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Unread 03/10/2018, 10:50 AM   #1
PhantomCavie
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I like a challenge but even this has me perplexed :rollface:

Alright so here is the story. Tank is a 40 breeder with a 20 gal sum/refugium (running chaeto). I have 2 Skimmers, both reef octopus, a 90 HOB and an insump 152-S, (total rated to ~ 240 gal skimming). Stock of tank is a mixed zoas, LPS, SPS, softies, you name it, 5 fish (2" occellaris, 4" midas blenny, 2.5" pygmy angel, 3" leopard wrasse, banded shrimp goby). Using GHL to monitor pH and dose Alk and Ca (B-ionic 2 part, in equal parts). Using 4 stage RO/Di for ATO, TDS= 0). 24" reef breeder photon for light (2 channels, maxing out at 50 for an hour each day).

Tank has been up and running since 2014.

Parameters, using Red Sea tests:
Ca: ~465ppm
Dkh: ~8
Mag: ~1420
Salinity: ~1.026
Nitrates: 10-15ppm
PO4: <.08ppm
Temp: 79 F
pH: ~8.2 daytime --- ~8 night time (stable for at least 6 months according to GHL probe)

Now for the fun part. For the past 3-4 months my SPS have been undergoing STN and occasionally RTN. However, my two trumpet coral (one neon green, one blueish) have also receded almost completely (each with 10+ heads that I've had since the tank finished cycling). That being said the zoas and other LPS are flourishing, as well as some forest fire digi and motipora. The SPS that have lost flesh have been a large birds of paradise birds nest, acros, and a setosa.

At first I thought it would be nitrates causing the problem, but my tank has always sat around 10-15ppm even when I was getting steady growth on the sps (I have logs dating back to 2015 at least once a week). Also, I have a large amount of coraline algae continuing to appear, which, if memory serves, is an indicator of good tank health.

So that is about the gist of it. Other than salinity being a hair high I'm flummoxed. Any thoughts?


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Unread 03/10/2018, 10:53 AM   #2
PhantomCavie
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Also, I am still getting growth with the montipora and digi, (the montipora is about 10" across), why do my magnesium levels never drop? I don't dose mag and my last water change was over 2 months ago (when my parameters are in check I don't tend to do them as often).


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Unread 03/10/2018, 03:43 PM   #3
bertoni
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My tanks never consumed enough magnesium that I needed to dose it for that reason. Water changes were more than enough to keep the level up. That's fairly common, from what I can tell.

I am not sure what is happening to your SPS corals. Coralline is a lot less picky than SPS, as far as I can tell, so I wouldn't count on it as a good indicator. Some possibilities would be coral warfare, or chemical warfare of some type, or perhaps some sort of other organic in the water that is causing problems for some of the corals. I might start by running some fresh GAC and upping the water change frequency. Stopping the feeding for a couple of week might be interesting, as well.

I wish I could say that I am confident that this problem can be resolved easily, or at all, but we see a wide range of results.


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Unread 03/10/2018, 03:56 PM   #4
ramseynb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
Some possibilities would be coral warfare, or chemical warfare of some type, or perhaps some sort of other organic in the water that is causing problems for some of the corals. I might start by running some fresh GAC and upping the water change frequency.
Since you have softies in the tank that could very well be it. +1 on running some carbon. Softies are notorious for releasing toxins in the water.


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Unread 03/12/2018, 06:43 PM   #5
PhantomCavie
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Originally Posted by ramseynb View Post
Since you have softies in the tank that could very well be it. +1 on running some carbon. Softies are notorious for releasing toxins in the water.
Is GAC proven to remove those kind of toxins?


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Unread 03/12/2018, 10:55 PM   #6
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Nope, I don't know of much in the way of proof of much of anything with regards to organics in our systems. That's one of the problems of diagnosing and handling problems like this. Some research might turn up some papers on the structure of such toxins, at least for a few species.


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Unread 03/13/2018, 04:30 AM   #7
RobZilla04
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This has been an issue for me for the past few months as well. Everything growing and all parameters very close to yours. Suddenly SPS started to recede. Some top down, others bottom up. Best I can gather is being a mixed reef it got to a point where something became unhappy and started to irritate the others. Of course the SPS and a few trumpets took the worst of it.

I've upped the water changes which seems to have slowed the recession. Still every couple of days I witness more STN/RTN on what few SPS frags I have left.

Best of luck.


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Unread 03/13/2018, 05:53 AM   #8
jjencek
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Are you sure you are not describing my tank? :-(

I have been having the same problem lately with RTN and STN in my mixed tank.

My parameters are as follows:

Salinity = 34 ppt
Ph = 7.80-8.20
Alkalinity = 8.3 - 8.6
Calcium = 420-430
Magn (Mg) = 1230-1260


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Unread 03/14/2018, 04:42 PM   #9
HBtank
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For these mystery problems I think sending out a sample for more comprehensive analysis (i.e. the triton ICP testing) might be wise and give visibility into other metals/praramters etc..

I have been there and know the frustration.


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80g Aiptasia dominated reef tank.. with fish and now a bunch of berghia!

Current Tank Info: 80g tank, re-starting a reef after a zoanthid nudibranch plauge, followed by months of steady and unstoppable STN/RTN, crashed; stayed FOWLR for a couple years, currently an aiptasia dominated reef tank with fishies and BERGHIA
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Unread 03/14/2018, 07:01 PM   #10
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I'm not sure that the Triton methodology is accurate enough to find problems reliably. There have been various limitations documented.


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Unread 03/15/2018, 12:33 AM   #11
jjencek
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBtank View Post
For these mystery problems I think sending out a sample for more comprehensive analysis (i.e. the triton ICP testing) might be wise and give visibility into other metals/praramters etc..

I have been there and know the frustration.
Funny that you mentioned it. I had somebody here to check it yesterday and he convinced me to send samples to Triton. Triton is big in Europe. Reading about the limitations of Triton, I was little hesitant, but figured what could I lose.

When I get the results, I will judge what to do with them. Maybe I can post it here to discuss.


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Unread 03/15/2018, 04:14 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by jjencek View Post
Funny that you mentioned it. I had somebody here to check it yesterday and he convinced me to send samples to Triton. Triton is big in Europe. Reading about the limitations of Triton, I was little hesitant, but figured what could I lose.

When I get the results, I will judge what to do with them. Maybe I can post it here to discuss.
Would be interested to find out results and get opinions.


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Unread 03/15/2018, 07:16 AM   #13
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Here's my 2 cents: Correct me if I'm wrong but your corals have been growing but your fish population has been fairly stable. You're feeding regimen for both fish and corals has also been fairly stable.

We know some corals are more likely to feed heterotrophicly, they prefer organic particulates and organic N & P. Some are more likely to feed autotrophicly, they prefer inorganic N & P. But we don't really know what most corals prefer. (Here's a paper looking at this, unfortunately it looks at a very limited number of species http://www.academia.edu/1647139/Cora...tificial_foods )

So one hypothesis is as the corals have been growing the amounts of nutrients, organic and inorganic, have stayed the same. The levels of inorganic N & P have are high enough to satisfy the corals the prefer inorganic N & P as they grow. But the corals that prefer organic N & P have not been getting enough and are starving.
We can't test for organic nitrogen or organic phosphate but maybe trying foods for corals might help.

Another problem is what's happening with TOC/DOC building up in your system. Feldman, et al, did a study and skimmers had minimal effect on preventing TOC from building up over a 30 day period. Water changes are far more effective. How TOC/DOC compounds influence the microbial processes in our aquaria is sadly beyond our ability to test but some types of DOC promote pathogenic bacteria. We also know Wright, et al, found the immune response to pathogens varies greatly between the different genotypes with in a single species so we should expect very different responses between species (and the terms LPS and SPS have no relevance in determining it) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-02685-1


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Unread 03/15/2018, 10:31 AM   #14
HBtank
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bertoni View Post
I'm not sure that the Triton methodology is accurate enough to find problems reliably. There have been various limitations documented.
Better than sitting there with nothing and frantically trying everything you can to stop it IMO, speaking from experience when you feel like you have exhausted the obvious.


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80g Aiptasia dominated reef tank.. with fish and now a bunch of berghia!

Current Tank Info: 80g tank, re-starting a reef after a zoanthid nudibranch plauge, followed by months of steady and unstoppable STN/RTN, crashed; stayed FOWLR for a couple years, currently an aiptasia dominated reef tank with fishies and BERGHIA
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Unread 03/15/2018, 03:06 PM   #15
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Is it? If the results are wrong, what does running down blind alleys accomplish?


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Unread 03/15/2018, 04:47 PM   #16
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Is it? If the results are wrong, what does running down blind alleys accomplish?
Doesn't hurt since you are already going down blind alleys... again, this is the context of having no other options, i.e. "a mystery".

People are capable of looking at the results while also considering there may be some error. I like analytical data, but then that is what I do for a living.


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80g Aiptasia dominated reef tank.. with fish and now a bunch of berghia!

Current Tank Info: 80g tank, re-starting a reef after a zoanthid nudibranch plauge, followed by months of steady and unstoppable STN/RTN, crashed; stayed FOWLR for a couple years, currently an aiptasia dominated reef tank with fishies and BERGHIA
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Unread 03/15/2018, 04:54 PM   #17
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I don't understand how incorrect information is supposed to help. You can generate incorrect information on your own, without paying Triton.


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Unread 03/16/2018, 09:27 AM   #18
HBtank
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I don't understand how incorrect information is supposed to help. You can generate incorrect information on your own, without paying Triton.
So now Triton is never correct? OK.... goalposts, done with this convo.


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80g Aiptasia dominated reef tank.. with fish and now a bunch of berghia!

Current Tank Info: 80g tank, re-starting a reef after a zoanthid nudibranch plauge, followed by months of steady and unstoppable STN/RTN, crashed; stayed FOWLR for a couple years, currently an aiptasia dominated reef tank with fishies and BERGHIA
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Unread 03/16/2018, 09:51 AM   #19
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Well this got off topic....

Hopefully when the OP gets back results we can resume getting to the bottom of this. Appears lots of hobbyists experience this so it would be nice to know if something is missing or something has been introduced as the cause.


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Unread 03/16/2018, 12:07 PM   #20
PhantomCavie
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Hey, OP here. Did water tests again today with almost identical levels. So no answers there. The thought about TOC/DOC is interesting though. However, if that is the case, why are some people able to cut out water changes entirely and not suffer similar effects?

Also, has anyone heard anything about the possibility of corals outcompeting other corals for nutrients as they grow in size? Given that I have several types of large SPS that are still growing will, could this be a possibility? Zoas, blastos, and softies seem uneffected, even my leptos are doing fine.


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Unread 03/16/2018, 08:57 PM   #21
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. . . The thought about TOC/DOC is interesting though. However, if that is the case, why are some people able to cut out water changes entirely and not suffer similar effects? . . .
Well, for one how long are we talking about, a few years, a few decades? What's the success rate at 5 years, 10 years, 20 years?(1) One of the interesting things research is showing is the DOC from corals promotes autotrophic microbial processes which helps maintain healthy conditions for corals. But as time goes by without water changes unhealthy types of DOC and associated microbial processes are going to start building up. Skill is certainly needed to maintain systems for years and decades but there's a whole lot going on in our systems and we've only scratched the surface.

Here's a paper that looks at excess labile carbon and it's association with reef degradation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28895945
And here's one looking at antagonistic interactions of coral associated bacteria https://www.researchgate.net/publica...obiol_12_28-39

One intriguing expereiment are two mesocosms set up in London to study spawning in 4 species of acros: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...ece3.3538/full They started with gravid colonies which spawned soon after introduction and were able to get them to spawn simultaneously with wild colonies a year later. Since this is an ongoing and tightly controlled experiment with benchmarks it will be fascinating to see what happens over time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PhantomCavie View Post
. . . Also, has anyone heard anything about the possibility of corals outcompeting other corals for nutrients as they grow in size? Given that I have several types of large SPS that are still growing will, could this be a possibility? Zoas, blastos, and softies seem uneffected, even my leptos are doing fine.
Sadly there's very little research I've found. To use a gardening analogy, If I plant a bunch of different species together but use just one mainteneance regime most if not all the plants will certainly sprout but as they grow the individual species will have different requirements, not meeting their individual requirements will mean after a while some thrive, some will decline and die.
This paper looked at just 3 species, Porites compressa, Montipora capitata and Pocillopora damicornis. The researchers found the requirements for growth differed for each one. Meeting the needs of one would necessitate the other two would not do as well.

And this paper, https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2008/3/aafeature1, looked at how 10 different acros and montis looked and grew under different color temps. What one species liked another grew poorly under. If we keep a coral under less than ideal conditions how many years should we expect it to live?

(1) And are they actually going as long as they say, locally one aquarist liked to say he went years without a water change when he had never gone more than two, less if you add the water he had to replace for skimming [1/2 gallon a week in a 200 gallon system is at least 10% a year.]


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Unread 03/16/2018, 11:54 PM   #22
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Organics in the water column are going to vary a great deal depending on the species in the tank, and likely the growing conditions. I wouldn't take cross-tank comparisons very seriously.

It's possible that corals might be competing for nutrients, but that should be solvable with a bit more food.


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Unread 03/24/2018, 02:50 AM   #23
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I got my Triton results back. Just to recap the problems in my tank before I sent out the Triton water samples. Tank 18 months old. SPS corals having RTN and STN. Overwhelmed with red hair algae and cyano starting ...

Salinity = 34 ppt
Ph = 7.80-8.20
Alkalinity = 8.3 - 8.6
Calcium = 420-430
Magn (Mg) = 1230-1260

Here are the Triton results. I see a few values out of their recommended ranges, but I feel like it is not really pointing to the critical problem. I think I can see more with my eyes (algae and cyano bloom). Or can you see any critical problems in the results?


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File Type: pdf Triton 180323 Data.pdf (83.5 KB, 13 views)
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Unread 03/24/2018, 03:19 PM   #24
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I don't see anything out of line with those numbers.


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Unread 03/24/2018, 09:01 PM   #25
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If it were me, I'd try running some carbon and see what it gets you. This is the reason that my latest build is strictly LPS and SPS with no softies. I've read too many stories of toxin releasing softies and I've also never had luck with a mixed reef like that. It's anecdotal, but a lot is in this hobby.


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