Need help with Zoas/Palys

[zibba]

This has been an ongoing problem for at least 9 months and I'm getting very frustrated and could use some expert advice.

Many of my zoas and palys have closed about half-way and/or have lost their "skirt" entirely. They hang around for a long time then eventually 6+ months later die. Some close up entirely and just wither away.

The most baffling thing is that the closed/shriveled polyps are right next to polyps that are flourishing.

I've tried iodine dips (once/week for 2-3 weeks) without success.

I've tried a chemiclean (liquid) treatment in a 5-gallon bucket for 48hrs without success.

I've tried cleaning them off gently with a toothbrush without success.

Here's the range of parameters from tests since May (I can go back further if necessary):
Alk: 7.5-8.4 (dKH)
Ca: 400-440
Mg: 1330-1500
K: 390-430
Phos: 0.012-0.08
Nitrate: 0.5-1.5

Have not run carbon or GFO since May but ran it from December 2013-January 2014 and from March-May 2014.

Here are some pictures to show you what I'm seeing:

Zoas in top section are closed down while others are fine:






Tried to get a close up of some closed polyps:


More:


Less than 5" away from the picture above:


The next thought was to try treating with Furan2 or to treat the entire tank with liquid chemiclean. Any thoughts, comments, or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

[neuro]

I seriously don't think anyone has any real answers to problems like this, given that your parameters I don't think are off. I've searched all around and reading articles and TOTMs on their husbandry, but have not found a definitive answer.

I'm suffering the same exact issue. Thought it was zoa pox, but it wasn't. Now it seems like I can't keep some zoas types no matter what I do to make sure parameters are correct.

Makes me think there are some things that we're not measuring.

To compare notes with you:
- Furan 2 did not solve anything for me.
- Dips did not do anything (iodine, revive)
- I'm running a penguin 25 UV filter (properly plumbed and fed) as of about a month ago.
- i'm running 250w MH with blue/royal blue leds (I changed out the bulb a while ago)
- two 6025s
- I've got a lot of brown algae (dinoflags i think) for some reason, that gets sucked out weekly.
- I brush algae off, on, and around them.

My issues started happening after a tank crash last January. It rebounded fine for a while and all of a sudden, this. My melting is still happening, but some look like it weathered past the initial shock.

- What is your lighting?
- What is your flow?
- What does the algae in your tank look like?
- My palys are not effected. Are your's?

edit, i want to just note, that my palys are reacting to something, just like the ones in your pics, but they are not dying.

[zibba]

Thanks for chiming in neuro. Hopefully just having the discussion will help someone down the road (even if it's not us).

I thought it was, and still think it might be zoa pox, but I don't see the bumps like on most pictures I've come across. The second to last picture (the one of the closed up utter chaos) made me think it might be pox of some sort and is the reason I bought Furan2.

Another note: all of these zoas are in the same tank, a 50-gallon ADA 90p, that is plumbed into a much larger display (450g) and sump (~150g).

Like you, I run a 114-watt UV sterilizer and ran it 24/7 for the last month trying to kill whatever bacteria it might have been (flow rate set low enough to kill ich too). That has not helped.

Lighting over the 36x18x18 tank is a 27" MaxSpect Razor LED unit. I've had this fixture since starting this tank. I have moved the infected zoas higher and lower without any changes. I do grow SPS under that light as can be seen in the last picture of the hornets growing right next to a Miagi Tort.

Flow is from two Tunze 6095 that operate from 40%-80% depending on the time of day. Controlled via Apex.

Rock is predominantly covered in coraline. Some light cyano blooms on the sandbed occasionally. I sometimes get very small patches of dark brown cyano that are easily blown off with a turkey baster.

Some paly's are closed, some are just fine. Same effects on palys and zoas.

[650-IS350]

any of these predators seen during the night?

http://www.coralpedia.com/index.php?...&g2_itemId=384

[zibba]

I have had hydroids in the past, which I thought was the reason they were closed, but I don't have them any more. Or, at least, that's not causing them to close up because none of the closed zoas have them.

I will continue to look for some of the others since I haven't kept a keen eye for all of them. Specifically, I'll take a closer look for asterina star fish and amphipods. I've been watchful for nudis and spiders. I think I would have noticed the worms and other snails mentioned.

[650-IS350]

You can also have large ampipods nibbling on them and bothering them at night. When I see torn or ripped up skirts, its usually large Ampipods

[neuro]

I do see amphipods and i do have lots of Asterina.

I've seen amphipods darting under and around my zoas. Maybe it's time to find a natural predator, and pluck the Asterinas out.

[zibba]

Could bristleworms cause zoas to close up?

I was planning to go with the chemiclean or H2O2 route so I started moving all of the affected zoas to my separate frag tank, where I was going to treat them and observe. I started moving them last night and I noticed 4 bristle worms under one of the frag plugs. I didn't think much of it but I did pull them off and I flushed them.

This morning, I got a picture from my girlfriend who pulled out 19 bristle worms from the frag tank while trying to feed a lobo. I've always thought they were beneficial, but could they be the reason they're closed up?

If so, I'll likely dip all of the frags to get the bristle worms off and monitor. If not, I'll just continue with my plan of treating the frag tank with chemiclean and/or H2O2.

[650-IS350]

Only worms I worry about are Eunicid or bobbit worms
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rs/

[zibba]

Originally Posted by 650-IS350

Only worms I worry about are Eunicid or bobbit worms
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rs/

Thanks for the link. After posting, I came across some of your other replies to threads on zoas/bristleworms.

Helpful...but I'm still left in the dark.

Would you recommend a chemiclean, H202 or furan-2 treatment first? Or something else?

[sfniners84]

So I have been having some what of the same problem just not with missing skirts..They just stayed closed up and if its not all the way closed its partially close.. Tried the dips with still no luck..

[650-IS350]

only do Furan2 if you do have Pox,
I dip if you know you have hitchhikers on your frags.
Dip peroxide if its fungus or algae growing on or between the frags
Interceptor tabs if you really want to nuke all inverts out of your tank ( worst case )


bristle worms usually eat the dead or decaying items. Unless you really see them going after healthy specimens then thats a different story. But find natural predation of the worms if you really want them gone.

The ones that are closed where are they located at in the tank?

[zibba]

Originally Posted by 650-IS350

The ones that are closed where are they located at in the tank?

I have closed polyps from the bottom of the tank to the top and from the sides to the middle. There doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason -- widespread.

I've moved polyps around hoping that they'd open over time without effect.

Now, most of the zoas that aren't attached to rock have been moved to the frag tank. Still looking the same in there. I didn't expect them to open up over night, nor do I expect them to open up in the near future without some sort of treatment. What that is though, I don't know.

[650-IS350]

have you double checked your equipment to see if their off calibration or measurement.

Trust me I've made that error just constantly checking the readings but never bothered to do a annual check on the equipment its self. Didn't know my refractometer was off a bit.. ended up costing me lost of corals dying from salinity being off for a long time, same as my temp being measure by my controller, it was off a bunch too, didn't know till I checked with other thermometers to find out I was of by several degrees, don't know why it drifted. probably one of the causes of losses in corals and tank crashing from mulitple deaths which cause massive cycles.

[zibba]

Yes, I make a point of calibrating the refracto almost every time that I check the salinity. I know that may be hard to believe, but I keep the calibration solution right next to the refracto just because I've experienced it being off regularly.

I have two different types of test kits for Alk, Cal and Phos: a Hanna checker and Red Sea kit for Alk and Phosphates and a Red Sea and Salifert for Cal.

I only have Red Sea for Mg but I ordered a "refill" just to make sure things were on track and I've had it tested by a friend in the past.

I only have one kit for Nitrate, which I don't use very often -- I need to test for that again soon.

I have a neptune temp prob in my sump where the main display feeds and a digital therm on a smaller tank that's plumbed in -- they read pretty consistent.

pH is only monitored through the apex and I don't have a back-up, nor have I calibrated it recently. Honestly, I don't worry about pH too much if everything else is in order, which--based on my results--it seems to be.

So, no Furan-2 because I don't think it's zoa pox. Maybe I'll dip all of the zoas this weekend in RPS All Out to see if I spot any hitchhikers. If none, I'll wait a few days and do a chemiclean treatment on the frag tank. If that's successful, I'll do a chemiclean treatment on the main display and put the zoas back into the main display. If it's not, I'll come crying back. Sound like a plan?

[650-IS350]

had bad experience with Chemiclean, crashed my tank. Never touching that stuff again.

[neuro]

ditto on that. first time was ok. second time using the same batch after years later completely crashed my tank.

i refused to use it now.

[zn00py]

I have always had issues with zoas but after asking a speaker at a frag swap recently i followed some of the things she said they I see inprovments.


1.Indirect lighting is better for zoas and they really only like about 3-4 hours of strong lighting.
2.More flow when they are partially closed or fully closed really helps them repair themselves.
3.They really have a hard time with salinity swings.

[sfniners84]

So have you been noticing them opening up more or fully?? What about polyp size?? Some seem to be smaller then others. Even when I first got them they where full size and now they have shrunk in size.

[650-IS350]

3 is correct

Z's and P's are collected all over the world in various types of section of reefs, lagoon, etc.
some in clear water, some deeper less light, some dirty dingy areas. All over.

I've have various Z's and P's act like SPS where they wanted to be directly under the light pretty much under 250mh with 4 T5s and light is only 6" off the water surface and Z's are only 5" from the top of the water surface. While some didn't want direct light and strong flow. It varies. Who was the speaker?

[zn00py]

morgan i think her name was from reefgardener

[650-IS350]

Ah Morgan, yes they have some nice Z's and P's collections.

But if you Google for zoanthids, locations , collection area and such you will see the diversity of geographic locations, depths and water quality they are in. Which IMHO, one placement of a specific Zoanthid may not work the best for another.

[rbla51]

It am having a horrible experience with my native fla ZOA based tank. About 70% of my ZOA's are shrinking and melting away, while other colonies are florishing. Its very depressing to me to have ANYTHING in my tank die. I cannot find a reason for what is going on. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2413122. That was a couple of months ago

[Ballgame]

try moving around

[heckeng]

I bet it is lighting. I have seen this happen once I changed to LED lighting and the source of the frags I bought did not use LED. I believe the Zoas are trying to shield themselves. They start by curling the skirts up then don't ever feel comfortable spreading back out. I would try moving them to a lower lit spot. Zoas are my favorite corals and honestly I think they may be some of the hardest.