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04/04/2015, 01:41 PM | #1 |
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Experience With Purple Queen Anthias - Must feed often
Hi All,
So I've been trolling these forums for a while and never made an account. I have been in the salktwater tank keeping for about a year now and, thanks to the information posted on this forum, I have been able to keep a very healthy 46 gallon tank. Just wanted to return the favor for what I had gained from the members of this site and post about what I've learnt in the care of purple queen anthias. I have owned two (technically three, but the third was partially crushed during shipment to me so I got it just in time to watch it die.........) purple queens at this point. I failed with the first one I owned, when I purcased the fish I did not know it was as difficult a fish as it was. The fish looked a little skinny, but the store owner had stated to me the fish would eat anything they threw at it, it was just that the fish had a high metabolism. Shame on me for not having the owner feed the fish in front of me before I purchased it. I took the fish home and, after 24 hours it came out and was swimming quite happily, but, it would not eat. I went through about 8 different types of food (arctic pods, oyster feast, different types of phyto, different crushed flake, crushed pellets, shaved PE Mysis, shaved blood worms, cyclopeeze, etc), built up quite a bit of food but the fish still would not readily eat. I had found the only way I was able to get the fish to eat was to wait for it to fall asleep, then shoot water soaked frozen food at it's face (it would suddenly wake up, eat like it was mad for about 5-10 seconds, then try to go back to sleep). I began feeding it tisbe and tigger pods, and, it would readily eat this, however, the other fish in the tank would out-compete it, and, as I know now, it is a schooling fish and will run away unless it feels like it is in a school of fish. Also, as my mandarin ate all day, the mandarin would wipe out all the copepods through the day. In desperation to get the fish more comfortable I bought another purple queen hoping it would be less stressed. The second purple queen was in really good shape and, while it appeared to have the same feeding habits as my first purple queen, the second one definitely did bring the first purple queen out. After about 24 hours of of introducing the second purple queen, they were pretty much inseparable and would swim around the tank. But, again, neither one would eat unless I fed tigger pods to the tank, and, it would have been impossible for me to feed tigger pods throughout the day while I was at work. I set out to build an automatic feeder system for the tank, and, tried my hand at hatching baby brine shrimp. Turned out, this was the ticket. The feeder system was pretty simple, a one liter bottle with two holes in the cap, and, through the two holes stick airline tubing (holes must be very tight to let no air out). Then, through the inside of the cap, attach two lengths of rigid airline tubing which are long enough so the ends of both sit about 1 inch from the bottom of the bottle (this allows you to constantly get swimming bbs as opposed to the dead ones at the bottom). Now, with the other side of the tubing (outside the bottle), run one line of tubing to the top of the tank where the opening of the tube can drip water into the tank (warning, DO NOT stick the tubing under the water line of the tank, it will back siphon into the air pump and cause a slow flood, the opening of the tubing must sit permanently abive the water line). With the other tubing, run it directly to the air pump, but, what I recommend is to put a one way check valve in place as well as make this tubing long enough so you can loop it up to the level ot the waterline of the tank, this further prevents back siphoning into the air pump. Then, get an automatic timer (I got a digital one from the home depot) and program the timer to turn the air pump on/off for at least 5 times throughout the day, every day (I have mine programmed for 10 feedings of the bbs throughout the day, 1 minute feedings each time at about 5 drops per second, which, based on my hatching, feeds about 180-200 bbs at each feeding).The final thing to do is to tune the system so it drips water into the tank when it is feeding (if you do it full blast, then you'll empty the 1 liter bottle in about 2-3 feedings). What I recommend doing is to get a mechanical adjustable clamp so you can clamp down on the airline tubing running to the air pump. What I did is too two pieces of lexan, drilled holes into both, then used two nuts and bolts to slowly compress the airline tubing. I would recommend to slowly adjust the nuts and bolts while the feeder system is on and feeding tank water from the 1 liter bottle until you see the feeder system feed at a rate of 5 drops per second, or at least at a rate where you can see separate drops fall into the tank). Now, with using the feeder system, I learnt that pretty much the entire batch of brine shrimp will die within a 24 hour period with no aeration (as the PH drops to toixic levels). It is for this reason that the rigid tubing which feeds air into the bottle is at the bottom of the bottle, so when it feeds the shrimp, it gives just a little bit of air throughout the bay to keep the shrimp alive for the day). At night, whatyou also need to do is uncap the bottle so as to relieve all air pressure, and allow the pump to run all night long, which will elevate/keep the PH steady until the next day when the feeder system will be ready to be used. In the morning, just turn the pump back on timer mode, screw the bottle cap closed, and the unit will do it's thing throughout the day. Unfortinately, by the time I had this unit up and running, my first purple queen had completely lost her desire to eat, and, instead of eating, it would just sleep all day trying to conserve energy. The drawback from all the sleeping though was that it would miss practically all the feedings. So, in the end, the first purple queen died about 4 days after I had the feeder system running. As the second purple queen was newer however, and not gone past it's threshold of appetite loss, from the time I got the feeder system running, the second purple queen ate like it had not eaten in months. The feeding response is fun to watch, because, once it senses that the bbs is in the water, it goes ballistic and will dart around the tank eating everything it can. I have had the second purple queen for about a month now, and, it has been one of the most active and lively fish in the tank. So, I took a detour here, and, what I've learnt with the purple queens are that they are kind of like a mandarin, once they get past the threshold of appetite loss, there is no turning back, the fish will be lost. The key is to get the fish from a suppler that had been actively feeding them live food, and continue feeding them live food. Do not expect to convert them to frozen foods at all, you need to expect that there is a possibility you will be feeding them live food for the rest of their lives. Don't expect to get lucky, because most likely all that'll happen is the fish will die and you'll have lost your money. As of two days ago, my purple queen has just started taking small bites here and there of some shaved PE Mysis, but, it will only take a handful of bites per feeding and then just swim around in the food, interested in it, but still skeptical about it. I will continue to feed the system bbs permanently now as all the fish in the tank seem to love them. Just wanted to share my experience with this difficult but worthwhile fish. Hopefully this helps with anyone trying to take on an endeavor like this. |
04/04/2015, 02:14 PM | #2 |
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Pictures of this would be awesomed
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04/04/2015, 02:35 PM | #3 |
Grizzled & Cynical
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Pretty much conventional wisdom. Forget who wrote it, but the comment about them having 'feeding tunnel vision' has always stuck with me. Given the efforts that one must go to, and whether they're sustainable, makes me think this is a species best kept in the ocean.
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
04/04/2015, 03:23 PM | #4 |
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Mache62. I attached a pic displaying details of the setup. Sorry no actual pics, can't find camera at the moment, but it should give you an idea.
ca1ore, agreed in some ways, however, every fish that was introduced into the market had been relatively difficult to care for until people figured out how to care for them properly or figure out what they would eat. Without those that would try and experiment different ways to care for newly aquired species, there would be no hobby or stores to cater to the hobby. Looking at your profile you're obviously a very experienced reefer, so, I'd imagine you know this as you've encountered more than a few new species in your time. I do take it personally if I loose one of these guys as I feel if I buy it, it's my responsibility now to care for it, so, I do what I can. It's easier for me as I've only one tank, but, it's all about developing a system that can run itself. If one needs to put more work into a system which can nearly run itself once complete, then, I say,go for it. |
04/04/2015, 09:04 PM | #5 | |
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Quote:
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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04/04/2015, 11:00 PM | #6 |
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Ive actually had very good success with them getting to eat with NutraMar Ova, very hard to find, fish roe and baby brine. The hard part is getting them to start eating and once eating they can gradually be introduced into taking small pellets and small frozen foods. They need to be fed small portions multiple times a day because they don't consume big items or a lot at one feeding.
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04/04/2015, 11:02 PM | #7 | |
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04/05/2015, 09:23 AM | #8 |
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Ok, finally got the camera running. Hopefully these pics will help. One thing to note though is I keep the feeder system in a water bath so the brine shrimp don't get temperature shocked and die so they stay alive for a while (they usually get eaten within a couple of minutes, but, at least any strays can stay in the water column until they get eaten).
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04/05/2015, 11:35 AM | #9 | |
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04/05/2015, 01:00 PM | #10 |
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I wouldn't call one month a success story, 1+ years maybe. Don't get me wrong, I commend your determination to care for such a difficult fish and experimented with ways to keep one. I've always been tempted to try a purple queen as I'm home during days and work nights and I'll tell myself that I'm able to feed 3x a day, but I'm going to agree with Ca1ore here that they are species best left in the ocean.
I do wish you success and hope you keep this thread updated with success or failure. I just hope that not a lot of inexperienced or intermediate hobbyists like myself sees your system as a way to keep one only to find out that it's not a long term solution since they're such a stunning fish and I know some will try. That's why I would've like to have seen this thread after 1+ years. |
04/05/2015, 04:44 PM | #11 | |
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For a feeding response in a fish to change, it would usually be because of external influences causing it (something which would induce stress in the fish, making it too scared to come out and eat, or, causing it to stress starve just like a human would do when stressed, and, there are many things that can do this). Based on what I had put together, the purple queen I currently have is thriving and feeding very well. I believe in the science of a system, and, just because something like this gets set in place, it doesn't give someone the right to just walk away assuming all is set, they would need to monitor it for a while to make sure everything works. This works for anything new that someone sets in place. Would you install new plumbing into your entire home and not spend the next week monitoring it? One thing to note however, it took quite a bit of tuning for me to set the unit up for my tank, and, for anyone else trying this, they will need to take the time to tune it to their system as well, such as the clamping force on the tubing, the type of pump to use, etc. This isn't an end all, it was never intended to be, but, it's just a thought that worked out for me so far. Just that simple. |
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04/06/2015, 06:21 AM | #12 | |
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In most cases of purple queen anthias failure it is a case of the anthias refusing to eat at all. Oftentimes the foods offered illicit no response at all. However, in the cases I have seen success, getting them eating was the key. In 2 of the cases 20+ purple queens were added at the same time. and with the added numbers,would venture out to eat and did well. In another instance it was just a few specimens, but live baby brine was offered until they were able to be weaned on frozen. Everytime once they started to eat survival was much, much better. The OP'S device provides the proper food and the proper feeding. It is by no means a simple process, but it is a successful one. The thoughts of "this is a fish that should be left in the oceans" is a statement that often indicates the one making that statement thinks too highly of their own skills or too lowly of other aquarists skills. In the first instance there is the thought of "I am an experienced aquarist and if I cant keep them they are impossible" or in the second example a cynic that has seen too many people fail. But look at saltwater aquarium books from the 80's and compare that with the livestock husbandry provided today. Hobbyists are having more success now than professional aquariums were back then. It is through trying to succeed and provide better care for the animals we keep, even the difficult ones. These fish are not for everyone, but by providing info on how to be successful at it, the OP is providing a service.
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04/06/2015, 10:23 AM | #13 | |
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I have had two purple queen anthias in my tank since August of 2014. They were both very similar in size when I got them with slightly sunken stomaches. While one has grown nicely in size and girth, the other has not. She has not lost weight as far as I can tell visually but has not put on either. I can see a slightly sunken belly on her. She is still aggressively eating but not putting weight on like I would like to see. The larger of the two eats almost all of the frozen food I feed whole (mysis, Dr. G's coral reef banquet, cyclops, salmon roe, shaved scallop and shrimp) but the smaller mostly snacks on the smaller portions only. I'd like to add the pellets into an auto feeder as well as continuing to offer frozen like I do but as of right now they are tasting the pellets but spitting them back out. I think the size of the pellets is throwing off the smaller of the two. I currently have NLS 1 mm sinking pellets. To add to this thread - I am very new to salt water tanks having only started my first tank 1.5 years ago, but IME offering many small meals of variety throughout the day has been necessary for my two anthias. I also experimented with shutting my pumps off to feed. The frozen food suspended in the water column with no flow initially started them eating but now they seem to particularly go after food blown about in the Water column by the power heads. I am fortunate my schedule allows me to feed often throughout the day - typically every 2-3 hours between 7 am and 10 pm. |
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04/06/2015, 09:41 PM | #14 |
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You might want to try adding Reef Nutrition R.O.E (fish eggs) or shaved PE Mysis. As of a day or two now my purple queen just started eating both the shaved PE Mysis as well as picking at the ROE (granted it will only take about 4-5 bites, but it will not spit it out, it's a start). For the ROE, I don't do anything special, I just mix it in with my other foods (I mix PE mysis, SFB Emerald Mix, and the ROE), but for the PE mysis, what I do is shave the frozen mysis over a fine cheese grater to make small pieces or the mysis. Size seems to be a huge thing for this fish, and, it looks like they won't eat anything larger than the size of the ROE. I've been feeding the anthias baby brine religiously, and, what I noticed happen was, the anthias would be really shy whenever I fed my other fish, and, it would go hide when the feeding frenzy started (none or my fish are aggressive toward each other when they eat, but they eat aggresively, which scared the purple queen away), with the baby brine, there was so much of it the anthias would get more than their fair share. So, whenever I fed the other fish the ROE and PE mysis, it was shy at week one, at week two, it seemed to realize none of the fish would attack it so it started hanging out at the side of the feeding circle, but not eat yet. At week three it got brave and would go to the middle of the tank and be in the middle of the feeding, swimming around but not eating. At week four it would nibble on pieces but spit most out. Now it is starting to eat the PE Mysis and the ROE, but, it seems to like the ROE better. Just a thought. Also, you might want to introduce the ROE or PE Mysis at the same time you feed the baby brine shrimp, so they start associating one with the other. Beautiful fish by the way. |
04/06/2015, 10:54 PM | #15 |
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Krispifsu....I started mixing Spectrum .5mm and then 1mm in with frozen foods and a couple months later they would take it plain from an auto feeder.
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04/07/2015, 03:29 PM | #16 |
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I've also had them eating spectrum pellets and feel it's pretty important in keeping them. Once pellets are on the menu, auto feeders and very regular feeding is a possibility. I've never had any issues getting these guys to eat but getting them to eat anything larger than a speck is another story. I believe they can be trained but it takes lots of time in a QT with some nice current, they only eat what is moving and for small fish they handle flow amazingly well.
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04/07/2015, 07:56 PM | #17 |
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After about two years my largest female turned male and began attempting to eat whole PE mysis, but only actually consumed the smaller ones.
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Proud LIRA Member February 2011 Manhattan Reefs TOTM Current Tank Info: 170 gal Reef, 20 gal frag/reef,90 gal fuge, 65 gal sump, 2-250 Radiums on Hamilton M80 HQIs, T5 actincs, Vertex in280 skimmer, MRC-2 Cal Reactor, Reeflo return pump |
04/07/2015, 10:31 PM | #18 |
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05/24/2015, 01:37 AM | #19 |
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Hey Guys,
So a quick update on my purple queen experience. The feeder system I have is still working well, though I had made a modification to it. I now have the system running with 2 air pumps and an air bleeder valve. What I had noticed when I was running the system with only one pump (which only ran during feeding) was that the brine shrimp were not getting enough oxygen, and the PH of the feeder system water would drop to about 7.4, resulting in all of the brine shrimp dying after about 12 hours. I added a second pump which constantly fed air bubbles into the feeder bottle all day as well as an air flow valve which would let out only the air which is fed from the second pump. By adding this, the feeder bottle water constantly gets aerated, and when the first pump (on a timer) comes on, it adds additional pressure to the system (thereby overloading the bleeder valve) and the additional air pressure forces the water from the feeder bottle into the display tank (the baby brine then get fed to the tank with the water). I am happy to say that my purple queen is doing well. I actually got a second one now, and both have been doing well for a couple of months now. The first purple queen is still a finnicky eater, and will take turns wanting to only eat hatched brine one week, and the next week wanting to only eat brine shrimp eggs (the eggs I hatch are decapsulated, so safer for the fish). The second purple queen I got however is now eating minced pieces of PE mysis I feed to the tank. As a side note, I have been culturing tigger pods for about 6 weeks now (I have four 5 gallon buckets in my basement specifically for culturing tiggers, and it's been working well as I harvest approximately 3000 adult tiggers a week now). Both the purple queens go nuts for the tiggers, and they will run head first into other fish trying to get to the tiggers. On the advice of one of the local fish store owners, I began feeding tiggers at the same time I fed my regular fish food, and, it actually worked in getting the second purple queen to accidentally eat pieces of the PE mysis (had been funny to watch the first few days as it would swallow a chunk of PE mysis, and then stand still in the water for a couple of seconds as if it didn't know what it just did). After a few days of doing this and "tricking" the purple queens into eating the PE mysis, the second purple queen is now eating the mysis quite readily. My first purple queen is still very finnicky though, and will only eat the tiggers and the baby brine shrimp/eggs. Happy to say however, the system managed to keep both fish alive and fed. |
05/24/2015, 09:06 AM | #20 |
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I know the purple queen is considered to be amongst the most difficult, but FWIW I have been able to successfully get both princess and evansi anthias to feed aggressively on the SF ocean plankton. It's slightly bigger than cyclopeeze, but still small enough that these planktivores 'see' it as food. Although I did have a parasite problem with my evansi, unrelated to feeding, both they and the princess have been with me for over 4 months and I've been able to keep them at a healthy weight based on 3 feedings a day. Whether this would translate to the purple queen I cannot say, though it may be worth a try.
Maintaining them on the ocean plankton also allows them time to begin to try brine and small mysis. Both of mine wil regularly take the former now, and occasionally 'accidentally' eat a Mysid.
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
05/26/2015, 10:40 PM | #21 | |
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05/27/2015, 03:50 PM | #22 | |
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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06/10/2015, 02:59 PM | #23 |
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Made my first BlueZoo order (all 'difficult' fish) today and included is a six-pack of small Tuka females. Apparently I have no will power. Due to arrive Friday, so fingers crossed they come in well. Other than jumpers , I've had success with most of the other hard to keep species so thought I'd try my hand again with the grand daddy of PITA fish. Time to go down to the local bank and retrieve my stash of Nutramar Ova
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
06/14/2015, 01:05 PM | #24 | |
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Now, at the risk of some hypocrisy, I did recently purchase five purple queens; and in this case I am guilty of believing my skills as a reef keeper are superior to most and that my purchasing of them does mean a better (though likely still poor) prognosis for survival. --------------------------------- I have had them for 2 days, so the QT lights are still dimmed: but all (including the one Evansi male) are eating nutramar ova, and a couple are even eating the slightly larger reef plankton.
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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06/17/2015, 05:40 PM | #25 |
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At the risk of simply talking to myself ....
Five Tukas are doing well after one week (does that count as 'success'? ) all eating nutramar ova. Have a stash of it that I figure will last through the Summer, so have that long to convince them to eat other stuff. Two of the five will eat hikari mysis. They show some interest in the ocean plankton, but none in frozen brine. Evansi in QT with them is the 'dither' fish and pretty much eats everything. Lights fully up at this point. Haven't tried hatching out brine nauplii in many years (always seemed like a heck of a lot of trouble) but may do that again. Work from a home office, and travel is light during the Summer so I can tend to them appropriately.
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Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs |
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