Ich, Velvet or something else?

[Clancaster23]

Came home to a kole tang that looks like it's dying and I'm missing my lyretail anthia. The kole I barely got a glimpse of but what I could see of it it was breathing heavy and I barely got a glimpse of it but it looked like it had a couple white patches on it.




I also have a sailfin tang that looks covered in either velvet or ich, not sure which. I uploaded a few pics and a video to show what it looks like and maybe it can be identified. Also have a coral beauty that has a splattered white patch behind one of it's fins. I have several other fish that don't appear to be affected by this just yet. Any ideas?







http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...pselo83kas.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...pswczm9uu3.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...psahp51dxq.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...psm3ndywxj.jpg

http://vid303.photobucket.com/albums...psvsvzu92p.mp4

[Deinonych]

It looks like it MIGHT be Cryptocaryon (ich), but the pictures aren't definitive. A few questions:

1.) How long have you had the fish?
2.) When was the last fish added?
3.) Were these fish quarantined? If so, what treatment methods did you use, if any?

[Clancaster23]

If you're asking about the sailfin, I've had it for a good two months at least. I just picked up an atlantic blue tang from someone and that's probably where this came from. I got it last Tuesday so it's been in there a week. No, I didn't quarantine although I know I should have. It did look very clean and has been fine. Always visits the cleaner but maybe that's why. Lesson learned. All the fish in there were absolutely fine before now.

[Clancaster23]

Also, I did just add 50 pounds of new dry rock. Not sure if that would have stressed everyone out since I did redo basically the whole tank. After this is when I noticed the kole tang acting funny in color. I added the rock this past Friday.

[Deinonych]

Adding rock wouldn't cause a disease outbreak. It's highly likely the Blue Tang brought something in with it. Hopefully it's Crypto and not something more nasty like velvet or brook. Recommend reading the stickies at the top of this forum for treatment options.

[ThRoewer]

Just looked at the pictures.
If this is ich than the infection is pretty well advanced. I seriously doubt it started last Thursday. And for sure not last Friday.
Two months of hidden/unnoticed infection is more like it, probably brought to a full bloom by the stress from the introduction of the new fish or/and the mixing up of the tank.
That's, if it is ich - and you better hope it is because the alternatives are much less pleasant.

It would help to get some crisper pictures.

[Clancaster23]

I'll see what I can get after I get home from work. I'll try to get some of all I can in the tank.

[Clancaster23]

I actually just put up two more videos and hopefully they can show what you're looking for. I figure a full motion video would be better than a bunch of blurry pics. When I got home today, just as I suspected, the kole tang was dead. You wouldn't be able to figure anything out just by looking at it would you? I can take a picture of it or something but it's already lost a bunch of it's color since dying. Now that I look closer, my blonde naso appears to have whatever it is also. I can see specs at the end of it's tail and now it looks like it has darker spots on it's sides. Also, the sailfin has a much larger spot just behind the gills on both sides.

http://vid303.photobucket.com/albums...ps7ld8i1mu.mp4

http://vid303.photobucket.com/albums...ps70tja3gk.mp4

[Deinonych]

Can't really see anything from the video, unfortunately. The Kole's death is cause for concern, though. Based on the timeline since the blue tang was introduced, I would be worried that you are dealing with velvet. Crypto doesn't kill quickly.

[Clancaster23]

I just read that a sign of velvet is:

Gold, brown or rust colored patches on body
Research:
a) Marine Velvet (parasite)

I took that from this post http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1846124

I don't see anything like that one any of the fish. Just the white spots. Shouldn't that rule out velvet?

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by Clancaster23

I just read that a sign of velvet is:

Gold, brown or rust colored patches on body
Research:
a) Marine Velvet (parasite)

I took that from this post http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=1846124

I don't see anything like that one any of the fish. Just the white spots. Shouldn't that rule out velvet?

It doesn't rule out velvet, and the Kole's death after a week certainly favors a diagnosis of velvet (or brook possibly). The gold "sheen" is just one of the clinical signs indicating an advanced progression of the disease. Spots could be crypto, velvet, or brook depending on size and character. Really tough to make a passable diagnosis without a clear picture, though (I know you are trying to get one).

[Clancaster23]

These two are probably the best I can get. If they still won't work, I'm not sure what to do. The sailfin I noticed is now spending a lot of time directly in front of my return line in the current of it. And the atlantic blue I catch sometimes goes to the top corner of the tank and I guess is trying to take in oxygen or something.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...pswxipyr9h.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/n...psusrc0kln.jpg

If you zoom in on this one, you can see the white specks over the black stripes on it. Shouldn't this say what it is?

http://s303.photobucket.com/user/cla...m9uu3.jpg.html

[Deinonych]

It's either crypto or velvet IMO. Fortunately, both can be treated with the same medication. If you can get your hands on it, chloroquine phosphate would be the way to go, as it's the preferred treatment for velvet, and also works on crypto. Dose 10mg/L (40mg/gal) for 30 days, preferably without water changes. Turn off aquarium lighting and remove any chemical filtration like carbon. If you can't get CP, copper medications like Cupramine are an alternative.

Note that neither of these meds are reef safe. You will need to treat ALL of your fish in a dedicated hospital tank and let your DT run fallow (fishless) for 72 days.

[ThRoewer]

The pictures look like a very advanced case of ich. There is simply no way that ich can progress this fast from not noticeable to lethal unless the new fish was very, very sick and totally covered in white spots when he was introduced.

Velvet and especially brook on the other hand can progress from "not visible" (if you don't know what to look for) to lethal within days, or in severe cases even hours. This is because especially brook doesn't require an off host stage and multiplies by simple division.
The slime the fish produce in an attempt to get rid of the parasites can make it appear to look like ich nodules but they will be more fuzzy and blurry than the normally relatively well defined ich nodules.
Since visuals can be deceptive you should match it with the other symptoms and the progression timeline and unless you failed to notice the ich symptoms for quite some time or introduced a terribly sick fish into a weakened population, the timeline screams velvet or brook.

If you want to be sure to treat the right thing you will have to a combination of TTM (to get rid of ich) and chemo - preferably CP (to kill off velvet, brook and the like).

[ThRoewer]

Originally Posted by Deinonych

It's either crypto or velvet IMO. Fortunately, both can be treated with the same medication. If you can get your hands on it, chloroquine phosphate would be the way to go, as it's the preferred treatment for velvet, and also works on crypto. Dose 10mg/L (40mg/gal) for 30 days, preferably without water changes. Turn off aquarium lighting and remove any chemical filtration like carbon. If you can't get CP, copper medications like Cupramine are an alternative.

Note that neither of these meds are reef safe. You will need to treat ALL of your fish in a dedicated hospital tank and let your DT run fallow (fishless) for 72 days.

Are you sure cryptocaryon can be treated with CP?
I thought Steve deemed it ineffective.

[Clancaster23]

They aren't going to like being penned up in a 35 gallon tank after being in a 180 lol. I guess if that's what's needed to keep them alive, it's what I gotta do. The Atlantic blue is the biggest one by far so it shouldn't be too bad since all others are no bigger than 3"

Every fish I have put in this tank has looked great from the day I bought them and put them in the tank. I have prided myself on keeping healthy, happy fish up until now. The ABT, the guy I got him from did have him in a cruddy frag tank because he went to a smaller tank and should have known better than to get it considering I saw what it was living in but another lesson learned. Now I'm down two fish and possibly more.

Anyways, regardless if it's ich or velvet, all fish have to be put in a quarantine tank for those long 72 days. That's going to kill me lol. But I would medicate the QT, not the DT, correct? I don't do anything at all to my main tank?

"If you want to be sure to treat the right thing you will have to a combination of TTM (to get rid of ich) and chemo - preferably CP (to kill off velvet, brook and the like). " What is TTM and chemo??

Also, will I be able to pick up these medications at say a Petco or Petsmart or would it have to be ordered online?

Thanks for all the help guys.

[ThRoewer]

TTM stands for Tank-Transfer-Method = move the fish every 3 days (72 hours or less) to a new, guaranteed ich free tank for no less than 12 days (4 to 5 transfers)

Chemo means any chemical/medication effective to treat a disease.

So you would do TTM while dosing the tanks also with CP.

Now CP may also work alone to kill all, Cryptocaryon (ich), Amyloodinium (velvet) and Brooklynella (brook), but TTM is the most reliable against ich and for some fish (like pipe fish and seahorses) the only option because they don't tolerate CP.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

TTM stands for Tank-Transfer-Method = move the fish every 3 days (72 hours or less) to a new, guaranteed ich free tank for no less than 12 days (4 to 5 transfers)

Chemo means any chemical/medication effective to treat a disease.

So you would do TTM while dosing the tanks also with CP.

Now CP may also work alone to kill all, Cryptocaryon (ich), Amyloodinium (velvet) and Brooklynella (brook), but TTM is the most reliable against ich and for some fish (like pipe fish and seahorses) the only option because they don't tolerate CP.

I agree with all of this post.

[snorvich]

Originally Posted by ThRoewer

Are you sure cryptocaryon can be treated with CP?
I thought Steve deemed it ineffective.

CP can be used to treat cryptocaryon. It may work on more than one stage of the life cycle (although I do not have a literature attribution for that) as well as the highly vulnerable free swimming stage. But for ich, because of the non-deterministic attribute of the back end of the life cycle, I always recommend TTM. It is critically important to remember that TTM only works on cryptocaryon.

CP is the preferred treatment for velvet (oodinium)

[Clancaster23]

So I'll need not one but two quarantine tanks?? I only have one spare at the moment...

[ThRoewer]

You can use some large clear storage bins. For example I use 99 liter Rubbermaid containers for my life-food cultures.
If you don't have already some at home you get them at every Wal-Mart or Container depot. They have the advantage of being quite large, cheap and easy to clean.

[Clancaster23]

I'll use my sitting 35 gallon spare tank and look at getting a clear bin like you said. Where can I find either of the medications you guys say I am supposed to treat with? Unfortunately I can't even do this until Saturday, hopefully they'll still be ok by then.

[Clancaster23]

And can I get a confirmation on what exactly I should be doing here. More than one reply so I got kind of confused.

I am going to get Cupramine, have two quarantine tanks, both ready to go.

Move all fish to one and dose the Cupramine.

Three days after that, move all fish into second fresh QT, dosing with cupramine every time I change tanks.

Do this routine 4-5 times. After the last time, do I leave them in that one for the remainder of the 72 day stretch?

If I am not getting something right or missing something, let me know please. I want to do this right.

[ThRoewer]

I wouldn't use Cupramine or any other form of copper at all because it will reduce the fish's immune system which in turn can open the door for opportunistic infections.
Plus the whole idea of TTM is not to use copper.

If you do TTM I would suggest to do 45 minute formalin plus malachite green baths in-between when transferring the fish from on tank to the next.
TTM will take care of Cryptocaryon (ich), while the formalin/malachite green baths kill all the other possible suspects.
If you want to go extra sure that you kill all the nasties you can also add Chloroquine Primer (CP) in the TTM tanks. But be careful, some fish don't tolerate it (e.g. seahorses, pipefish and their relatives)

I would do the following schedule:

1. 3 days Tank 1 / sterilize and prepare QT/Holding tank
Transfer: 45 min Formalin/Malachite green bath
2. 3 days Tank 2 / sterilize and prepare Tank 1
Transfer: 45 min Formalin/Malachite green bath
3. 3 days Tank 1 / sterilize and prepare Tank 2
Transfer: 45 min Formalin/Malachite green bath
4. 3 days Tank 2 / sterilize and prepare Tank 1
Transfer: 45 min Formalin/Malachite green bath
5. back into QT/Holding tank

This requires 3 tanks/container, 2 for the actual treatment and one to hold the fish for the fallow period after the treatment. You may also need a bucket for the baths in-between transfers.

[Clancaster23]

Ok, can you tell me what exactly I need to get as far as medications go and where to get them? I'm guessing I'll need to order them online which will add a couple more days before I can start this.