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Unread 12/22/2010, 06:00 AM   #1
r0cksteady
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Lanthanum Chloride - recommended micron size?

Hi All,

Ive started dosing Lanthanum Chloride into my skimmer chamber with a 200 micron filter bag and am just wondering if this is sufficient or if I should go down to a 100 micron or smaller? Also are the mesh bags acceptable or should I be using the fibre\felt ones?

Any help would be appreciated.


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Unread 12/22/2010, 07:40 AM   #2
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When you add Lanthanum chloride to a smaller volume of water only so much phosphate is in that amount of water to precipitate out. Extra LC will go into your tank and then react with phosphate in the larger volume of water. I'm not sure if adding LC to a skimmer is a good method. Perhaps dripping smaller amounts and allowing proper mixture for the LC to react with the available phosphate in the given water volume is better.

As far as filter pore size, the smaller the better. Scientific experiments show 0.45 micron filters work the best. Boomer recommends a 10 micron filter, which I would not go larger, as it will still miss some of the precipitates.

This article may be of interest:

Lanthanum chloride or lanthanum carboxylate for orthophosphate
removal in seawater aquarium - a feasibility study
YING ZHANG; KAR SONG WONG
http://aalso.org/2009presentations/Z...movalPaper.pdf


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Last edited by HighlandReefer; 12/22/2010 at 08:28 AM.
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Unread 12/22/2010, 08:32 AM   #3
r0cksteady
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Thank you for the response and links.

How important is it for the filter sock to be out of the water? ie can the bottom half of it be submerged whilst the top half is out of the water but with the overflow going into it?


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Unread 12/22/2010, 08:45 AM   #4
HighlandReefer
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I would think it would be ok as long as the filter sock is not allowed to overflow. The smaller pore size bags will clog with debris quickly.

The bottom line is, you don't want to see the water clouding in your tank.


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Unread 12/22/2010, 09:37 PM   #5
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Cliff finally somebody, YOU, for a real a answer I have been telling some lately try 5 microns. I think 0.45 is pushing things to far and will plug up really fast. A submicron, <1 mciron filter "Cold Sterilizes" water.

Scientific experiments show 0.45 micron filters work the best


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Unread 12/23/2010, 07:39 AM   #6
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I would think a series of filters starting with perhaps 75 microns and then get progressively smaller, may be the best answer for maintenance & safety. Certainly a 0.45 micron filter is a bit much as you have stated.

Personally, I would only think about using LC in a very large system where money becomes a big factor. For a regular size system, GFO would be the way to go IMHO.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 08:25 AM   #7
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I'm using Lanthanum Chloride to pull the PO4 out of my dead rock prior to seeding. I have the rock in a Rubbermaid tub with 30 gal. of RO, a powerhead and a heater. Should I be using a filter sock? In the past two weeks the PO4 reading has dropped from .29 to .12 according to my Hanna.

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Unread 12/23/2010, 08:29 AM   #8
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Just for reference, some of the smaller fish (I have only researched one small freshwater fish) have gill structures that will filter out particles down to around 10 microns in size (they state <10 microns). It seems that the concern is that the precipitates can lodge in the fish gill structures. A 5 micron filter bag may be better for small fish.

Regulation of diurnal filter feeding by a novel gill structure in Amblypharyngodon melettinus (Teleostei, Cyprinidae)
http://www.springerlink.com/content/2gc748a7a3l23hq7/


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Unread 12/23/2010, 08:33 AM   #9
Gary Majchrzak
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JMO: I would definitely use a filter sock (or other type of mechanical filter) while dosing (dilute) lanthanum chloride. I use a 10 micron filter.


here's a thread
on my method


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Unread 12/23/2010, 08:41 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stormrider27 View Post
I'm using Lanthanum Chloride to pull the PO4 out of my dead rock prior to seeding. I have the rock in a Rubbermaid tub with 30 gal. of RO, a powerhead and a heater. Should I be using a filter sock? In the past two weeks the PO4 reading has dropped from .29 to .12 according to my Hanna.

Thanks!
Mark
I would think if you rinse the rock in clean water several times to help remove any precipitants this would work.

I guess we can get carried away with too much concern regarding the LC precipitates. There are other precipitants found in our tanks as well which don't dissolve like calcium carbonate that can pose problems as well and fish seem to survive precipitation events in most cases. LC precipitant water clouding is not good in any case.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 08:46 AM   #11
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With lanthanum precipitates in the water, it can clog up filters quickly. The good part is that it helps pull more particulat matter out of the water as it clogs. Several products have lanthanum salts sold as filtration aids/clarifiers. Most larger systems that use these inject the lanthanum in filter return lines to give it time to react. The dirtier the filter gets, the more effective it is at pulling out more particles. The downside is that it reduced flow.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 08:48 AM   #12
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UVvis,

What size precipitants do the big boys filter down to or what size filter would you recommend?


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Unread 12/23/2010, 09:23 AM   #13
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Depending on the sand bed (type, condition, volume, height) a high pressure sand filter at optimal conditions is probably around a 5-10 micron filter. Lanthanum precipitates will allow the bed, as it gets dirty, to work at 2 micron, or finer.

Filtration has two important parts, pore size and flow rate. Everyone seems to latch onto the pore size, and ignore the flow rate. Smaller filter pores usually mean reduced flow.

My honest recommendation, is to go with the finest filter pore size you can without letting the flow rate suffer. Anything under 20 micron should start to be able to pull out lanthanum precipitates, and letting the filter go longer and longer will dirty the filter and allow more and finer particle entrapment.

Since most sumps aren't set up for a progressively smaller and smaller micron filter to do a full polish in one pass, I'd dirty up a sock as best as possible before adding lanthanum, and use the finest filter you can get by with to maintain your system flow. Lanthanum precipitates are somewhat dense and will settle out over time.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 09:39 AM   #14
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by UVvis View Post
Anything under 20 micron should start to be able to pull out lanthanum precipitates, and letting the filter go longer and longer will dirty the filter and allow more and finer particle entrapment.
this is exactly why I chose to run a 10 micron sock 24/7 nowadays

Quote:
Originally Posted by UVvis View Post
Since most sumps aren't set up for a progressively smaller and smaller micron filter to do a full polish in one pass, I'd dirty up a sock as best as possible before adding lanthanum, and use the finest filter you can get by with to maintain your system flow. Lanthanum precipitates are somewhat dense and will settle out over time.
I'm in full agreement except for one recommendation: don't start treatment with a dirty sock- start with a clean 10 micron sock. And change it out for another clean 10 micron (or smaller) sock once it's overflowing.

IME it's also a good idea to administer lanthanum chloride during a water change using the 'wet skimmate method' for removing old water from the system.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 09:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UVvis View Post
Depending on the sand bed (type, condition, volume, height) a high pressure sand filter at optimal conditions is probably around a 5-10 micron filter. Lanthanum precipitates will allow the bed, as it gets dirty, to work at 2 micron, or finer.

Filtration has two important parts, pore size and flow rate. Everyone seems to latch onto the pore size, and ignore the flow rate. Smaller filter pores usually mean reduced flow.

My honest recommendation, is to go with the finest filter pore size you can without letting the flow rate suffer. Anything under 20 micron should start to be able to pull out lanthanum precipitates, and letting the filter go longer and longer will dirty the filter and allow more and finer particle entrapment.

Since most sumps aren't set up for a progressively smaller and smaller micron filter to do a full polish in one pass, I'd dirty up a sock as best as possible before adding lanthanum, and use the finest filter you can get by with to maintain your system flow. Lanthanum precipitates are somewhat dense and will settle out over time.
From this it sounds like a Diatom filter is perfect as it gets down to 1micron I believe and has a decent flow rate. I might try this out next time I have a PO4 problem with my vortex xl diatom filter.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 09:50 AM   #16
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great point:

Quote:
Originally Posted by UVvis View Post
Lanthanum precipitates are somewhat dense and will settle out over time.
often overlooked!

Settling can even occur in a display tank and/or sump.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 10:09 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jason2459 View Post
From this it sounds like a Diatom filter is perfect as it gets down to 1micron I believe and has a decent flow rate. I might try this out next time I have a PO4 problem with my vortex xl diatom filter.
DE is about perfect, but you have the health aspects of the DE to deal with, and DE is a polishing filter agent. If you are using lanthanum, take care to not clog up your DE filter.

Good point Gary. If you are starting with a finer micron sock, no need to dirty it, as it will foul up fast. I was thinking for someone that doesn't have a finer sock available, to just start out with the sock dirty to get the most out of it. Clogging and overflowing means your filter is at capacity.


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Unread 12/23/2010, 10:51 AM   #18
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just before it's overflowing

is when a filter sock is working the best so let 'em gunk up real good before changing it out.

The 10 micron bags I use are poly and not readily available in aquarium supply places. They are used in the medical field for dialysis etc.

Note the potential hazards of dosing LaCl3 into a reef aquarium: alkalinity may be depleted and Tridacna clams might suffer to varying degrees.



simple progressive filter arrangement


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Unread 12/23/2010, 06:02 PM   #19
r0cksteady
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Thanks guys for all the info.

A few questions outside of micron size. Does the material matter ie. mesh bags vs fabric bags?

Also how important is it to dilute the solution as Ive just been squirting 5ml each day into my skimmer chamber which is then caught by my 200micron fabric filter sock. Is this a problem?

Is there a limit to how much you can add at one time? Can I dose 50ml leave it there for a day and then change the filter sock if I have a large ammount of P04?


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Unread 12/24/2010, 01:49 AM   #20
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Jason, It is very important to dilute it. If you do not, only some of the Lanthanum Chloride will be used up in the skimmer as there is only so much Po4 available to react with it. The rest will go right through the filter sock and then react with available Po4 that is in the sump or display tank. A 5-10 micron filter sock will only be able to filter out the combined precipitate. I use the SeaKlear Aquaria Phosphate Remover and dilute it in a 2.5g drip doser. I use 1.5ml of it per 100g of system water @ 1ppm of Po4 that needs to be removed. It is extremely important to dose slowly and never over dose. I typically shoot to get my Po4 on my larger FOWLR system down to about 0.1 and then use GFO to get it as close to 0 as possible.


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Unread 12/27/2010, 10:54 PM   #21
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Thanks again for the feedback. Im slightly confused by what youve said as my understanding was the point of the filter sock would be that it 'can' actually catch the Lanthanum Chloride without it being bonded but I have taken what youve said onboard and will dilute.

I fight with phosphate around the 0.2-0.3 mark which is obviously too high. I have a 550g system and dont have a dosing pump (as yet) if I just gravity fed it mixed with some RO/DI would this be suffice.

What ml would you recommend I mix with RO/DI? And what would the dose rate be? A few drops a second? 1 gallon per day? etc?

Thanks for taking the time to respond, its really appreciated.


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Unread 12/28/2010, 07:56 AM   #22
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The filter will not catch the lanthanum chloride, but will help catch the lanthanum phosphate which precipitates out.

The amount of lanthanum chloride you add will depend on your tank phosphate concentration and the size of the container you add LC to. If you have a 1 gallon container for example, then you would add the amount to reduce the phosphate for 1 gallon, then allow it to throughly mix in this 1 gallon and allow the precipitants to form. Then you run it through the filter to remove the lanthum phosphate. This is why when using LC it is recommended to treat the water in a side loop designed to allow the process to happen properly. Many hobbyists remove the tank water and put it in a large container and then treat this volume and filter it and then return it to the tank.


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Unread 01/21/2011, 04:36 AM   #23
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Hey Guys,

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I was wondering how long should I leave the Lanthanum Chloride in a bottle mixed with RO/DI before I start drip feeding it into my skimmer? Ie. How long does it take for it to turn from Lanthanum Chloride into Lanthanum Phosphate? And is there a suggest rate at which it should be dripping into the skimmer\sump\filter sock? eg. 1 drop per second?


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Unread 01/21/2011, 06:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0cksteady View Post
...I was wondering how long should I leave the Lanthanum Chloride in a bottle mixed with RO/DI before I start drip feeding it into my skimmer?
You can leave it in there for a very long time. However, with CO2 in the air, the lanthanum ions will eventually find carbonates to precipitate out with. If you plan to store it for a long time, drop the pH a bit.

Quote:
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How long does it take for it to turn from Lanthanum Chloride into Lanthanum Phosphate? And is there a suggest rate at which it should be dripping into the skimmer\sump\filter sock? eg. 1 drop per second?
Lanthanum chloride dissociates in water, so in solution, you just have lanthanum ions. Reaction time with phosphates/carbonates is somewhere in the range of 90-ish seconds. I'd recommend dosing it into your skimmer.

Dosing rate will depend on your Lanthanum solution concentration, tank volume size, system size, flow rates, phosphate levels and your target phosphate levels after treatment.

I'd recommend starting slowly and doing just a couple drops at first, and giving it a while to watch your system for adverse changes and to make sure your filtration is working well. Then depending on the above factors, figure out your dosing plan.


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Unread 01/21/2011, 07:49 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by r0cksteady View Post
Hey Guys,

Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I was wondering how long should I leave the Lanthanum Chloride in a bottle mixed with RO/DI before I start drip feeding it into my skimmer? Ie. How long does it take for it to turn from Lanthanum Chloride into Lanthanum Phosphate? And is there a suggest rate at which it should be dripping into the skimmer\sump\filter sock? eg. 1 drop per second?
Depending on how diluted your lanthanum solution and how much phosphate is in your system will determine how fast you should be dosing.

If your phosphate level isn't above .10 you realistically may only need one drop of your dilute lanth. per water volume in the skimmer. Such as one drop every 1-2 minutes. otherwise once the lanth. is added to the skimmer and the available phos is locked up, the rest of the lanth is going to go out and react in the tank or sump.


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