~Help~!-Dead Clowns & Damsel (C.o.D. unkown)

[bfgm]

Introduction:
Hi, I'm new to these forums, but not to fishkeeping. I've kept freshwater for years with no problems. However after careful research I've taken the dive into saltwater. If you wish not to read the entire post but still want to contribute, feel free to read the "TL;DR" section.

Aquarium Setup:

Tank: 20 Gallon High (24x12x16)
Filter: Marineland Penguin Bio-wheel 150b
Light: T8 15w 6500, Blue LED 2w. (17w total)
Heater: 50w Tetra (auto adjusted to 75F)
LR: 20 Lbs. (Pre-cured from LFS Aquarium)
LS: 20 Lbs. Caribsea.
Aeration: Bubblestone.

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Water Parameters:

Ammonia-0
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-Less than 5
Salinity-1.027
PH-8.1
Cycle Process: Mini-Cycle. (LR was already fully established for over a year and was kept wet while transported from LFS to my DT.
Acclimation: 20 minute bag float, 25 minute drip acclimation.
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TL;DR: -

1st Week:
Purchased all equipment listed above, and a Damselfish for the mini-cycle. Damselfish died 2 days later. Water params were: Ammonia-.50, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-5-, Salinity- 1.027. Damsel color was only faded. Did not appear like normal Marine Velvet, Brook, or Ich.

2nd Week:
Purchased Cleaner Shrimp, 3 Turbo Snails, and a Nassarius snail. 1+ Month later all are still very happy.

3rd Week: Purchased Clownfish x2 at local Petco (surprisingly good petco). (1x 3" Female, 1x 1.5" Male). 4 Days later male died, with what appeared like white powder covering his body. 2 days later female died. Same appearance on death. Water Params: Ammonia-0, Nitrite-0, Nitrate-5+, Salinity 1.027.

Assumption: I want to say the cause of death to the clownfish was Marine Velvet Judging by Google images. However, the Damsel never showed signs of Marine Velvet, but maybe died because of the mini cycle? The cycle only lasted 2-3 days.

Question: Did Marine Velvet kill my fish? Why didn't the Damsel have a white film on its body? Did the Damsel simply die from the "mini-cycle"? Why are all my inverts still alive?

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More Details:
The entire setup was purchased brand new in the box. The LR did come pre-cured from the local LFS and was kept wet while transporting 20 minutes away. Prior to the death of the Damsel fish he did show labored breathing, and began hiding in rock crevices. To me this looked similar to the way fish act when ammonia levels are present (ammonia was .50). Damsel did fade some before death, but after death it was 75% faded to white. I returned to the LFS to inspect his stock. Nothing looked like Marine Velvet, although I did notice he kept very very few marine fish. The saltwater tanks were also connected by 1 single sump. (Easily spread contagion).

IMPORTANT to note: At the time of death of the Damselfish, everything that had entered my tank (Damsel too) had come from the same LFS, and nowhere else.

More Details: When purchasing the 2 Clownfish I was much more cautious. I carefully inspected both specimen. Both were very bright and energetic at the store, and in my home. I did notice the young male played at the surface and in the filter outflow a lot. He still looked happy with no signs of discoloration, although he did show very slightly heavy signs of labored breathing. I assumed this was because he was still adjusting to the new tank.

A couple days later I noticed the Female clown was being lethargic in an area with low current. After closer inspection I also noticed what appeared to be white film on the body. The film looked like a light dusting of powder but was very faint (not spotted like ich). I treated the fish immediately with freshwater baths in a desperate attempt to alleviate some of his breathing problems. The baths did seem to give him a boost of energy for a short time after each one. The clown died a couple days later. The white film looked very evident as Marine Velvet in my "Un-experienced opinion". After another visit to the store to inspect the marine livestock all seemed healthy with no signs of sickness or distress. Again these saltwater tanks were also connected with 1 single sump. (Easily Spread Contagion).

Conclusion: My inverts are still alive, and energetic to this day. Why are they alive and my fish are dying? Did I infect my tank with Marine Velvet with the first Damselfish? (No evident signs). Or did the Damsel die of simple stress from the mini cycle, and the clowns were actually the ones who brought in the Marine Velvet? Please help. : /


Thank your time. I know it has been a very lengthy post.

-Andrew

[rffanat1c]

With ammonia that high it probably killed the damsel. Even though it's precured it obviously couldn't handle the cycle and you got ammonia and it killed the already weak damsel.

Clowns sound like brookynella. Quick killer.

Let your tank sit for a good 6 weeks to cycle. Feed it food like there are fish. Test again and wait until nitrites and ammonia are at zero.

I suggest you read more and wait to try again.

[toothybugs]

Read in to fishless cycling and quarantine procedures. The 'new to hobby' forum will be very helpful to you and should answer many of your questions. For now, keep feeding your inverts, watch your numbers, and no fish until you pinned down QT or at least the rationale behind it.

[adambom]

+1. Sounds like ammonia killed the Damsel and disease killed the clownfish. Any non-zero ammonia reading is dangerous to fish.

Also agreed you need to wait 6+ weeks before adding any more fish to allow the disease to cycle out and die from a lack of a host.

[CStrickland]

I'd add a powerhead too. I don't think a penguin filter and an airstone is going to keep up with gas exchange

[mussel and hate]

It must be pomacentrid ebola. I mean if the shrimp survived while the various damselfish perished...

Water from Fukushima? Watch out for Godzilla shrimp in the near future.

[bfgm]

Originally Posted by CStrickland

I'd add a powerhead too. I don't think a penguin filter and an airstone is going to keep up with gas exchange

err...keep in mind i'm more of a freshwater guy. Gas exchange as in Co2 to oxygen?..Elaborate?

[CStrickland]

Yeah. Sw tanks need the water moved around more. The surface of the tank should look ripply and the water from down by the sand should get moved up so it can pass over the surface to get freshened. Bubblers are just for looks.

[figuerres]

Originally Posted by bfgm

err...keep in mind i'm more of a freshwater guy. Gas exchange as in Co2 to oxygen?..Elaborate?

if I had a video to post right now I bet you would find it interesting....

most reef tanks have more than one pump in the tank moving the water to create flow that is like the flow on a reef in the ocean.

think of the waves crashing on the rocks and how that mixes air and water.

in my tank I have 4 Tunze pumps that change speed over time and some of them turn off when others are on.
the result is my tank looks like the sea and my fish are swimming into the strong currents to catch food.

also I have a tank below the main tank called a "sump" and in that sump water is falling down from the main tank into the sump and a skimmer is also injecting air into the water and that water is pumped back up to the main tank.
so the 200 gallons of water in my tank is moving and churning all the time.
that gets a lot more oxygen into the water.

hope that helps with the ideas....

[figuerres]

also 3 weeks is too fast. a new system should be run for more like 6 weeks to fully cycle.

[bfgm]

Wow, so I just realized that I left out a valuable piece of information /facepalm. The reason that the ammonia was so high was because I hadn't bought all the rock yet. The day after purchasing the Damsel I tested the parameters and realized that the Rock wasn't enough to take care of the ammonia so I went back and bought more. I only had 15lbs to begin with, and added 10lbs the next day. 25 Total pounds which brought Amm, Ni, and Na to zero.

Also having said that, and having identified that the Damsel died of ammonia poisoning. Any thoughts as to what happened to the 2 clowns? (All parameters were in check during that period). Also I agree that the addition of atleast 1 powerhead is needed, but surely that wouldnt be the cause of death seeing as how all of the inverts are still alive and constantly foraging. Thoughts?

[rffanat1c]

As I already posted, it was probably brookynella. Google it

[bfgm]

Originally Posted by rffanat1c

As I already posted, it was probably brookynella. Google it

I appreciate your input and I have indeed researched *brooklynella*. However as I already posted the symptoms were more consistent with Marine Velvet (Powdery Flower substance) which is where it gets its name.

Having said that as I do, and have valued your advice.. It seems as though there are others who have a different opinion as to the cause of death. Just exploring all options.

[Bill Nye]

Cycling with fish is cruel. You are moving too fast do more research then try again.

[bfgm]

Originally Posted by Bill Nye

Cycling with fish is cruel. You are moving too fast do more research then try again.

If you re-read the post you'll notice I was not intending to cycle a tank. The rock was established and cured. Therefore the filtration was already there. The problem was I didn't have enough rock. The point being made is the cycle was unintentional. The next day more rock was purchased and parameters fell in line.

Also if we could hold back the criticism, and try to provide answers it would be much appreciated.

[rffanat1c]

Well if you think it's marine velvet, then you have your answer. Fish do not become suddenly ill with labored breathing and a white film because of equipment.

They were probably already infected at the store and your stressful tank (the ammonia) set off the disease into full speed. Working Equipment is generally not a cause of death. Power heads only kill weak fish not healthy ones.

Also you cannot really positively identify a disease by symptoms only via a microscope. Brook and velvet are very similar in appearance

[oldbones]

10 or 15 pounds of rock is plenty to handle the waste from a single juvenile damsel, that is IF it's properly loaded with beneficial bacteria.

[figuerres]

Originally Posted by bfgm

If you re-read the post you'll notice I was not intending to cycle a tank. The rock was established and cured. Therefore the filtration was already there. The problem was I didn't have enough rock. The point being made is the cycle was unintentional. The next day more rock was purchased and parameters fell in line.

Also if we could hold back the criticism, and try to provide answers it would be much appreciated.

Not to say anything about what you intended but lets talk about some basics of saltwater tanks.

In a given volume of water several chemical and biological processes are happening, temperature, water movement, oxygenation are also factors.

Personally I recommend to new saltwater keepers to start with a 40 gallon or larger tank as the larger volume means that you have more time before most parameters can swing to danger values.
Larger volumes tend to maintain temperature longer, having volume with a light bio load will also lead to more time before ammonia reaches toxic levels and so forth.

In a smaller volume things like dissolved o2 levels and ammonia levels can swing out of range faster.

One of the major factors that lead to livestock getting ill is stress.
A small water volume with changing parameters can lead to stress that can accelerate illness.

Not to say that you can not run a small tank, just that they are a bit more of a challenge in some ways.

Now if the first attempt had an ammonia spike and you added more rock then you have a tank that is going to have another small cycle to run to get to a stable set of water parameters.

I always tell folks that in this hobby only bad things happen fast.

I would keep fish and most other live stock out of a tank until it is running with stable parameters for at least a week or two. And in a less than 30 gallon tank I would add live stock very slowly to give time to re check parameters each time.

It's all about how fast a change can take effect in a given water volume.
Smaller means it can happen fast.

This is all true even if you have fish that are healthy to start with.

Add a single sick fish and it gets worse.