Enough pods for mandarin???

[Reefer1991]

I know it is best to have a refugium to sustain pods for a mandarin and I am willing to add one if necessary , but I am wondering if I could make it work without one. I have a 90 gallon tank with a 20g sump. There is 90 lbs of live rock. The link below is a video I took of a little crevice in one of the rocks.

https://plus.google.com/107054426560...ts/Abr5KDm4zPC

Literally every nook and cranny of every rock has that many pods. Do i most likey have enough to sustain a mandarin? If not, what would be the best way to go about adding a refugium to my sump? Theres not much room in the stand, hence why I'd rather be able to keep the mandarin without the fuge. Anyone have any thoughts on if it looks like I have enough pods? I have some lr rubble in the sump. At night you can see all of the pods swimming around the sandbed.

[Rilelen]

How long has the tank been up? A mature 90g tank with 90 pounds of live rock is probably fine, assuming you don't have any other critters around that will eat them (I'd guess you don't currently have any big pod eaters in the tank, given your video).

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by Rilelen

How long has the tank been up? A mature 90g tank with 90 pounds of live rock is probably fine, assuming you don't have any other critters around that will eat them (I'd guess you don't currently have any big pod eaters in the tank, given your video).

The tank is coming up on 6 months I believe. You're correct, I don't have any other big pod eaters. I have 2 clowns that I see peck at some on the glass every once in a while but that's about it. I am adding a coral beauty and watchman goby in the next couple of weeks if they're cupramine treatment goes well, but they don't really eat pods much either.

[MondoBongo]

a 90 gallon, rock heavy, no competition, 6 months old is a pretty good jumping off point for keeping a dragonet.

i'd feel pretty good about it if i were in your shoes.

just a note, dragonets do not tolerate copper based medications well, or most meds, so you will want to adjust your QT/intake procedure to accommodate that. i would never treat a dragonet with copper based meds.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

a 90 gallon, rock heavy, no competition, 6 months old is a pretty good jumping off point for keeping a dragonet.

i'd feel pretty good about it if i were in your shoes.

just a note, dragonets do not tolerate copper based medications well, or most meds, so you will want to adjust your QT/intake procedure to accommodate that. i would never treat a dragonet with copper based meds.

Sweet! I feel a lot better now after hearing that. I have had pods in my tank practically since it cycled. I'm not sure what they came in on because I started with dry rock. Must've come in on a couple frags and just took off in my tank.

Many people recommend not quarantining dragonets due to there thick slime coat but I'm a little weary of that. They are still susceptible to internal parasites and what not right? I think I will do atleast a week of observation and try to get him eating frozen. I will probably leave my 20g qt up and running and start a separate 10g just for him. I have lr rubble in my sump that I could alternate out each day for pods, but I'd rather not do that because I wouldn't feel right putting it back in my dt. Could he go for a week without eating while I watch him? Not that I really want to starve him for a week either lol.

[Nick_Northern]

I would train it to eat frozen before you add to your DT and get it eating from a feeder, better yet get the LFS to train it onto frozen before you buy it!

My setup is similar to yours 90g, 20g sump, 90lbish of rock and I added a captive bred male green mandarin 6 months ago. Although captive bred once it went in the tank and started feasting on the pod population it wasn't interested in prepared foods at all so I have been adding pods to keep him happy, I then decided to try training him back on to prepared foods using a feeder and he's now back to eating frozen cyclops, baby brine and has started to try and chase down brine/mysis when I feed the other fish. He now visits the feeder every hour or so for a snack! Many others have had success using feeders for wild caught fish also.

I added a coral beauty at the same time as the mandarin and I should point out, as was kindly pointed out to me in a previous post that dwarf angels are also incredibly efficient pod hunters and can easily outcompete mandarins so your population will likely dwindle in time. If you can buy captive bred then I would do so, if not from what I have read supposedly spotted mandarins are easier to train followed by female greens. I also added a few rubble pile into the display to act as pod havens.

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by Nick_Northern

I would train it to eat frozen before you add to your DT and get it eating from a feeder, better yet get the LFS to train it onto frozen before you buy it!

My setup is similar to yours 90g, 20g sump, 90lbish of rock and I added a captive bred male green mandarin 6 months ago. Although captive bred once it went in the tank and started feasting on the pod population it wasn't interested in prepared foods at all so I have been adding pods to keep him happy, I then decided to try training him back on to prepared foods using a feeder and he's now back to eating frozen cyclops, baby brine and has started to try and chase down brine/mysis when I feed the other fish. He now visits the feeder every hour or so for a snack! Many others have had success using feeders for wild caught fish also.

I added a coral beauty at the same time as the mandarin and I should point out, as was kindly pointed out to me in a previous post that dwarf angels are also incredibly efficient pod hunters and can easily outcompete mandarins so your population will likely dwindle in time. If you can buy captive bred then I would do so, if not from what I have read supposedly spotted mandarins are easier to train followed by female greens. I also added a few rubble pile into the display to act as pod havens.

Did you already have an established population of pods or did you add the mandarin and then added pods? I'm hoping I have an established population to where they will reproduce quick enough to keep up with the dragonet.

As for the lfs, I don't have any stores around here that I trust. They are all ich and fluke infested. I will probably get one off live aquaria. Maybe off divers den if they have one on there in a week when Im ready to buy one. I think I might qt him a week. I don't want him to starve in qt so I don't think im going to keep him in it too long. I might not qt him tho since many say not to, but i still may.... not sure if im up for the risk lol. I'll try and get him eating prepared foods during that time. If he doesnt eat it in that time, like I said, I hope I have enough pods to sustain him. I see quite a lot in the rocks, sump, and swimming all over the sand bed.
Before I started the cp treatment there were pods in my QT and my coral beauty didn't pay much attention to them. He really just went for the mysis shrimp and would peck at a pod every now and then. He wouldn't be too much of a worry I don't think.

[JustinM]

I would definitely qt him. Yes they have a thick slime coat but they will still bring ich to your tank, and they aren't resistant to velvet and other parasites you don't want in your tank.

Depending on the mandarin you want. I have had lots of luck getting the spotted mandarin to eat frozen and the green mandarin to eat nutramar ova.

Fwiw, we had qt'd all of our fish, then we added a mandarin without qt. Needless to say they are all in cooper(cupramine) now.

Best of luck!

Justin

[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by theshocker

I would definitely qt him. Yes they have a thick slime coat but they will still bring ich to your tank, and they aren't resistant to velvet and other parasites you don't want in your tank.

Depending on the mandarin you want. I have had lots of luck getting the spotted mandarin to eat frozen and the green mandarin to eat nutramar ova.

Fwiw, we had qt'd all of our fish, then we added a mandarin without qt. Needless to say they are all in cooper(cupramine) now.

Best of luck!

Justin

Thanks Justin, that convinced me.... im qting him lol. Sorry to hear about your fish. How long would you recommend I qt? I have maybe 4 softball sized rocks in my sump I could use in the qt for him but I doubt the pod count would last very long. I think ill qt maybe a week, and if I get him eating frozen then I will do 2 or 3 weeks since he won't be starving.

Sorry I guess I should've specified haha. I am most likely getting a green mandy, but I'm not sure because I really like the spotted ones too. I'll purchase some nutramar and try feeding him some of that, mysis, and rods fish eggs. I'm going to setup a separate qt that way I don't have to wait for the coral beauty and gobies qt time to finish. The tanks 6 months old and I only have 2 clowns because the qt process is taking so long for those guys lol. I can't wait to get some movement in the tank. Ive been buying a lot of coral in the meantime.

[JustinM]

Since my tank has ich, I'm qt'ing 76 days. He is in a 20 long with about 40 pounds of rock too that i seed once a week with pods.

You could tank transfer him then observe for a few weeks, so a minimum of 4 weeks. My mandy ate nutramar right away. It sucks, it's hard, it's well worth it! Best of luck!

[MondoBongo]

i wouldn't rely on the fish taking frozen. neither of mine are much interested in prepared foods.

i would see about setting up a fully cycled "QT" tank for isolation and observation. using some rock from the DT, and maybe a big ole lump of chaeto in there, and whatever other macro/rock/sponges you can put together.

if you started a second tank and let it sit a few weeks with ghost feeding you would probably be able to have a population of pods enough to sustain a short QT period while you observe and attempt to train on frozen.

when i was bringing in new fish regularly i had a fully cycled system i kept as what i called "grow out", where the fish would reside for some time after tank transfer for observation, and to generally get acclimated. i tore it down when i was done adding fish, but having a secondary system like that is extremely useful.

mine wasn't fancy. just a 20 long with small 10g sump, ato, and some second hand t5 lights i procured.

[Nick_Northern]

Originally Posted by Reefer1991

Did you already have an established population of pods or did you add the mandarin and then added pods? I'm hoping I have an established population to where they will reproduce quick enough to keep up with the dragonet.

Tank had been running for 6 months before I added the mandarin, no other pod predators present before then. You might be fine with no other supplementary feedings just keep an eye on the fishes shape, but it doesn't hurt to get them eating other foods and it's apparently easier to do this before you add them to the tank, ie keep them in a breeder basket or similar before releasing. I had to train mine in tank which has taken me a couple of months.

[Nick_Northern]

Originally Posted by MondoBongo

i wouldn't rely on the fish taking frozen. neither of mine are much interested in prepared foods.

Did you try to train them? I can only speak from experience with a captive bred mandarin but I followed suggestions from people who have had great success switching wild caught onto prepared foods.

I'd imagine its still important to have a healthy pod population for it to feed on but for me knowing I can feed it prepared foods took some of the stress out of worrying whether it had enough to eat in a tank which is probably borderline in terms of a self sustaining population

[Chriss614]

Not to distract from this thread but I had a quick Mandarin related question after reading this thread. So if I have a decent size fuge section in my sump could I use that to QT the mandarin? I would first put it through TTM and some other precautionary treatment and then move it to the fuge to observe and get it on frozen. That way it has plenty of pods from the chaeto and is isolated from other fish while it is being trained on frozen. I'm not sure if this would apply to the OP but I would love the answer.

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[JustinM]

Originally Posted by Chriss614

Not to distract from this thread but I had a quick Mandarin related question after reading this thread. So if I have a decent size fuge section in my sump could I use that to QT the mandarin? I would first put it through TTM and some other precautionary treatment and then move it to the fuge to observe and get it on frozen. That way it has plenty of pods from the chaeto and is isolated from other fish while it is being trained on frozen. I'm not sure if this would apply to the OP but I would love the answer.

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If you were to make sure no diseases/parasites were brought in with the mandarin then yes.

Mandarins are quite easy to get to eat prepared foods if you're willing to/have the time to put into it. Spotted mandarins in my experience eat much better. My LFS, their spotted mandarins all eat prepared foods.

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by Chriss614

Not to distract from this thread but I had a quick Mandarin related question after reading this thread. So if I have a decent size fuge section in my sump could I use that to QT the mandarin? I would first put it through TTM and some other precautionary treatment and then move it to the fuge to observe and get it on frozen. That way it has plenty of pods from the chaeto and is isolated from other fish while it is being trained on frozen. I'm not sure if this would apply to the OP but I would love the answer.

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If that fuge and sump are part of your display tank then you can't use it for quarantine.
The primary idea of quarantine is the isolation of new arrivals from the established stock in the display system so that diseases the newcomers may have won't endanger your old fish.

For quarantine you need an isolated system.

As for having a refugium or not: if you have any fish that rely on pods (and are generally particularly good at hunting them down), I would strongly advise to have some form of reservoir where pods are safe from predation. If you already have a sump it should be possible to use a part of it with low flow as a refugium.
Without any ​from of pod reservoir pod eating fish may quickly wipe out pod populations.


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[Chriss614]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

If that fuge and sump are part of your display tank then you can't use it for quarantine.
The primary idea of quarantine is the isolation of new arrivals from the established stock in the display system so that diseases the newcomers may have won't endanger your old fish.

For quarantine you need an isolated system.

As for having a refugium or not: if you have any fish that rely on pods (and are generally particularly good at hunting them down), I would strongly advise to have some form of reservoir where pods are safe from predation. If you already have a sump it should be possible to use a part of it with low flow as a refugium.
Without any ​from of pod reservoir pod eating fish may quickly wipe out pod populations.


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Good to know about the refugium. All I can do in terms of QT with space constraints is TTM, prazi, and formalin so I just I have to hope that it eliminates all bad disease, I also only buy from fellow reefers. I mainly wanted to use the fuge as a training area for feeding and to get new arrivals unstressed.

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[MondoBongo]

Originally Posted by Nick_Northern

Did you try to train them? I can only speak from experience with a captive bred mandarin but I followed suggestions from people who have had great success switching wild caught onto prepared foods.

I'd imagine its still important to have a healthy pod population for it to feed on but for me knowing I can feed it prepared foods took some of the stress out of worrying whether it had enough to eat in a tank which is probably borderline in terms of a self sustaining population

yes, i did. my scooter will occasionally take small myses shrimp, but the only thing my mandy ever liked was nutramar ova.

i've seen it both ways. some dragonets take to prepared foods readily, others do not. that's why i don't like to advocate it as a strategy for their care, it's too dependent on the individual fish.

i like to think of it as a good backup plan or a nice-to-have, but i always plan on their primary food source to be foraging in the tank.

[JustinM]

Nutramar ova will hold a mandarin off through qt. IMO you have a better chance of getting a mandarin to eat in QT than giving it a 20 long with a ball of chaeto unless you're adding pods. I add pods once a week and have 40 lbs of LR and they're gone in a day. If it wasn't for nutramar, he would die. A mandarin in qt will have to learn how to eat or you will have to supply pods during it.

[JustinM]

Originally Posted by theshocker

If you were to make sure no diseases/parasites were brought in with the mandarin then yes.

Mandarins are quite easy to get to eat prepared foods if you're willing to/have the time to put into it. Spotted mandarins in my experience eat much better. My LFS, their spotted mandarins all eat prepared foods.

Misread the original question. I would never advise using a Refugium as a QT. To train a mandarin yes but kill all parasites first!

[Reefer1991]

I will add live rock rubble from my display and that will atleast give him a small supply of pods to munch on while I try nutramar and what not. I will also seed filter pads in my dt which will make the qt cycled. Last time I did that I also got a decent pod population in the qt from the filter pad. I am not too worried about him eating frozen because I honestly feel that I have enough pods to sustain him although i would feel a lot better knowing he will eat frozen if the pods somehow get depleted.

I don't have a fuge so I can't do what the other person is planning on doing. If I put him in my sump with my lr rubble after I insured he had no parasites, he would be able to swim freely around my skimmer and return pump which isn't ideal. I am most likely going to do a 2-3 week observation and put him straight in my display if no parasites or illnesses show. I don't have all of the supplies for ttm nor do I really want to do that. I prefer cp and hypo for treatments(I'm not going to put the mandarin through either). Do they take prazi pro well? I could give him some prazi treatments while I observe to treat for internal parasites.

[Chriss614]

Originally Posted by theshocker

Misread the original question. I would never advise using a Refugium as a QT. To train a mandarin yes but kill all parasites first!

To clarify, I understand that Refugiums cannot be used as a QTs. I was asking under the pretense that the fish was treated with regular QT protocol (which for me is TTM with Prazi and formalin). If the refugium would be a suitable area to keep the fish for a few weeks to get it comfortable, trained on food, and observed for any odd habits(baring disease). As long as no pod destroying fish are in the DT I assume the pod population would be able to survive using the DT as a harbor while the mandarin is in the fuge.
This doesn't directly answer the Original question but since the OP said he only QTs for about a week, which may not be enough time to train the fish, he may want to consider doing something similar to train it without other fish in the way.

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[Chriss614]

Originally Posted by Reefer1991

I will add live rock rubble from my display and that will atleast give him a small supply of pods to munch on while I try nutramar and what not. I will also seed filter pads in my dt which will make the qt cycled. Last time I did that I also got a decent pod population in the qt from the filter pad. I am not too worried about him eating frozen because I honestly feel that I have enough pods to sustain him although i would feel a lot better knowing he will eat frozen if the pods somehow get depleted.

I don't have a fuge so I can't do what the other person is planning on doing. If I put him in my sump with my lr rubble after I insured he had no parasites, he would be able to swim freely around my skimmer and return pump which isn't ideal. I am most likely going to do a 2-3 week observation and put him straight in my display if no parasites or illnesses show. I don't have all of the supplies for ttm nor do I really want to do that. I prefer cp and hypo for treatments(I'm not going to put the mandarin through either). Do they take prazi pro well? I could give him some prazi treatments while I observe to treat for internal parasites.

Sounds like a solid plan, I wasn't sure of your sump setup but I agree it's not ideal to have a fish swimming around with all the equipment around.

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[Reefer1991]

Originally Posted by Chriss614

Sounds like a solid plan, I wasn't sure of your sump setup but I agree it's not ideal to have a fish swimming around with all the equipment around.

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Yea it's a great idea though if I had a fuge. I will probably add one eventually, I just don't have much space in the stand. Good luck with qting your mandy. Post some pics whenever you get one. Thanks for all of the replies guys, I appreciate it. I will probably be ordering one of LA this Friday. I'll post a pic once he comes in!! I'm hype that I'm finally getting one. I've always been paranoid about starving one. A 10g should be good for a mandarin for a qt right?

[MondoBongo]

as additional feeding options i've always found live foods to get their attention quite well.

specifically live white worms, live black worms, and freshly hatched baby brine shrimp.

none of these are great exclusive long term food sources. but they do make a good stop gap, emergency, or treat food source.