
I’m adding it to a part of the system where all the water must first pass through the skimmer chamber and then through a filter sock.
I’ll stay at 5ml per day for a few weeks and see if that amount has any effect at all.. then I’ll increase slightly and wait again.

So I got the chance to take some more photos.. as usual, i am preoccupied with color contrasts and macros.. I’ll get back to wide shots eventually, I’m sure..
One other small change I made was to replace a single blue plus with a pure actinic. So now I have 1 actinic
3 blue plus
2 coral plus
3 150 Ushio 20k
4 AI Primes running mostly blue leds..
I took the following shots with all lights on and set my camera to 9k Kelvin.
The shots came out so accurate that I didn’t bother editing them at all..
Usually I’d warm them up, add some sharpening and crop..
This time I left them completely untouched- straight off the camera.. this is due partially to laziness and partially to lack of time..
Hope you enjoy..


Few more to follow..
Looking at them now, I realize I could definitely make them a bit warmer and better looking.. but.. I wanna go to bed and I still have to take the dog out..


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[reefmutt]

Ok last bunch..
Top down:

Side view:
Again top down:

Side view:

Ok! Done.


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[markalot]

Colors are awesome. Good luck with the LC, it's pretty strong stuff and twice now I've driven PO4 too low with just 2 drops a day.

I'm debating how to properly react to my 0 nitrate and 2 ppb Phosphate.

[reefmutt]

Hey Mark,thanks!
I could be mistaken but I think the stuff you use- phosphate rx is more concentrated than the bright well product..
My system isn’t much bigger than yours- it’s 350g. If you are at 1 drop per day and I started at 5ml.. I better be careful.. I’ll test p often this week and next.

[cFloor]

Very nice Matt!

[Wrangy]

Just stunning Matt! You know what I'd love to see though? Some super porny pics with just the blue led's on! I want you to be silly and get some really groovy shots haha

[illumnae]

I have always had the problem of low nitrates with high phosphates, and have tried many methods to get the nutrient levels in balance. I found that by using lanthanium chloride, I could never "balance" the 2 levels to hit a happy constant for both. What eventually worked for me was to couple kno3 dosing with carbon dosing such that the increased nitrates and carbon ended up bringing the phosphates lower naturally in natural ratios. After I brought both levels to an acceptable ratio (5ppm nitrate, 0.05 phosphate) I switched to dosing TM Bacto Balance to maintain the levels (since Bacto Balance is supposed to add phosphate and nitrate back in addition to carbon dosing to maintain acceptable levels). Unexpectedly, my nitrate dropped to a constant 0.2 and phosphate to a constant 0.01-0.02. Despite these very low levels, my corals have not paled out and still maintain the same level of colouration as when the system was at 5ppm nitrate and 0.05ppm phosphate. I believe that the Bacto Balance is helping the system process the nutrients better such that the corals are still getting enough, but measured levels are very low.

[DiscusHeckel]

Very nice Matt. Elos now sells refill kits as well. I wonder if you can approach some online retailers in the UK to find out if they are prepared to ship to Canada. This test kit is widely available in the UK.

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by cFloor

Very nice Matt!

Originally Posted by Wrangy

Just stunning Matt! You know what I'd love to see though? Some super porny pics with just the blue led's on! I want you to be silly and get some really groovy shots haha

Thanks Dom and Connor!
Dom, I’ll five or a shot.. I’m usually not happy with those shots when I take them but I’ll fine it a try.

Originally Posted by illumnae

I have always had the problem of low nitrates with high phosphates, and have tried many methods to get the nutrient levels in balance. I found that by using lanthanium chloride, I could never "balance" the 2 levels to hit a happy constant for both. What eventually worked for me was to couple kno3 dosing with carbon dosing such that the increased nitrates and carbon ended up bringing the phosphates lower naturally in natural ratios. After I brought both levels to an acceptable ratio (5ppm nitrate, 0.05 phosphate) I switched to dosing TM Bacto Balance to maintain the levels (since Bacto Balance is supposed to add phosphate and nitrate back in addition to carbon dosing to maintain acceptable levels). Unexpectedly, my nitrate dropped to a constant 0.2 and phosphate to a constant 0.01-0.02. Despite these very low levels, my corals have not paled out and still maintain the same level of colouration as when the system was at 5ppm nitrate and 0.05ppm phosphate. I believe that the Bacto Balance is helping the system process the nutrients better such that the corals are still getting enough, but measured levels are very low.

This is very useful information. Thank you. If I can’t get things evened out with this method, I think macro balance will be my last effort.

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Very nice Matt. Elos now sells refill kits as well. I wonder if you can approach some online retailers in the UK to find out if they are prepared to ship to Canada. This test kit is widely available in the UK.

Thanks, Bulent, if I’m going overseas for test kit refills, I will probably also get some bacto balance.

[tripdad]

Your photos are top notch Matt! I'm loving the side view shots especially. Good luck with the nutrient balancing.

[Pife]

Matt you are really out doing yourself. Everything looks great. How is growth with your nutrients being lower?

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by tripdad

Your photos are top notch Matt! I'm loving the side view shots especially. Good luck with the nutrient balancing.

Hey Scott, thanks!

Originally Posted by Pife

Matt you are really out doing yourself. Everything looks great. How is growth with your nutrients being lower?

hey Brandon, thank you, well growth actually stalled a bit when n bottomed out. But generally growth has been decent on many coral, amazing in a handful and slow in many.
Every time I have a nutrient shift, all the corals react. Some previous good growers stop, some stalled corals begin to grow, some do nothing.
Some just grow no matter what and some just don’t grow but I leave them in hopes that one day they will show me why I got them in the first place..
If ever one day I get a stable, balanced nutrient ratio, I hope to have real growth and stability..
one day.. maybe....

[gregkn73]

Matt what balanced ratio do you aim for?

Looking at your photos, I'm pretty sure I want to achieve yours ratio and not what "literature" indicates as the right ratio....:-)

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by gregkn73

Matt what balanced ratio do you aim for?

Looking at your photos, I'm pretty sure I want to achieve yours ratio and not what "literature" indicates as the right ratio....:-)

Thanks, Greg!
I am really aiming for 4-10 ppm n and .04-.08 ppm p
However, if I ever get onto bacto balance, I may let those numbers fall depending on what the corals say about that.

[reefmutt]

Having said that.. I know I’ve had good colors at higher nutrient levels- even with n up to 50 and p close to .25..
I think I’ve seen the best combination of growth and color when n was around 5ppm and p was just under .9
So that’s my target area..
Knowing that elevated nutrient levels have not seriously adversely affected the corals in my tank, I am not in a hurry to change things.. I’ll go slowly..

[Ucantwin]

Matt I always love when you post your pics as it gives me something to strive for. It does seem no matter what nutrient level you have you colors are always great!

I am curious in the last batch of pics you posted, the 3rd pic from the bottom. Does it have bite marks or is it something else?

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by Ucantwin

Matt I always love when you post your pics as it gives me something to strive for. It does seem no matter what nutrient level you have you colors are always great!

I am curious in the last batch of pics you posted, the 3rd pic from the bottom. Does it have bite marks or is it something else?

Thanks! Yeah, as mentioned, it seems different corals will perk up or slow down depending on nutrient levels.. and I’m only shooting the corals that look good!

As for bite marks on that 24k piece.. it is entirely possible as I am certain that I have flatworms. I see real bite marks on some corals and have removed the odd piece that has gotten overrun with them..
but that particular piece doesn’t seem to have any at the moment- it has in the past but they went away. Or got eaten or whatever..
Those marks don’t look like classic bite marks to me.. especially because they are in the top side of the coral and bite marks usually appear on the shaded areas...

[reefmutt]

So, just for fun and interast’s sake, I pulled out my Hanna egg, Elos HR po4 test kit and my Red Sea test kit..
I was curious to see if my single dose of Brightwell Phosphat-e made any difference at all.
24 hours later..
Red Sea gave me .12
Elos gave me .16 (maybe, just maybe down from .17)
Hanna gave me .24...........
So.. who the hell knows...
Since Elos was in the middle, I’m going with that.. unfortunately, that was my last test with that kit.. the reagents are finished.
I need more Elos kits.. I saw that quality marine sells them but I’m not yet sure if they ship to Canada.
I’m going to email them.. and I’ll ask about bacto balance as well..

[DiscusHeckel]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Having said that.. I know I’ve had good colors at higher nutrient levels- even with n up to 50 and p close to .25..
I think I’ve seen the best combination of growth and color when n was around 5ppm and p was just under .9
So that’s my target area..
Knowing that elevated nutrient levels have not seriously adversely affected the corals in my tank, I am not in a hurry to change things.. I’ll go slowly..

Matt, did you mean PO4 when you wrote "P"? P is phosphorus and PO4 is phosphates?

In my tank, coloration also is at its best when NO3 is around 5 ppm and PO4 is below 0.092 mg/L. This is consistent with what Hans-Werner Balling wrote in a thread on a German forum (refer to the image- note that the English writing is done by Google Translate).

[reefmutt]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Matt, did you mean PO4 when you wrote "P"? P is phosphorus and PO4 is phosphates?

In my tank, coloration also is at its best when NO3 is around 5 ppm and PO4 is below 0.092 mg/L. This is consistent with what Hans-Werner Balling wrote in a thread on a German forum (refer to the image- note that the English writing is done by Google Translate).

Yes! Absolutely. I meant po4. Sorry, Bulent. I am not consistent with that.
I’m going to go read link now..

[markalot]

Get the ULR egg that reads in PPM, that matches pretty close with the ELOS.

AquaMarine sells ELOS high res as well, might want to check with them

[gregkn73]

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

Matt, did you mean PO4 when you wrote "P"? P is phosphorus and PO4 is phosphates?

In my tank, coloration also is at its best when NO3 is around 5 ppm and PO4 is below 0.092 mg/L. This is consistent with what Hans-Werner Balling wrote in a thread on a German forum (refer to the image- note that the English writing is done by Google Translate).

Very interesting Bulent. I have red recently in another forum Mr Bailing's opinion on phosphates harmful levels, and I am very surprised that since 2013 or even earlier, has come to the conclusion that po4 are not the evil, we as hobbyist , believed!

I wanted also your opinion as far the N/P ratio. As I can read, Mr Bailing's believe that the ideal ratio is 10, and not 100, as is written in most forums. Since you follow more often his advice, what drive you to deviate, from his ideal ratio, and target to 50 (5/0.092)or higher?

[drawman]

I'll be following your progress Matt. I'm thinking hard about pulling my rock and treating it with LC in a curing bin. I don't dare experiment with it in my smaller display with my Zebrasoma tang.

Good luck! It's sure frustrating how much these PO4 kits can vary but that's the world we live in with hobby grade kits.