Algae Scrubber Basics

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

What you can do, is to start a scrubber topic in the general section of RC.

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

Skimmers do not remove any nutrients. Scrubbers do.

Why don't you start a thread in the general section with this topic and see how far that gets you.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

Yes. Skimmers do not remove any nutrients. Scrubbers do.

.

What do they remove or what is your definition of nutrients? I believe they (ATS and Skimmer) complement each other quite well though. I haven't been running an ATS very long but my skimmer hasn't skipped a beat and still pulling out "crud", what ever it is, just as much as before. Plus it aerates the water quite well and working as a boost to my pH with out using chemicals in the water increasing my already highish alk levels.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Giving credit where credit is due. These aren't easy to obtain.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130233779

Clarification:

Go here

http://portal.uspto.gov/pair/PublicPair

Select Publication Number and enter: 2013-0233779

Click on Image File Wrapper and first file seems to indicate to me that it's due to be issued in 2 weeks (8/25) unless I'm misinterpreting something

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

Giving credit where credit is due. These aren't easy to obtain.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20130233779

But that's just the application right? It's not granted.

I like the mass one that's cited. That's cool.
Mass algal culture system
US 4253271 A
http://www.google.com/patents/US4253271

[Floyd R Turbo]

edited my post above yours

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

edited my post above yours

See it now. Congratulations to SantaMonica

[SantaMonica]

Thanks.

What do they remove or what is your definition of nutrients?

Nutrients for us are: Ammonia/ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, and even Copper. These are absorbed directly by algae as the main food source, especially ammonia.

Skimmers do not absorb/remove any of those. Skimmers remove protein (food) particles, which of course is food for corals. Many people think that having a skimmer running is "safety" in case a fish dies, etc. Dangerous thinking, because the skimmer will do nothing. A scrubber however will burst into growth and absorb the ammonia.

Interestingly, most ammonia comes from just everyday feeding (pee from the fish), and not from things dying. This is why sparse but continuous feeding is better than once-a-day bulk feeding.

my skimmer hasn't skipped a beat and still pulling out "crud"

Yes that is a lot of coral food particles being pulled out.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

Thanks.



Nutrients for us are: Ammonia/ammonium, Nitrite, Nitrate, Phosphate, and even Copper. These are absorbed directly by algae as the main food source, especially ammonia.

Skimmers do not absorb/remove any of those. Skimmers remove protein (food) particles, which of course is food for corals. Many people think that having a skimmer running is "safety" in case a fish dies, etc. Dangerous thinking, because the skimmer will do nothing. A scrubber however will burst into growth and absorb the ammonia.

Interestingly, most ammonia comes from just everyday feeding (pee from the fish), and not from things dying. This is why sparse but continuous feeding is better than once-a-day bulk feeding.



Yes that is a lot of coral food particles being pulled out.

My understanding is that skimmers are indiscriminate on what they remove and remove just about everything that will attach itself to the bubble which includes many inorganic compounds like calcium and organics like nitrogenous compounds (ie. nitrates, nitrites, ammonia nitrogen). Which also includes bacteria that is skimmed out that has consumed nitrates and phosphates. Which is another benefit of the skimmer to me as I do dose a carbon source to boost bacteria growth to maintain lower nitrates and phosphates. That bacteria growth also starts a baseline food chain in my tank feeding the corals, sponges, etc. There's plenty more fish poop and pee in my main display tank as well before it gets skimmed out. I feed a lot many times a day.

[hkgar]

Originally Posted by jason2459

My understanding is that skimmers are indiscriminate on what they remove and remove just about everything that will attach itself to the bubble which includes many inorganic compounds like calcium and organics like nitrogenous compounds (ie. nitrates, nitrites, ammonia nitrogen). Which also includes bacteria that is skimmed out that has consumed nitrates and phosphates. Which is another benefit of the skimmer to me as I do dose a carbon source to boost bacteria growth to maintain lower nitrates and phosphates. That bacteria growth also starts a baseline food chain in my tank feeding the corals, sponges, etc. There's plenty more fish poop and pee in my main distank as well before it gets skimmed out. I feed a lot many times a day.

Sounds like you are using a skimmer, carbon (vodka or vinegar?) dosing and an ATS to control PO4 and NO3, correct?

II ask because I toy with the idea of carbon dosing, but figured no reason because with my ATS and skimmer were sufficient, and they probably are - NO3 = 1.5 and PO4 .003. What would be an additional benefit of carbon dosing and would it really add bacteria with so little left over Nitrate to use?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by hkgar

Sounds like you are using a skimmer, carbon (vodka or vinegar?) dosing and an ATS to control PO4 and NO3, correct?

II ask because I toy with the idea of carbon dosing, but figured no reason because with my ATS and skimmer were sufficient, and they probably are - NO3 = 1.5 and PO4 .003. What would be an additional benefit of carbon dosing and would it really add bacteria with so little left over Nitrate to use?

I've always been a fan of all of the above and compliment each other. I have been running for many years now a skimmer, algae harvesting of some kind, carbon dosing(vinegar), small frequent water changes (currently multiple times a day), and ozone.

I target higher values than you mentioned.

Nitrates under 10 (currently undetectable)
Phosphates under .09 (currently around .06)


I see the water change as a basis to help remove any built up untestable unknowns and help replenish the basic chemicals everything needs. Then lots of food and lime water to add anything else needed.

Carbon dosing I've really had the most success maintaining lower nitrates and phosphate levels. GFO to bring down high PO4 values. And extreme cases lanthanum cl. Then I also really like the acetate as a food that is taken up directly by some organisms including bacteria driving up their counts which in turn becomes more food for other organisms which in turn... etc

Ozone...ZAP. Basically says it all. I don't run it 24/7. Just a few hours a day nor anywhere near the full recommended dosage.

Skimmer to me is just simple cheap filtering. It's not very efficient as a mechanical filter compared to something like filter socks or floss or diatom filters etc. Which to me is perfect as I don't want 100% efficiency or anywhere near it. I want critters to live and thrive. It's commented here and there its only about 30% efficient. I also look to it to help remove excess bacteria, boost aeration, and now help drive up pH. Plus its my ozone reactor. Win win win win all around on my book. I see no reason for me to not run one.

As for the algae harvesting. I look to it to supplement nutrient export with the skimmer with out hindering my critters that other mechanical filters would remove. In fact I look at it as helping to increase the biodiversity and a vacation home for those critters and something else for some of them to eat. Plus helping to increase pH slightly. Plus what ever marketing benefits algae may have.

[scubasteve3]

What happens if you oversize your Algae Scrubber? Could this be detrimental to your tank? Do you recommend running both an ATS and a skimmer?

What size screen would you recommend for a 40g breeder with feeding 1 cube per day? If I double the size or light both sides, can I increase the cleaning from 7 days to 14 days

[Floyd R Turbo]

worst case, you will just have a bit of trouble getting growth to get thick and/or green. Sometimes if it is vastly oversized (and thus vastly underfed), you will have trouble getting any green at all. This usually starts happening when you are 3 or 4 times the feeding, or more.

Skimmers and scrubbers do different things for the most part so running them together is not a problem.

As far as size goes I have found that a 1 cube/day screen is just really tiny and it becomes tricky to light it quite right, but it can be done. 2 cube/day screen is better and not vastly oversized if you are feeding only one cube/day.

It's always better to light both sides even if one side is a different type of light or a significantly weaker light than the other side, as the rationale is to keep the base growth alive when growth gets thick. So if one side gets thick (strong light) and the other side does not (weak light) the weakly lit side will still contribute to the base growth of the other side, allowing you to have a longer growth cycle.

As far as cleaning cycle times go, this will depend on too many factors to predict, but usually you can go longer if you are lit on both sides per the above paragraph.

HTH
Bud

[scubasteve3]

Originally Posted by Floyd R Turbo

worst case, you will just have a bit of trouble getting growth to get thick and/or green. Sometimes if it is vastly oversized (and thus vastly underfed), you will have trouble getting any green at all. This usually starts happening when you are 3 or 4 times the feeding, or more.

Skimmers and scrubbers do different things for the most part so running them together is not a problem.

As far as size goes I have found that a 1 cube/day screen is just really tiny and it becomes tricky to light it quite right, but it can be done. 2 cube/day screen is better and not vastly oversized if you are feeding only one cube/day.

It's always better to light both sides even if one side is a different type of light or a significantly weaker light than the other side, as the rationale is to keep the base growth alive when growth gets thick. So if one side gets thick (strong light) and the other side does not (weak light) the weakly lit side will still contribute to the base growth of the other side, allowing you to have a longer growth cycle.

As far as cleaning cycle times go, this will depend on too many factors to predict, but usually you can go longer if you are lit on both sides per the above paragraph.

HTH
Bud

Bud, Thanks for the quick response and great info!

So if I am building a 40g breeder with a 20g Long sump and plan to feed say 1 cube a day or 1 cube every other day, and my main goal is to run just a skimmer and ATS without a phosphate reactor, I should be OK with either the 1 cube or 2 cube screen.

Now, I do go on a lot of business trips so I could have someone watch the tank but they would most likely just do the feeding, auto top off and maybe a small water change but I highly doubt I could get them to clean my Algae Scrubber! So I'm wondering what build would let me get away with only having to clean every 1 month sometimes. When I am home, I would clean once a week but when I go on trips (sometimes for 1 month at a time), I would want the ATS to be able to keep going without having to be cleaned and be able to keep the nitrates, phosphates, etc low in the system. I thought an oversized screen would just allow the Algae to continue on growing and give you longer time between cleaning cycles. Why would it inhibit growth?

[jason2459]

Something I've noticed since bumping up the intensity of the red leds last week is my ORP has climbed over 300 which I'm never at. I've always had low orp (<300) even with using some Ozone. I've never worried about it and still don't. But every night when the ATS LEDs are on the ORP climbs quite dramatically. The past few nights so much so it's broken over 300. During the day it plummets back down of course most notably right after feedings. I'll be interested in seeing the trend as I have both sides now at higher intensities.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Something I've noticed since bumping up the intensity of the red leds last week is my ORP has climbed over 300 which I'm never at. I've always had low orp (<300) even with using some Ozone. I've never worried about it and still don't. But every night when the ATS LEDs are on the ORP climbs quite dramatically. The past few nights so much so it's broken over 300. During the day it plummets back down of course most notably right after feedings. I'll be interested in seeing the trend as I have both sides now at higher intensities.

Weird when see the post above it looks cut off. But when quoting it the entire post shows up.

[jason2459]

Oh well.


Here's a graphing showing over the past week since bumping up the intensity of the LEDs on one side the ORP has for once climbed over 300 consistently.

The red line is the LEDs on and coordinates with the ORP climbing quite a bit more then normal. I normally see the up and down but not that much up to over 300. Only thing I can think of that's changed is the intensity of the LEDs on the one side.

Past 7 days from the Apex


Also another view from reeftronics

[Floyd R Turbo]

Originally Posted by scubasteve3

Bud, Thanks for the quick response and great info!

So if I am building a 40g breeder with a 20g Long sump and plan to feed say 1 cube a day or 1 cube every other day, and my main goal is to run just a skimmer and ATS without a phosphate reactor, I should be OK with either the 1 cube or 2 cube screen.

Now, I do go on a lot of business trips so I could have someone watch the tank but they would most likely just do the feeding, auto top off and maybe a small water change but I highly doubt I could get them to clean my Algae Scrubber! So I'm wondering what build would let me get away with only having to clean every 1 month sometimes. When I am home, I would clean once a week but when I go on trips (sometimes for 1 month at a time), I would want the ATS to be able to keep going without having to be cleaned and be able to keep the nitrates, phosphates, etc low in the system. I thought an oversized screen would just allow the Algae to continue on growing and give you longer time between cleaning cycles. Why would it inhibit growth?

The problem becomes detachment, so yeah you could oversize the screen but if it grows thick enough, then you start to have layers dying off and this can dump nutrients back into the tank. I think it would be better to just teach someone how to clean it, they should only have to do it once for each month that you're gone, maybe twice.

[jason2459]

The ORP really shot up last night with both sides on high and seems to have leveled off at 333 for the day as the LEDs went off at 11:30. I've always monitored ORP but have never tried to control it. But this will be the first time I have to actually watch it now and may for once have to shut down the ozone completely due to high ORP. Never would have thought I would have that situation. It's not a problem but it was not something I would have expected.

[SantaMonica]

I'm wondering what build would let me get away with only having to clean every 1 month

This is where an upflow scrubber fits right in. They can go a long time without detachment, and importantly, without overflowing. I just finished a daily picture series of an un-cleaned upflow scrubber, and once the growth got 2" thick it stayed that way until harvesting. A waterfall scrubber would have had it's roots die and detach, or it would have overflowed, or both by now.

[nerose]

Up flow scrubber

[mattberrytr]

Originally Posted by SantaMonica

This is where an upflow scrubber fits right in. They can go a long time without detachment, and importantly, without overflowing. I just finished a daily picture series of an un-cleaned upflow scrubber, and once the growth got 2" thick it stayed that way until harvesting. A waterfall scrubber would have had it's roots die and detach, or it would have overflowed, or both by now.

A waterfall scrubber would most likely have removed an order of magnitude more nutrients from the water in the same period of time. A decent waterfall scrubber would have an emergency drain, so there's very little risk of anything overflowing.

[jason2459]

Not sure either of the two statements above are entirely accurate. lol

[mattberrytr]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Not sure either of the two statements above are entirely accurate. lol

I am, but there's always exceptions.

[wildman926]

Originally Posted by mattberrytr

A decent waterfall scrubber would have an emergency drain, so there's very little risk of anything overflowing.

That is correct. You can see it on mine, the pvc pipe exiting to the right.

[KAMIKAZE0214]

Quick question, I have a DIY waterfall algae scrubber with red and blue LED's but I can't seem to find the thread on how strong I should start the LEDs with a fresh screen.

I have them at about 30%. Any help would be appreciated thanks!