Upgrading Electrical Panel Questions

[george81]

what type of panel is it? it looks like you can get tandem breakers..and you dont have to upgrade you re panel box.

[george81]

whoever did that panel should be shot...seriously with a big gun..

[lakee911]

Thanks for the comment on the TVSS, Agios. Someone else told me that (electrician) and it didn't sound right, but if you say it to, then it must be ok. I'll see if I have any left over breakers and if I do I'll use a dedicated, if not I'll put in a new one.

Considering the fact that there is no load, does it matter what size breaker it is on? I would think because it's a three wire device it would need to be on a 2-pole breaker, or at least two 1-pole breakers with a tie-handle, no?

The panel is manufactured by General Switch and I estimate that it was installed in the 70's because there was a sticker on it re: pest inspection from 1977. So, it's at least 30 years old.

I could not find, at least at bLowes, the proper breakers for it. I'm using Siemens type QT breakers which are not listed for the panel. The panel does not list the maximum that I can install and two of the breakers are loose too.

My new panel is a 200A bus Square D QO with 30 slots for a maximum of 40 breakers. I'll install a 100A main until I can get my service upgraded (move to underground too).

Looks like I might need to update my grounding too since I have a couple of splices in it.

I plan on bringing the feeder in the top side of the new panel to ensure that I have enough room. Is that type of cable not supposed to be exposed? I see it mounted directly on the outside of houses all the time around here.

I've taken some more pictures of this existing glorious and most excellent panel installation and I'll post them here in a little bit.

Actually, it was pretty messy when I got started. When I moved in, there was a 2-pole for the stove (its gas now), 2-pole for the dryer, one breaker for the upstairs bedroom receptacles, one for the entire kitchen receptacles, one for the disposer and range and sink light and two for the existing K&T that served the rest of the house receptacles and lighting (K&T gone now). Breakers were tripping left and right when I moved in.

Give me a chance to do it right before you bring out the Bazooka george81.

[lakee911]

This is looking up at the ceiling. It is in the basement.

Top of panel view.

Service feeder coming in from the meter outside. Check out that bonding job on the ground coming from the cable TV shield. Never saw that. That mark on the feeder is just dirt. I know it looks damaged, but I just checked it out and it's fine.

Panel with cover.

[BeanAnimal]

You can only double wire (double tap) a breaker if the breaker is designed to be double wired!

The breaker rating for the TVSS will be listed in the specs. It will likely be a double pole 20 or 30.

Yes, the ground MUST be a single unbroken conductor to both the suitable cold water entrance and another to the supplemental grounding rods. Size the new ground for the 200A service. If memory serves it is a #6.

Sheathed service entrance cable (type SE) can be exposed.

[lakee911]

Hi Bean, QO breakers are rated for two wires. So we're good there. Actually, the specs/instructions didn't list any breaker size.

Thanks

[BeanAnimal]

What is the brand and model of TVSS (sorry if you already posted it)

[lakee911]

Square D SDSA1175

[BeanAnimal]

That is a VERY undersized (and overpriced) TVSS. It is a couple of MOVs potted in epoxy! I would put it on a double pole 15A or 20A breaker.

[lakee911]

I got it for free, Bean and I never had one before so it's better than nothing. All my electronics (and tank) are on a UPSes too. What do you recommend that's sized well and underpriced?

Jason

[BeanAnimal]

Don't know of anything "underpriced" but the liebert stuff is top notch.

Free (as in beer) is a good thing. Toss it on a double pole breaker and smile.

If you want to purchase one, then a Liebert powersure would be perfect.

50 kA surge
http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=9128

100kA surge
http://www.stayonline.com/detail.aspx?ID=9132

BTW: Those prices on that site are very good. The 50 kA is only $15 above my wholesale cost. The 100kA a bit more, but still WELL BELOW retail.

The freebie you have is listed at 36kA but does not have a long life

[lakee911]

Owie .. that 100kA unit costs more than I'll have in the entire panel upgrade!

Free is good. I'll use it 'til it breaks.

Jason

[lakee911]

How does this look for a change? Better?






The tape over the empty slot is only temporary until I buy one of the blank slot covers. Why do they pre-punch the first two slots in the cover? (I want to save those slots for the generator interlock kit if I ever upgrade).

Also, the ghetto tie handle over the two 30A single pole breakers is temporary until my 2P 30A breaker comes in.

Jason

[rbursek]

You have the right guy here O Agios, do some PM;s with him,
been there done it drove engineers to dependecy!!!!!!!
Bob

[Young Frankenstein]

Don't go to the breaker with 2 wires, instead use a wire nut and splice the 2 wires, therefore terminating with only one in the breaker. A 20 - 30 amp breaker is fine, like bean stated. Nice Job. I like it, better than some of our electricians

[nikygm]

That panel I'm sorry has got to be the scariest one I've ever seen in my life, I would gut the whole thing out of there put in a new panel that is bigger and put a big junction box above the panel or besiew it and have all your short excisting wires go to that and then have new wires go to the panel from the juncion box and have all your splices in the junction box.... but thats just me

[Young Frankenstein]

Sorry but the panel is practically empty ? why the splice box ? If it was way crowded I would say yes, but its not.

[The Professor]

I may have missed something but that looks like a 200 amp main breaker panel with only 100 amp service cable. What is with the seperate ground bar? Did you use the panel bond screw, or a jumper from the neutral bar to that seperate ground bar? Is there no vapor, or moisture barrier between the panel and cinder blocks? Unfortunately that might not pass a homeowners inspection.

[Justinandkrista]

All i can say is that i hope you deoxed the aluminum feeder. Also strip it so theres not so much sheathing one it. New breakers, biger panel is beter. But you completly left the wires exposed still. 300.4 Protection Against Physical damage. Where subject to physical damage, condutors shall be protected. Thats what i think looks the worst. Aka my 2x4 around the panel idea. Need some grounding to did you pound ground rods or bond the plumbing. Thats another inspectors pet peve. Anyway 0 Agios I dont know how you guys do things in florida but here in washington we go by code and i hope your electricans can do beter. You shouldnt double up in breakers. Maybe if the breakers are rated? Add another circuit for it. I think i remember that you can only double up grounds if there the same size. Anyway the panel isnt bad, its ok. Thats not the scariest one iv seen, nikygm. Im sure your first panel change wasnt the best either. It looks like most of the wires were long enough witch looks beter than 30 wire nuts. Even tho you could have made the wires look alot nicer in the panel, but thats ok.

[Justinandkrista]

It almost looks like a sub panel with that romex feeder. If it is grounds and nutrals are separated. I dont know im just lookin at a pic.

[Justinandkrista]

0 Agios I can see you lookin just like that guy in you avitar. Is that a pic of you. Jp

[lakee911]

Thanks for the complement, 0 Agios. I didn't double lug any of the breakers. I've only got one wire on each breaker. I tried to keep it as neat as I could. I tried really hard to keep it neat. Even though it's the main panel I thought it would be better to keep the grounds separate from the neutral--I know it doesn't have to be. I did bond the neutral with the green screw though. If I wouldn't have used a separate grounding bus bar, I'm sure it would have been neater.

The panel has a 200A bus and a 100A main breaker. I bought a main lug panel and bought the 100A main separately so I could keep the panel and change out the service later.

There's actually a slight gap behind it, but I haven't had moisture problems there. I asked around and some like to mount on plywood and some do not. If it becomes a problem for an inspector, I can drill out the fasteners and slip some plywood behind it. I've seen them both ways around here.

I'm not sure why you're recommending that nyk. I think the panel is big enough. I've seen some worse than this (like what I started with) and I've seen some worse than that too!

Justin, that panel is 1" from the ceiling joists. All of those wires are actually in the ceiling. If I would have done it any differently I would have had a ton of wire nuts in the panel. I did put some of the special "goop" on the aluminum service feeders. The bus bars are actually tin plated copper which will help as well.

I didn't strip off anymore insulation from the service feed because it's a SER cable and the neutral is wrapped around the two hot legs. I would have to undo the existing twisting and I just figured it would get pretty unruly really fast. Given the fact that it's aluminum I didn't want to be bending it and fooling with it more than I have to.

From my cold water pipe I have a continuous ground to the panel. Also connected is my ground rod too. The wire looked pretty big and I'm assuming it's #4, but I'm not sure. It could be #6.

I'm satisfied with it. It's much better than it was, and with my generator and a couple UPS the fridge stayed cold, the furnace stayed on, had some lighting and most importantly the tank was just fine! It took about 5-6 hours including clean up. Surprisingly enough, I only burned through a little over a gallon of fuel!

Jason

[Young Frankenstein]

Originally posted by Justinandkrista
0 Agios I can see you lookin just like that guy in you avitar. Is that a pic of you. Jp

Well I am glad you asked Yes that's me before a panel change getting ready to do wiring ....... warming up basically

[Young Frankenstein]

That's how we start a job in Florida