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Unread 04/16/2009, 09:38 AM   #826
der_wille_zur_macht
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Quote:
Originally posted by dogstar74

Now my theory would probably change if I was trying to light a 24 inch deep SPS keeping 300 gallon tank.
See, thing is, that's most likely my next tank (and one I would want to keep for at least a decade or two), hence my concerns. At that size, initial setup price differences are magnified, but so are ongiong costs.

And let me just say that even if no one bothers to answer my questions, I appreciate all the effort the various folks experimenting with this are putting in to documenting their results on this forum. That'll make it trivial for us late-adopters to build a functional system.


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Unread 04/16/2009, 10:15 AM   #827
james3370
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Quote:
Originally posted by kcress
BTW you could go buy a single tap.
that's what i did. decided on 6-32 screws at lowes & then over in the tool dept, they sell the correct drill & the tap together in a "kit" for about $5

Quote:
Originally posted by kcress
james3370; That single U- channel is a great idea!
thanks i was looking at the hollow aluminum square tubing & it was kinda pricey for this lil project & then i stumbled across the U-tubing......


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Unread 04/16/2009, 11:09 AM   #828
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Quote:
Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht
See, thing is, that's most likely my next tank (and one I would want to keep for at least a decade or two), hence my concerns. At that size, initial setup price differences are magnified, but so are ongiong costs.

And let me just say that even if no one bothers to answer my questions, I appreciate all the effort the various folks experimenting with this are putting in to documenting their results on this forum. That'll make it trivial for us late-adopters to build a functional system.

I look forward to seeing what you decide for that tank. Please be sure to keep us updated!

I considered going all LEDs on my 220, but just realized the amount of work to wire up that many LEDs and pucks over a large area with a 30" deep tank would be alot of commitment, in addition to $$$. So for now I went with T5s and LEDs for shimmer and supplementation (my LEDs are the real actinics, since I am not happy with any T5 actinics).

So for me this is a little foray into the LEDs. If I like what I see, I will consider going all LED in the future. But part of me is also waiting for super-high-wattage LEDs to become more available so that less LEDs are required. And I don't want to use narrow optics either, I want diffused lighting coming in at angles as well as downward rays.

How you want the light to enter the tank changes things. Narrow optics means downward rays and better % of light entering the tank, so less total light is required... but also requires LEDs spaced at small but regular intervals. Going for diffused lighting means you need MORE light, but dont have to be as evenly spaced (aka what Soundwave did). So its hard to come up with a formula for how many LEDs, as theres just so many options.

Tonight I finish installing the last of my T5 ballasts, and then hopefully this weekend I finish mounting the rest of the LEDs (gotta cut more heatsinks up, got 3 more pucks to wire and thats it).


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Current Tank Info: 220g Display, 70g sump, 35g frag, 50g fuge, 2x250w MH, 1x400w MH, 2x80w T5, 2x140w VHO Actinic
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Unread 04/16/2009, 11:41 AM   #829
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I've decided to add a nano reef into my system just to try an LED lighting setup.

I figure, I put them on my motorcycle and loved them, I put them in my 75 vette and love it,
I might as well put them on my fishtank too.


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Unread 04/16/2009, 12:30 PM   #830
wuelfman
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i am really looking to change my lighting in my tank
this thread is really interesting.
i am in the middle of tearing down and redoing my tank (72lx30wx24h) 225 gallon
trying to go as low watts as i can using Hydor Koralia Water Circulation Pumps.
and looking into led lights
what about these led lights?
http://www.reefbuilders.com/2009/04/...eds/#more-6339
would these be enough to light a tank my size?
thanks for any input


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Unread 04/16/2009, 12:40 PM   #831
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I did a quick search and found some PAR tests done on those powerbrites:

http://www.exotic-aquarium.com/testresults.html

didnt have time to look at the details but on first glance the numbers are impressive. prices here, http://www.exotic-aquarium.com/sub/ledprice.jpg

not sure where to buy em


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Current Tank Info: 220g Display, 70g sump, 35g frag, 50g fuge, 2x250w MH, 1x400w MH, 2x80w T5, 2x140w VHO Actinic
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Unread 04/16/2009, 12:51 PM   #832
wuelfman
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ive been to the shop that sells them. hes changing over his halides to led
they look pretty good
but i like to over research stuff before i buy
i dont think i could build them like you guys ( so i thought i would ask the some of you guys that are building them )
just wondering if they could light up a large tank


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Unread 04/16/2009, 02:11 PM   #833
DeathWish302
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Quote:
Originally posted by wuelfman
ive been to the shop that sells them. hes changing over his halides to led
they look pretty good
but i like to over research stuff before i buy
i dont think i could build them like you guys ( so i thought i would ask the some of you guys that are building them )
just wondering if they could light up a large tank
This place isn't too difficult to get to from SMF is it? I'm traveling to Sacramento next week (final destination Stockton) and will have to swing by and see those lights in action. Worth the stop?


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Current Tank Info: 175gal. 3-tier Reef, 400W/250W Radiums, LED/CFL Par38 Mangrove Lagoon 12g Aquapod GBTA 'sterile' tank w/ DIY LED Lighting
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Unread 04/16/2009, 03:02 PM   #834
rcgates
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Quote:
Originally posted by DeathWish302
This place isn't too difficult to get to from SMF is it? I'm traveling to Sacramento next week (final destination Stockton) and will have to swing by and see those lights in action. Worth the stop?
not at all, come out of the airport and get on 5 south then pick up 50/99, then 99 south.


http://maps.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTEx...493816&zoom=13

Starting on AIRPORT BLVD
Take ramp onto I-5 S toward SACRAMENTO/YUBA CITY - go 9.7 mi
Take the SAN FRANCISCO/FRESNO exit onto US-50 E toward FRESNO (CA-99) - go 2.5 mi
Take the RENO/FRESNO exit onto CA-99 S toward FRESNO - go 3.6 mi
Take the 47TH AVE WEST exit onto 47TH AVE - go 0.4 mi
Turn Left on MARTIN L KING BLVD - go 0.3 mi
Turn Left on FRANKLIN BLVD - go 0.1 mi


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Unread 04/16/2009, 03:12 PM   #835
DeathWish302
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Thanks Craig! That's awesome that I don't have to venture only ~0.4mi from my route to Stk.


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Save 'Wild' Nemo and his Nem.! Would you transplant a Redwood b/c it looks good with birds in the backyard??? Buy CB fish and Captive-Cloned nems.

Current Tank Info: 175gal. 3-tier Reef, 400W/250W Radiums, LED/CFL Par38 Mangrove Lagoon 12g Aquapod GBTA 'sterile' tank w/ DIY LED Lighting
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Unread 04/16/2009, 04:51 PM   #836
kcress
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Quote:
Originally posted by der_wille_zur_macht
[B] This raises a question - how do we know how much heatsink we need?
You have enough heat sink if you are meeting your device junction temperature requirements.

Quote:
I've seen references in threads to the brightness and life of LEDs depending on junction temperature.
Yes, all semiconductors have life times. They are essentially insanely pure elements that have highly controlled other elements mixed uniformly into the crystal lattices that define the ICs characteristics. Overtime these 'mixtures' will change because of migration of the various elements. As the temperature increases this process speeds up. It doubles for every 10 degrees. So an LED in a sealed bag may last 300 years before it would have issues with eventual migration changes. But heat that bugger up to 140C and you are now talking just a few years before the process results in marked changes,(this is why the brightness decreases with time). Hotter yet, and you will get physical melting and immediate destruction.

The manufacturers do accelerated studies and provide numbers for lifetime. If you run them at a lower temperature the lifetime climbs dramatically.

Quote:
Can we measure that easily in mocked-up designs to experimentally arrive at a good choice for a heatsink?
No. An engineer would get all the details and do the extensive calculations needed to assure that the LED would stay cool enough. Then would still have to test and confirm the results. Easier is to just use overkill as a DIY.


Quote:
When exploring these creative designs, how do we know if we're moving heat away from the chip fast enough?
You need a way to measure the LED's temperature. Makers use miniature temp probes. Most LEDs are specified to have an actual junction temperature,(the die inside), according to the temperature of something on the outside. For semiconductors it is often the case temperature. The standard, shaking out for LEDs, is the lead temperature. Often a specific lead.

The easiest method now days is to just use a temp gun. Get it right down to the lead and read the maximum detected temperature. Consider the lead to be that temperature. See how that relates to the data sheet. This will tell you if you're design is adequate or not.

Quote:
I'm also struggling to understand how one would decide how many LEDs to put over a tank. I suppose one method is to just copy the commercial fixtures, in terms of lumen-density (i.e. if a commercial filter has 10 LEDs per square foot and they're 100 lumens each, then we need 1,000 lumens/square foot).
That is a fairly reliable method. Keep in mind commercial units are going to be pushing the limits on everything. Just bright enough, just cool enough, etc.


Quote:
How do you account for adding optics to the LEDs into the mix? Comparing different reflectors for the MH? Other things I'm not thinking about?
Short of a bunch of math you just try it. Even engineers designing this stuff would try everything out to try to find any gotchas.

Quote:
It seems that the trend is to drive these LEDs near their maximum current, rather than their point of maximum efficiency. Is this simply because it's perceived to be cheaper to buy fewer LEDs and drive them higher, vs buying more LEDs and driving them more efficiently? How do you choose the current to run a particular LED at?
It's not perceived! It's real. The public is notorious for only caring about the initial purchase price. They don't generally give a twit about efficiency nor do they even understand it. LED hardware is quite expensive! To compete makers must get the maximum they can out of the minimum hardware and still meet a product family warranty. The buyer sees: PAR then PRICE. They compare those values, so that is what the makers focus on.

Luckily DYIers can go beyond that.


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Unread 04/16/2009, 06:39 PM   #837
widmer
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Thank you kcress for laying a good foundation here on what exactly LEDs are, and how they work. That was a very good read.


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Unread 04/16/2009, 07:09 PM   #838
Yossarian99
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I'll chime in that I did some limited testing with my heatsinks. Each had 24 of the Q5 LEDs. The heatsinks were 5.25" X 10". The heatsinks got to about 104 F without a fan, and ran at about 75F with the fan running.

Because of this, I initially mounted the heatsinks in my hood without the fans. But then I found the temp went up to about 120F before I switched it off and decided to wire in the fans. Now everything is kept at around 78F in the hood.

I think the heatsinks are probably overkill from a technical standpoint, but based on kcress' wisdom, it's certainly better to err on the side of caution with a DIY build. The cooler we can keep things, the longer it will last.


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Unread 04/16/2009, 08:42 PM   #839
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Quote:
Originally posted by widmer
Thank you kcress for laying a good foundation here on what exactly LEDs are, and how they work. That was a very good read.

+1, some very interesting perspective in there.


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Current Tank Info: 220g Display, 70g sump, 35g frag, 50g fuge, 2x250w MH, 1x400w MH, 2x80w T5, 2x140w VHO Actinic
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Unread 04/17/2009, 12:00 AM   #840
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Thanks folks! Always nice to be able to pass knowledge to folks seriously interested about something.

Yossarian99; Welcome to RC! Thanks for that small but very demonstrative bit of info. It's a typically expected result that shows how having contingencies like optional fans can work to make projects more successful. Fans could mean you can run your LEDs harder and still have good lifetimes.

Yossarian99, how did you measure your heatsink temps?


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Unread 04/17/2009, 09:15 AM   #841
Yossarian99
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I just used a small instant-read cooking thermometer I attached to the heatsink with the aid of some heatsink compound and tape. Probably not the most reliable method, but the numbers still gave a good idea.

I'm now using an electronic temperature probe just measuring the air temperature in the top part of the hood. It'e probably not very reliable in this configuration, but the lead right now is too short to bring it right to the heatsink.


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Unread 04/17/2009, 09:42 AM   #842
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soundwave, the buckpuck could handle 2 of 6 string of LED, but from your part list, look like you wired 1 for each 6 string. Is there a reason? Thanks.


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Unread 04/17/2009, 10:45 AM   #843
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I was informed that 6 was the recommended max for each puck. Where did you see that they can do two strings? If that is possible, I may add more LEDs to my setup.

Because of the new lighting, I've found myself acquiring more and more sps to test the coloration and growth. So far, so good.


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Unread 04/17/2009, 10:45 AM   #844
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What's the Vf of your LEDs again? Each puck has 32v output, and its recommended to leave 2v buffer, meaning 30 is really the most Vf you want.... I thought you were using just under 24 volts per buck???


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Current Tank Info: 220g Display, 70g sump, 35g frag, 50g fuge, 2x250w MH, 1x400w MH, 2x80w T5, 2x140w VHO Actinic
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Unread 04/17/2009, 11:26 AM   #845
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Quote:
Originally posted by ReefEnabler
I look forward to seeing what you decide for that tank. Please be sure to keep us updated!
Certainly will, but construction is probably a year or two off so don't hold your breath.

(hopefully by then, XR-E's are cheaper!)


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Unread 04/17/2009, 11:46 AM   #846
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uuuugh, now i keep looking at my biocube 8 thinking "i can get a spare hood from nanotuners.com for $60. i have several old laptop power supplies laying around, i wonder how many LEDs i'll need....."




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so I can't understand anything they say.

there's no place like 127.0.0.1

It's a shame that stupidity isn't painful....

Current Tank Info: currently tankless....but planning an AIO
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Unread 04/17/2009, 11:51 AM   #847
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I was asked about the driver that I used. I used it for the simplicity of just plugging it in without another power source like a PC power supply. This was great to simplify the 6 LED strand that I used. However, that would pose huge problems in a large array, as you can only drive 6 LEDs with the Xitanium driver, and you would need a new power cord for every driver. Therefore you'd need several power strips just to plug the light into.

So in conclusion, the buckpucks could all be wired to the power source you choose so long as the voltage and current requirements are met. Thus soundwave's construct is more conducive to any lighting scheme not intended for a nano requiring only 6 LEDs.

Cheers
Aaron


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Unread 04/17/2009, 12:54 PM   #848
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Dogstar,

You could probably wire the inputs of all the line drivers into a single power cord (using a terminal strip, or a suitable wire connector). The only limitation is not to exceed the rated current draw on the suppling power cord/circuit.

Still, I find the line drivers to be much more expensive, so in a larger project (like mine - 48 LEDs), I chose a DC power supply and DC voltage drivers (buckpucks).


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Unread 04/17/2009, 02:54 PM   #849
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Just to give you guys some feedback on the last week.

After further discussion, I was able to get LEDsupply to provide me my missing parts. I'm happy and ready to start on my project, though it shouldn't have taken this long.

I was furious at them at first, but they came through the second time around. So now, I'm happier customer :-)

Can't wait to get started! I just have to make sure all of LEDs work now. hehe.

Btw, do you guys use any shield to block the leds from water splashes and salt creep?

Quote:
Originally posted by fernandokng
I doubt the delivery guy opened anything. I think the worst feeling, other than losing the money, is being called a liar. You pay for something, and when you don't get it's bad enough. But then be called a liar when you're trying to sort things out, and get blamed for things you clearly did not do is just horrific.

He's like "I know people like you, and you're lying". I'm not an idiot (or blind), and it's pretty easy to tell the box was empty with the exception of the optics. Telling me to go check the box again and again doesn't help me much. And then he think he's trying to do me a favor by offering to charge me again, but only at 50%. I never flat about blamed him that he screwed up, and only said that there might have been some mix up in the process and waited patiently. Of course though, he did not hesitate to call me a liar.

For those people who have gotten their products, I'm glad you had a great experience. Based on my experience though, if you have any issues after your order, you can kiss your money good bye. Their kind of service can be summarized by reading their "no return policy", and I should have been more skeptical. I couldn't have presented my case anymore honestly than I had, and I don't hope this doesn't happen to the other reefers.

I also told him to visit ReefCentral, to see that I'm actually not a scam artist, and I was doing this legitimately for my tank. He said something along the lines of "I don't care about what you're doing for your reef tank, etc."

Ironically, today, I got my other LEDs from DealExtreme.com, which is based out of Hong Kong. Who would have imagined I'd be ripped off by a US company instead of an HK one. Crazy huh. Now I have to find another place to get the buckpucks, the blue LEDs, and the optic holders.

Good luck to everyone on their future LED purchases.



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Unread 04/17/2009, 03:13 PM   #850
Yossarian99
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Fernando,

Glad to hear you got that mess sorted out. It's good when a business recognizes the value of keeping a customer happy

On my build, I haven't yet installed a splash shield, but I'm hoping to get some acrylic over the weekend to serve this purpose. It's going to mean I have to cut ventilation holes for the fan intakes now, but that's not a big deal.

I don't think I mentioned in my previous posts, but I just slapped the stuff into an old All-Glass canopy ('All-Glass' is the brand name, not the construction - it's just plastic).

In any case, even without splashes, exposure to the salt air can rapidly corrode some components, so protection is very important.


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