Chaeto Algae, dying? high phosphate

[shamoo]

I am currently on my second lot of Chaeto Algae. The first was lit by a full spectrum led light (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
After a couple of months i had no growth, the light broke and that was the end of that piece of chaeto.
I researched more into lighting and decided to go with a Par 38, 6500k cool white (https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...?ie=UTF8&psc=1).
I had really good growth in the first few weeks, it doubled in size. The problem now is, the chaeto is breaking up into millions of tiny pieces, not binding together and the size has shrunk again due to the amount breaking off. However the colour is a deep green, is that a healthy indication? The sump chamber where the chaeto is is full of hair algae, it over takes the section, annoyingly i spend far too much time cleaning it out, could the hair algae cause the chaeto to die? will too much po4 kill the chaeto?

For a while i have been battling my phosphate levels. I got the po4 to a half decent reading, they have been ranging from 0.2 - 0.07, with the help of dosing + reactor. My hope was that the chaeto would absorb the po4 but as soon as the reactor is deminished and dosing stops the po4 increases at a very fast rate. i believe the cause of the high po4 is my lighting, and i will be upgrading it on the next few months to AI prime HD.
I need to keep my chaeto alive and growing does anyone know the reason for it breaking up into tiny pieces? i was even thinking of changing to a cheato reactor, but surely a refugium with a larger area would be more beneficial to the aquarium than the reactor.
i can sort my lights out, but i really need to know why the chaeto is acting this way. any feedback would be
current water levels
salt - 1.025
ammonia - 0
nitrite - 0
nitrate - 10
calcium - 420
mag - 1400
Alk - 7.4
phos - 0.4 (could be a false reading as last week it was 0.15)
Tank is 9 months old

i have just done a 20% water change and cleaned / vacummed the sump, so i will re-test my water levels in 24hours

thanks

[Pslreefer]

I’ve read iron plays a role, unless I’m mistaken.

[Michael Hoaster]

It's a tricky game, balancing the needs of macros and corals. Corals like low nutrients, macros will take all they can get. If corals are your priority, I'd suggest a macro that isn't as 'greedy' as chaeto. Consider a red macro. They can get by on lower nutrients, so everybody's happy.

It sounds like your hair algae is outcompeting your chaeto at the moment. Keep removing it, while trying to favor the chaeto. Eventually you'll win the battle.

Pslreefer is right. Iron is the micro nutrient that plants use up fastest, so an iron supplement (or a water change) may help. Best of luck!

[RioReefr]

How is the flow where the chaeto is? Ideally it needs to tumble with a small pump or you at least turn it over every day. Also, is it getting any oxygen at all? Maybe a small air-stone would help with water movement, flow and oxygen.

The Chaeto I have almost doubles in size every 2 weeks. I use a cheap led plant light I purchase for under 20 bucks from amazon and give it light about 12 hours a day.

[mcgyvr]

Cause of high po4 is lighting??...huh?...was that a typo?...makes no sense..
High phosphate is from over feeding or leaching from the rock...(common with pukani rock but all others can potentially absorb/leach phosphste

[Joe0813]

I never can grow cheato. It always dies

[der_wille_zur_macht]

If you're doing it for nutrient export, just continue to harvest the hair algae. It's very effective at nutrient uptake.

If you just want Chaeto, you need to get rid of the hair algae, it'll outcompete and/or block your growth. Some algaes, including hair algae, are pretty good at low-key chemical warfare against their competitors. In aquariums, Chaeto never seems to win this battle.

Make sure iron is good. Either trial dose it, or do a big water change, and see if growth improves. I'd deal with the hair algae first so you're only looking at one variable at a time.

[Subsea]

Iodine, which is removed thru protein skimming, is another trace mineral required. If you are not doing partial water changes, you should consider dosing iodine with iron dosing.

Considering chemical warfare between algae’s just like chemical warfare between corals, I suggest you use GAC. GAC & protein skimming will remove iodine.

[shamoo]

Sorry guys, i did reply and thought it posted like normal, but it's not listed.

i meant po3 honest
i was under the impreesion that poor quality light in terms of PAR would effect the phosphate level, is lighting not as big a contribution as i thought? My sump light is on for 12hours, my DT only 6 hours. The chaeto does tumble, but its in such poor strength it just breaks up and goes into the DT.

i have read many times, that the chaeto needs to be before the skimmer, which mine is not, so maybe this is a defining factor, lesson learned. i think i will have to change my sump around (again!! ) but least i dont have to re-place the baffles.

Has anyone mixed the macro algae, red and chaeto together? I also think my RODI maybe exhusted and causing high po3. so thats getting changed.
i'm going to buy a hanna iron test kit and check the levels.

my main use for macro alage is nutrient control (phosphate)

so i'm trying to find the root cause of the phosphate. my understading are the causes of phosphates are:
over feeding
poor quality water
lighting

is there anythingi have missed? looking at that i could victim of all 3 lol
lighting, i'm not worried as i plan on upgrading soon anyway.
Water, - again, no worries as i am changing all my cartridges
feeding, i feed 1 and a half frozen cubes a day (see sig for fish stock) all fish are younger than a year old and on average 2"

[der_wille_zur_macht]

Originally Posted by shamoo

Sorry guys, i did reply and thought it posted like normal, but it's not listed.

i meant po3 honest
i was under the impreesion that poor quality light in terms of PAR would effect the phosphate level, is lighting not as big a contribution as i thought? My sump light is on for 12hours, my DT only 6 hours. The chaeto does tumble, but its in such poor strength it just breaks up and goes into the DT.

No - lighting won't directly impact nutrient levels. It WILL influence things indirectly, in the sense that algae and other nutrient consumers need light. However, a "bad" light won't "cause" phosphate levels to increase.

i have read many times, that the chaeto needs to be before the skimmer,

Not really true. Chaeto absorbs nutrients that are already broken down. Skimmers remove big organic compounds, particulates, etc - the things that eventually break down into nutrients. They don't directly compete. And at any rate, our systems have so much flow these days, I'd challenge anyone to show a "before" and "after" difference because the high flow is going to keep things mixed much faster than the skimmer or algae are influencing them.

Has anyone mixed the macro algae, red and chaeto together? I also think my RODI maybe exhusted and causing high po3. so thats getting changed.
i'm going to buy a hanna iron test kit and check the levels.

my main use for macro alage is nutrient control (phosphate)

You can mix algaes but you may get limited success - as mentioned, some algaes don't play well together.

if you're seriously doing this JUST for nutrient control, and it's not working, you could easily switch to another phosphate control method (gfo or LC for instance). Chaeto often works well at nutrient control, but it can be finnicky in some systems, and may not be worth troubleshooting.

That said, there a whole lot of other reasons to keep it, besides nutrient control.

[shamoo]

Thanks for the reply, i do plan on houseing copepods in the future when i get the refugium working, i want to also try the Triton method.
i do use a dual GFO reactor, but it gets exchusted so quickly its having little effect, the media i use is RowaPhos. i am currently dosing with Colombo Marine Phosphate EX.

I'm now getting a good idea that the phosphate level will increase only if i over feed, the water for the auto top up is poor or its leeching from the LR. i really though my lighting had an effect, its good to know that its not as important as i thought. currently i dont have corals untill i get my new lights.

What do you think of my feeding 1 and half frozen cubes a day?

[der_wille_zur_macht]

I don't think it's appropriate to judge other peoples' feeding amounts. You should feed whatever it takes to keep your livestock healthy and happy. Then, adjust your nutrient export (skimming, water changes, macro growth, phosphate reactor, LC, whatever) to accommodate that specific nutrient load. In other words, we can prescribe the method to determine feeding requirements, rather than tell you exactly how much to feed.

If you feel like your fish need 1.5 cubes a day, then feed that much, and up your nutrient exports. If you're having such a hard time keeping up, then try reducing feeding and see how the fish look after a few weeks. If they're ok, then you're all set. If they're suffering, then find another option. Switch foods, or whatever.

The only real caveat to this is that if you've been overfeeding for a long time, and your phosphate levels have been bouncing around for a long time, there's probably some trapped in the rock by now, which will act like a cushion to resist any changes you're making. So, even if your phosphate media is getting exhausted quickly, that may just be the media dealing with what the rocks are releasing now that your level is being maintained lower. Once the rocks' stores are depleted, you may not need to remove it as aggressively. So, keep going with the techniques you're using, monitor the levels, and see if it starts to level out after a few weeks or months. Try for stability at your desired level, don't shoot for zero and don't let it see-saw up and down if you can help it.

[shamoo]

Thanks for your help...

[CTaylor]

I did what Rioreefer said (but a long time ago ). So I can concur he's right. My chaeto would either not grow or start to disappear. I increased flow to my refugium, now I'm taking out a quart of it every week for overgrowth! My lighting is basic. It's a 10 gallon refugium section of my sump with a Maglight and a 20watt (?) strip led light above it. With low flow noting. Before the chaeto started to grow I had near 0 parts per BILLION phosphorous and less than 1 nitrate!. I thought that was the reason. I thought low Iron was the reason (i seem to have low iron also. I dosed that and nothing). Turned up the flow.. and **A NEW BATCH OF CHAETO**, threw out the old. and it's going very strong now. I can probably pull out even more weekly if I actually pulled out more, because it's getting very confined in the 10 gallong fuge.). DO THIS.. I bet it works. Why wouldnt it if it did for me with suiper low nutrients(?)

**My chaeto does not tumble. I never could get it do do that with the way the flow drops into my sump. I really dont think it would make a difference other than even lighting. Part of my chaeto is super dark green, part is light green. No big deal.

[Akram]

Just grow hair algae as long as it’s not in your display.

[Subsea]

Originally Posted by Akram

Just grow hair algae as long as it’s not in your display.

Some macros are more measy than others. GHA, Dino’s & Cyno all produce spores which can easily find there way into display tank.

[CTaylor]

did you increase your flow greatly yet? I just pulled out nearly a gallon after three weeks