how often to replace ph, orp, temp, and salinity probes? - Page 2

johnfallon135 · 01/20/2016, 11:48 PM

i was also wondering when calibrating orp and salinity does temp matter too?

johnfallon135 · 01/21/2016, 12:38 AM

i just used a pinpoint packet and the label was sort of peeling off do you guys know if it's harmful to leave the clear label on with printed words in the tank?

johnfallon135 · 01/21/2016, 02:13 AM

how long do you leave your calibration fluid in your tanks for? 20 mins?

Member No. 1 · 01/21/2016, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnfallon135

thanks for helping me out all night!

Welcome! That's why we are all here. To help each other. Lord knows I've gotten plenty of help here. Maybe not directly from one or two people, but from reading, searching, rereading over and over. This is a fantastic site, great people, even a greater wealth of knowledge.

Member No. 1 · 01/21/2016, 04:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnfallon135

i was also wondering when calibrating orp and salinity does temp matter too?

Salinity yes as my Apex has temp compensation. Salinity will vary with temp.
That's why the better well made refractometers have temp compensation.
ORP I've never calibrated the probe.

Member No. 1 · 01/21/2016, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnfallon135

how long do you leave your calibration fluid in your tanks for? 20 mins?

That's fine. I open the package, using a big spring clip, clip the package to one of the baffles in my sump so the bottom is in the water, wait 10-15 minutes (overkill) then when calibrating, put the probe in while it's still in the water.

Member No. 1 · 01/21/2016, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by johnfallon135

i just used a pinpoint packet and the label was sort of peeling off do you guys know if it's harmful to leave the clear label on with printed words in the tank?

If you're concerned, fill a small cup with tank water, put the packet in the cup, then float the cup in your sump. This way the packet never comes in contact with the actual tank water.

Member No. 1 · 01/21/2016, 04:28 AM

PS.....
Thanks for helping me with my post count!: lolspin:

disc1 · 01/21/2016, 08:39 AM

You probably shouldn't be floating your pH calibration solution in your tank. You don't need it to match tank temperature. Really, that could throw your calibration off depending on the temperature in your tank. You want that solution at about room temp (25C) for an accurate calibration. The calibration solution needs to be at the pH that it says it is and that is only happening at 25C.

Member No. 1 · 01/21/2016, 11:36 AM

Good info.
25C = 77F My tank runs 77-78. I would image most homes in a colder climate this time of are far below that. My house is at 65F Same would hold true in the summer without AC it could be higher than the 77F. This is why I suggest the sump. More stable no mater what time of year.

disc1 · 01/21/2016, 01:28 PM

If your sump is a good way to get 25C then I guess that's OK. I was just getting at the fact that it's the 25C you want to match not necessarily the tank temperature.

1jwampler · 07/06/2018, 12:24 AM

I know this is an old thread, but, I have some information that others may benefit from, so I figured I'd post. Don't post any hate because my findings aren't in conventional wisdom.

I have Apex classic running for about 4 years now, calibrated probes every 30-60 days, found inaccuracies and changed probes in 6mos. I got mad a Neptune Systems due to inconsistencies and finally got frustrated after a year trying to keep crazy tight tolerances, then didn't care too much when I found it impossible no mater how hard I tried.

I just started using the information/data as a "relative" guide, if ORP ran lower than normal, water must be dirty, test for nitrates and phosphates, most cases they were higher than near 0, did a WC and all was good again. Main difference between old and new ORP probe is old showed tank to recover much faster than a new probe, my guess is that the old probe was wrong, but, none the less stabilized at a higher number faster.

If pH drops too much, Kalk reactor is probably depleted and needs 3-4 cups to boost it again. If salinity changed I either had a bubble in my in-line probe holder or the probe needed cleaning I really never have a salinity change. I have an ATO, so if I see a rapid salinity change, I would assume the ATO failed, but, it hasn't happened, just a misguided probe reading.

I have a Milwaukee salinity tester which always shows 34 or 35, at any random test, even if Apex says 38 or 32. Apex support always says it's a bubble, IMHO they are wrong, but who cares, test the tank if it's ok calibrate the probe to tank if tank test is 35.0.

In all cases where Apex support said buy a new probe (or even replaced it under warranty) they have been wrong, buy a new probe get the same results. Old school refractometer gets the same results as the Milwaukee (35.0) a new 53,000 calibrated conductivity probe has reported 38 or 33. There are too many conductivity variables in the tank, that Apex doesn't have algorithms to work out...

So... I test with Milwaukee to 35.0 change (remove 1/2 gal of tank water from a 150 add 1 cup of salt mix to 1/2 gal RODI if low which is usually the case ) usually only a .1 or .2 equivalent and calibrate salinity to tank water (53,000 or close enough to right), and go for another 3-6 months, until Apex is wrong again, rinse and repeat.

Anyhow, sorry for the run-on, but, wanted you to have some background. Last month I got a New Apex it came with new probes (3-4 years later) and new probes "relatively" calibrate the same as the 3-4 year old probes. I have found for me it's best to use Apex regardless of probe age to get a baseline to actual (test outside of APEX and let it stabilize for a week or two) then watch the trend not the number. My tank and it's inhabitants don't care what the number is, just that it doesn't change much from freshly mixed and aerated 35.0 PPT seawater.

Does it matter if your salinity is 34.9, 35.0 or 35.1? If your pH is 8.1 or 8.3 or even 7.9 or 8.4? Only if it changes more than .1 or .2 out of your light cycle and stays there. Meaning all systems are going to drop pH at night (unless your refugium is as big as your system and you use 100% inverse lighting, meaning dimmer and dimmer fuge at 8am and brighter and brighter fuge at 6pm).

My tank no matter what measurement system I use is about 8.15 on a winter early 5am and 7.9 on a very hot summer early 5am, its about 8.35 as a high in winter and 8.25 in the summer. The reason it doesn't go above 8.35 is I have Kalk cut off at 8.3 measured.

ORP is not a parameter that IMHO anyone not dosing ozone should care about what the actual value is, just is it stable for a month or two and then run other tests if it changes to determine real water quality, since there are many factors that can change ORP not warranting changing anything in your tank parameters, dosing, WC, etc.

Bottom line.... My experience is Apex is a great tool to give an early automated warning that you need to look at your tank based on a significant change in reading at an hour of the day, not what the number is compared to a chart. In most cases if you have a mature system, a value is significantly out of line the most likely cause is Apex probes that need cleaning and or calibration. Don't take this to mean Apex hasn't saved my ***, it has, but, not because a probe number didn't match a chart, but, because it didn't match yesterdays number by a significant value. Again, my 1st instinct was Apex probe calibration issue, but, anytime the baseline changes, it warrants an expedient outside of Apex test. If the test says all good, then recalibrate at my convenience, as the relative value can be used from that point in time; I.E. perhaps salinity always runs 35.4 and it drops to 33.4 and Milwaukee says 35.0, it's ok to count on Apex staying at 33.4 and only needing to check with Milwaukee again if Apex changes by .5 to 1.0 in less a short time. Often it works it's way back to 35.4 without cleaning or calibration. Again a 3rd party test is warranted when going from 33.5 to 35.4.

My conclusion is the old probes hold "relative" calibration as well as new probes. Meaning the old pH probe may say 8.20 or 8.25 after calibration when the water is really 8.3, but.... if it settles at 8.2 a day after calibration and the water is 8.3 it doesn't matter to me. If it drops to 7.9 a 3rd party test may reveal the water to be 8.0 and a new probe may be 8.0 but the delta is still the same .3, which seems to be the same with old and new probes. And after lots of pain and suffering trying to use Apex for a measurement of a parameter, rather than a tool to keep my tank healthy, I discovered that I have saved a lot by not buying replacement probes and a lot of frustration when even new probes are not an accurate measurement.

Since the new Apex and probes are only 30 days old, they may stay relatively calibrated for longer than 3-6mos, if that's the case, I'll check back in and report that. I have a hunch, they will get misaligned from the actual (3rd party test) number, in 3-6mos. I won't lose sleep or go rushing home from vacation, but, I will run 3rd party tests to see if the delta is still working the same as the old probes, and I'm going to guess it is.

Anyhow, these are just my thoughts and observations, I hope they help somebody.

01/21/2016, 04:28 AM	#33
Member No. 1 Ver. 2.1 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Rehoboth, MA Posts: 1,803	PS..... Thanks for helping me with my post count!: lolspin: __________________ Pete "I never make mistakes... I thought I did once, but I was wrong" Current Tank Info: In the process - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2661614

01/21/2016, 08:39 AM	#34
disc1 -RT * ln(k) Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Little Rock Posts: 9,705	You probably shouldn't be floating your pH calibration solution in your tank. You don't need it to match tank temperature. Really, that could throw your calibration off depending on the temperature in your tank. You want that solution at about room temp (25C) for an accurate calibration. The calibration solution needs to be at the pH that it says it is and that is only happening at 25C. __________________ David Current Tank: Undergoing reconstruction...

01/21/2016, 11:36 AM	#35
Member No. 1 Ver. 2.1 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Rehoboth, MA Posts: 1,803	Good info. 25C = 77F My tank runs 77-78. I would image most homes in a colder climate this time of are far below that. My house is at 65F Same would hold true in the summer without AC it could be higher than the 77F. This is why I suggest the sump. More stable no mater what time of year. __________________ Pete "I never make mistakes... I thought I did once, but I was wrong" Current Tank Info: In the process - http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2661614

01/21/2016, 01:28 PM	#36
disc1 -RT * ln(k) Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Little Rock Posts: 9,705	If your sump is a good way to get 25C then I guess that's OK. I was just getting at the fact that it's the 25C you want to match not necessarily the tank temperature. __________________ David Current Tank: Undergoing reconstruction...

07/06/2018, 12:24 AM	#37
1jwampler Registered Member Join Date: May 2016 Posts: 139	Probes last longer than I originally would have thought. I know this is an old thread, but, I have some information that others may benefit from, so I figured I'd post. Don't post any hate because my findings aren't in conventional wisdom. I have Apex classic running for about 4 years now, calibrated probes every 30-60 days, found inaccuracies and changed probes in 6mos. I got mad a Neptune Systems due to inconsistencies and finally got frustrated after a year trying to keep crazy tight tolerances, then didn't care too much when I found it impossible no mater how hard I tried. I just started using the information/data as a "relative" guide, if ORP ran lower than normal, water must be dirty, test for nitrates and phosphates, most cases they were higher than near 0, did a WC and all was good again. Main difference between old and new ORP probe is old showed tank to recover much faster than a new probe, my guess is that the old probe was wrong, but, none the less stabilized at a higher number faster. If pH drops too much, Kalk reactor is probably depleted and needs 3-4 cups to boost it again. If salinity changed I either had a bubble in my in-line probe holder or the probe needed cleaning I really never have a salinity change. I have an ATO, so if I see a rapid salinity change, I would assume the ATO failed, but, it hasn't happened, just a misguided probe reading. I have a Milwaukee salinity tester which always shows 34 or 35, at any random test, even if Apex says 38 or 32. Apex support always says it's a bubble, IMHO they are wrong, but who cares, test the tank if it's ok calibrate the probe to tank if tank test is 35.0. In all cases where Apex support said buy a new probe (or even replaced it under warranty) they have been wrong, buy a new probe get the same results. Old school refractometer gets the same results as the Milwaukee (35.0) a new 53,000 calibrated conductivity probe has reported 38 or 33. There are too many conductivity variables in the tank, that Apex doesn't have algorithms to work out... So... I test with Milwaukee to 35.0 change (remove 1/2 gal of tank water from a 150 add 1 cup of salt mix to 1/2 gal RODI if low which is usually the case ) usually only a .1 or .2 equivalent and calibrate salinity to tank water (53,000 or close enough to right), and go for another 3-6 months, until Apex is wrong again, rinse and repeat. Anyhow, sorry for the run-on, but, wanted you to have some background. Last month I got a New Apex it came with new probes (3-4 years later) and new probes "relatively" calibrate the same as the 3-4 year old probes. I have found for me it's best to use Apex regardless of probe age to get a baseline to actual (test outside of APEX and let it stabilize for a week or two) then watch the trend not the number. My tank and it's inhabitants don't care what the number is, just that it doesn't change much from freshly mixed and aerated 35.0 PPT seawater. Does it matter if your salinity is 34.9, 35.0 or 35.1? If your pH is 8.1 or 8.3 or even 7.9 or 8.4? Only if it changes more than .1 or .2 out of your light cycle and stays there. Meaning all systems are going to drop pH at night (unless your refugium is as big as your system and you use 100% inverse lighting, meaning dimmer and dimmer fuge at 8am and brighter and brighter fuge at 6pm). My tank no matter what measurement system I use is about 8.15 on a winter early 5am and 7.9 on a very hot summer early 5am, its about 8.35 as a high in winter and 8.25 in the summer. The reason it doesn't go above 8.35 is I have Kalk cut off at 8.3 measured. ORP is not a parameter that IMHO anyone not dosing ozone should care about what the actual value is, just is it stable for a month or two and then run other tests if it changes to determine real water quality, since there are many factors that can change ORP not warranting changing anything in your tank parameters, dosing, WC, etc. Bottom line.... My experience is Apex is a great tool to give an early automated warning that you need to look at your tank based on a significant change in reading at an hour of the day, not what the number is compared to a chart. In most cases if you have a mature system, a value is significantly out of line the most likely cause is Apex probes that need cleaning and or calibration. Don't take this to mean Apex hasn't saved my ***, it has, but, not because a probe number didn't match a chart, but, because it didn't match yesterdays number by a significant value. Again, my 1st instinct was Apex probe calibration issue, but, anytime the baseline changes, it warrants an expedient outside of Apex test. If the test says all good, then recalibrate at my convenience, as the relative value can be used from that point in time; I.E. perhaps salinity always runs 35.4 and it drops to 33.4 and Milwaukee says 35.0, it's ok to count on Apex staying at 33.4 and only needing to check with Milwaukee again if Apex changes by .5 to 1.0 in less a short time. Often it works it's way back to 35.4 without cleaning or calibration. Again a 3rd party test is warranted when going from 33.5 to 35.4. My conclusion is the old probes hold "relative" calibration as well as new probes. Meaning the old pH probe may say 8.20 or 8.25 after calibration when the water is really 8.3, but.... if it settles at 8.2 a day after calibration and the water is 8.3 it doesn't matter to me. If it drops to 7.9 a 3rd party test may reveal the water to be 8.0 and a new probe may be 8.0 but the delta is still the same .3, which seems to be the same with old and new probes. And after lots of pain and suffering trying to use Apex for a measurement of a parameter, rather than a tool to keep my tank healthy, I discovered that I have saved a lot by not buying replacement probes and a lot of frustration when even new probes are not an accurate measurement. Since the new Apex and probes are only 30 days old, they may stay relatively calibrated for longer than 3-6mos, if that's the case, I'll check back in and report that. I have a hunch, they will get misaligned from the actual (3rd party test) number, in 3-6mos. I won't lose sleep or go rushing home from vacation, but, I will run 3rd party tests to see if the delta is still working the same as the old probes, and I'm going to guess it is. Anyhow, these are just my thoughts and observations, I hope they help somebody.

01/20/2016, 11:48 PM	#26
johnfallon135 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 442	i was also wondering when calibrating orp and salinity does temp matter too?

01/21/2016, 02:13 AM	#28
johnfallon135 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Posts: 442	how long do you leave your calibration fluid in your tanks for? 20 mins?