N/P reducing pellets (solid vodka dosing)

[Tony Romano]

Originally Posted by Randy Holmes-Farley

Randy I think it happens when PO4 is lowered too fast.


That's possible. Any hypothesis about how it is related to the alkalinity?

No sir.

[Tony Romano]

Originally Posted by 180+55reef

so I have a LPS dominated tank, recently my gonis and aussie elegances dont look as good as they should , As this like nutrient rich waters is it possible that the pellets are hurting these corals?

I am finally getting some gunk in my skimmer

Yep, consider removing 1/2 of pellets for a bit if corals still look bad, also feed them and maybe dose some AA.

[Tony Romano]

Originally Posted by thejuggernaut

Yes....My 4 inch 200 micron clog in hours use to be around 36...and my 7 inch 200 micron clog in a day...use to take 3 days

Yes - Unreal amount of crap about a week in. Other than shocking some of the corals this product seems to work!

[Rwpdunne]

My nitrates have climbed back up to 15ppm
I have one of thoes h2o blocks in my sump should i remove it could it be causing the nitrates to be going back up my phosphate is 0.008

[Tony Romano]

Originally Posted by daveonbass

dude I know...it's crazy. I DO freely admit that the test earlier that day may have had a little more or less water than the night test...but to see such a change...that was disturbing for me. But again that may just be human error...the testor is obviously flawed (me).

BUT...the test kit is NEW...and I mean it new...I got it right when I got the pellets put in. I wanted this to be an accurate set of tests. Accurate in the fact that I would see MOVEMENT either up or down...not the literal use of the term accurate. And so far they just keep rising. And I'm not going to blame it on an old test kit...it's new.

I only have the one test kit...but i'm getting to the point of wanting to buy one of those expensive Nitrate Monitors from Pinpoint. But man they are pricey.

I thank you for the comments on my tank...and yes there is a tiny bit of algae...but the foxface keeps that all mowed down so it's not long and stringy, but most of the rock is BARE. Also there is no algae in any kind of refuge...I dont' run a lit fuge...you can see it in my videos. It's dark and benthic/criptic. There are lots of pods EVERYWHERE, they are almost plague like at night. I want to get a mandarin simply cause I know he'll be fat and happy. (but i'm not) The corals that are there...are growing and seem happy. they include. Green polyps, hammer coral, RBTA, ricordia yuma (2 big violet/grey ones), 8-9 orange florida rics, and a strange type of brain coral that was a hitch hiker that seems to like where it's at...and is growing from about a centimeter when I first noticed it, to about 3-4 cm now.

I'm weirded out that I can grow such strange things...and yet others that are new and healthy seem to bleach and die in a week...MAINLY SPS! I just can't keep them in those waters. And I believe it's mainly due to the nitrates being too high.

All othre parameters seems to stay just fine without drastic fluctuations.

I'm stumped....

What brand of test kit? Send a sample to a lab, there is a service that advertises in Coral Magazine. I agree with other poster, no way to go up that high that fast. Also sps may not like corals you keep, could they be touching new sps? Foxface maybe eating sps. Where do you get frags? SPS needs careful care, many LFSs are not up to speed.

If your NO3 is that high and PO4 is zero you need something like a Sulfur reactor to get numbers in balance.

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by Rwpdunne

My nitrates have climbed back up to 15ppm
I have one of thoes h2o blocks in my sump should i remove it could it be causing the nitrates to be going back up my phosphate is 0.008

Is that po4 level a typo?? I don't know of any hobby monitor that measures in thousandths of mg/L (unless you've had a professional lab test your phosphate)

Have you stopped using the filter sock now?? It may be that there is more POM left to decay if you suddenly stopped using the filter socks. Is the BP reactor effluent directed at the skimmer intake to export the bacterial accumulation??

Can you link to the H2O block?? Not exactly sure what that is. If it's what I think it is (a large porous block intended for bacterial proliferation and indicated for nitrate reduction), then it's possible that it can be leaching nitrates as the pores get blocked with decaying POM (about as helpful as bioballs - not helpful at all).

Jeremy

[camoausreefer]

is anyone using the bp with prodibio? i have only just been able to get my hands of both of these in Aus thanks.

[Tony Romano]

Originally Posted by camoausreefer

is anyone using the bp with prodibio? i have only just been able to get my hands of both of these in Aus thanks.

I am using with ZEO, why do you ask?

[Tony Romano]

Originally Posted by Rwpdunne

My nitrates have climbed back up to 15ppm
I have one of thoes h2o blocks in my sump should i remove it could it be causing the nitrates to be going back up my phosphate is 0.008

What was low prior to going back up? What time of day did you test? When do you feed?

15ppm may not be that bad. I seldom get a 0 reading several days in a row. 10-20 ppm is common. I got excited this week when I got 2 days of zero! So I fed everything, 20ppm last night!

[powers2001]

I might have missed it but has anyone suggested the makers of these pellets design and manufacture a reactor dedicated to the use of these pellets?

[Rwpdunne]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

Is that po4 level a typo?? I don't know of any hobby monitor that measures in thousandths of mg/L (unless you've had a professional lab test your phosphate)
deltec test kit mesures down to 0.008 mg/lp 0.024mg/l po4/3

Have you stopped using the filter sock now?? It may be that there is more POM left to decay if you suddenly stopped using the filter socks. Is the BP reactor effluent directed at the skimmer intake to export the bacterial accumulation?? yes the bp effiuent is directed at skimmer pump

Can you link to the H2O block?? Not exactly sure what that is. If it's what I think it is (a large porous block intended for bacterial proliferation and indicated for nitrate reduction), then it's possible that it can be leaching nitrates as the pores get blocked with decaying POM (about as helpful as bioballs - not helpful at all). yes thats exactly it i removed it today to see if it helps bring the nitrate back down

Jeremy

[Rwpdunne]

Originally Posted by Tony Romano

What was low prior to going back up? What time of day did you test? When do you feed? well i had it down to 1.6ppm nitrate tested with a hanna meter i test during the day using salifert test kit

15ppm may not be that bad. I seldom get a 0 reading several days in a row. 10-20 ppm is common. I got excited this week when I got 2 days of zero! So I fed everything, 20ppm last night!
are you keeping sps corals?

[Rwpdunne]

i done the quotes wrong sorry

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by powers2001

I might have missed it but has anyone suggested the makers of these pellets design and manufacture a reactor dedicated to the use of these pellets?

Oh please don't give any manufacturers any big ideas on how to rip us off more. There are multiple reactors that they will work fine with.

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.co...6&pcatid=11586

http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/...n-reactor.html

Or you can build one for about $5-$10 in PVC parts.

The idea is simply that there is upward flow keeping the pellets in continual flow and tumbling through the reactor. Keeping them tumbling will prevent them from clumping up and creating an anaerobic space which could potentially release hydrogen sulfide.

Jeremy

[camoausreefer]

Originally Posted by Tony Romano

I am using with ZEO, why do you ask?

Would like to know if they can both be used together and if it would affect prodibio dosing?

[Moser]

Originally Posted by Tony Romano

I have been running ZEO for darn near a year, Cyno never stopped!

Personally I see no reason the pellets and ZEO can't both be used. I am just about to a point I believe Cyno is more of a light thing. Also run GFO heavy, be careful not to reduce PO4 too fast or corals may bleach, RTN or STN.

I've been thinking about this.... is anybody out there using Biopellets and still dosing the zeo supplements to bring out the SPS colours a little more?....

Mo

[Rwpdunne]

Originally Posted by Moser

I've been thinking about this.... is anybody out there using Biopellets and still dosing the zeo supplements to bring out the SPS colours a little more?....

Mo

Iam using zeo cv sp cs lps amino acids and phols extra with the pellets

should i remove my sump sock its getting full every three days??

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by Rwpdunne

Iam using zeo cv sp cs lps amino acids and phols extra with the pellets

should i remove my sump sock its getting full every three days??

If you want more nutrient export continue using the sock and change it every 3 days.

If you don't use the sock there is potential for what it would be catching to settle out and begin decomposing thus releasing more nutrients back into the system.


In regards to those of you interested in using zeo in combination with biopellets, it can be done but is it really necessary?? I ran zeo for a year and a half. I quit the process for many reasons that I won't go into details about but in my experience I got the most beneficial color improvement and polyp extension when I was using only the zeolites, start2 (carbon source), and the zeobak. I'd be leary to add the pohls extra and other zeo supplements becuase there is absolutely no indication of what they contain. A common theory about why corals can quickly develop tissue recession, burnt tips, and develop other negative reactions is that the corals are thought to be more sensitive to elevated levels of trace elements and heavy metals when a very low nutrient level is reached.

If it were me, I'd save some money, try the biopellets and see what sort of reaction you get in growth and coloration. If your already running zeo, try stopping all supplements but the basic 4 (minus the zeofood - a completely unecessary item if you have any fish) and see what reaction you get. The biopellets and zeolites will generate enough bacterioplankton that AA dosing and coral food dosing (CV) is unecessary (IMO). The sponge power may or may not be beneficial. Again this is just my opinion and I'm just trying to save everyone some $$$ from supplements that can be detrimental at high levels in a low nutrient tank and let me be clear that these supplements HAVEN'T in any study or any bit of literature (ANYWHERE) been shown that they provide any benefit - at all (The only indication that they are good or do some good is from the manufacturers marketing of the product - no real studies). I suggest you do your own study, try without the supplements for a few months then try with the supplements for a few months and see what reaction you get. Try to limit any other changes to the system when adding or removing a supplement that way there is minimized risk of variable interference in your experiment. In my own experiment I saw absolutely no change several months after I removed the iron supplement, the PIF, the iodide, the B-balance, the potassium strong supplement, the pohls extra, the coral snow, coral vitalizer, and sponge power. That saved me a heck of a lot of money!!

Jeremy

[lunar]

jlinzmaier, I agree with you, as if you read in my mind. I couldn't write it better.

Krzysztof

[Moser]

Originally Posted by jlinzmaier

If you want more nutrient export continue using the sock and change it every 3 days.

If you don't use the sock there is potential for what it would be catching to settle out and begin decomposing thus releasing more nutrients back into the system.


In regards to those of you interested in using zeo in combination with biopellets, it can be done but is it really necessary?? I ran zeo for a year and a half. I quit the process for many reasons that I won't go into details about but in my experience I got the most beneficial color improvement and polyp extension when I was using only the zeolites, start2 (carbon source), and the zeobak. I'd be leary to add the pohls extra and other zeo supplements becuase there is absolutely no indication of what they contain. A common theory about why corals can quickly develop tissue recession, burnt tips, and develop other negative reactions is that the corals are thought to be more sensitive to elevated levels of trace elements and heavy metals when a very low nutrient level is reached.

If it were me, I'd save some money, try the biopellets and see what sort of reaction you get in growth and coloration. If your already running zeo, try stopping all supplements but the basic 4 (minus the zeofood - a completely unecessary item if you have any fish) and see what reaction you get. The biopellets and zeolites will generate enough bacterioplankton that AA dosing and coral food dosing (CV) is unecessary (IMO). The sponge power may or may not be beneficial. Again this is just my opinion and I'm just trying to save everyone some $$$ from supplements that can be detrimental at high levels in a low nutrient tank and let me be clear that these supplements HAVEN'T in any study or any bit of literature (ANYWHERE) been shown that they provide any benefit - at all (The only indication that they are good or do some good is from the manufacturers marketing of the product - no real studies). I suggest you do your own study, try without the supplements for a few months then try with the supplements for a few months and see what reaction you get. Try to limit any other changes to the system when adding or removing a supplement that way there is minimized risk of variable interference in your experiment. In my own experiment I saw absolutely no change several months after I removed the iron supplement, the PIF, the iodide, the B-balance, the potassium strong supplement, the pohls extra, the coral snow, coral vitalizer, and sponge power. That saved me a heck of a lot of money!!

Jeremy

The most colorful zeo tanks seem to have used more than just the basic 4.
I know Krzystof, you have had darker colors since stopping Zeo, so it remains to be seen whether there will be just as slow a reduction in coloration as it takes to get the colors with Zeo in the first place. Also, you have substituted the zeo elements for Tropic Marin ones, so you are not just using pellets alone.

With regards to evidence base for using the elements, I would guess that Thomas Pohl has done a lot of patented experiments and so much of the literature around his work isn't published in scientific journals. Some info is known, such as copper making SPS shed Zooxanthellae etc. and there does seem to be some logic around using many of his supplements, is just that there are so many secrets that it's not easy to know what to do in the event of problems.

With all due respect to Jeremy. If stopping the elements made no difference, then maybe you weren't using them correctly?! as they are supposed to have defined roles/ properties...

. Of course, I haven't seen your tank, but I have seen Krzystof's and it would be intereting to know what happens if he stops the Tropic Marin elements too!.....

Mo

[Aquarist007]

I just read through about 1000 posts on this thread--good for me since I am borderline OC
There doesn't appear to be anything written about how water changes should be maintained with use of npbiopellets. Should water changes continue the same as you would prior to using biopellets?

[Rwpdunne]

Originally Posted by capn_hylinur

I just read through about 1000 posts on this thread--good for me since I am borderline OC
There doesn't appear to be anything written about how water changes should be maintained with use of npbiopellets. Should water changes continue the same as you would prior to using biopellets?

I still do 10% water change every week this also helps to replace lost minerals even if nitrate is low

[Tony Romano]

Good thread - Helps me decide how to work my tank using ZEO and pellets.

Week 3 - Algae growth much less, SPS coloring up and recovering. (Maybe one is not) LPS and Non-photosynthetic corals seem to be doing well. Fish are fat and happy, low food days are less with pellets. I plan on ordering more pellets this week.

[bmwaaron]

Originally Posted by Tony Romano

Good thread - Helps me decide how to work my tank using ZEO and pellets.

Week 3 - Algae growth much less, SPS coloring up and recovering. (Maybe one is not) LPS and Non-photosynthetic corals seem to be doing well. Fish are fat and happy, low food days are less with pellets. I plan on ordering more pellets this week.

So have you noticed a significant reduction in pellets after 3 weeks? Or are you just getting ready for more?

[jlinzmaier]

Originally Posted by Moser

The most colorful zeo tanks seem to have used more than just the basic 4.
I know Krzystof, you have had darker colors since stopping Zeo, so it remains to be seen whether there will be just as slow a reduction in coloration as it takes to get the colors with Zeo in the first place. Also, you have substituted the zeo elements for Tropic Marin ones, so you are not just using pellets alone.

With regards to evidence base for using the elements, I would guess that Thomas Pohl has done a lot of patented experiments and so much of the literature around his work isn't published in scientific journals. Some info is known, such as copper making SPS shed Zooxanthellae etc. and there does seem to be some logic around using many of his supplements, is just that there are so many secrets that it's not easy to know what to do in the event of problems.

With all due respect to Jeremy. If stopping the elements made no difference, then maybe you weren't using them correctly?! as they are supposed to have defined roles/ properties...

. Of course, I haven't seen your tank, but I have seen Krzystof's and it would be intereting to know what happens if he stops the Tropic Marin elements too!.....

Mo

Let me try to clarify a bit.

The most colorful zeo tanks seem to have used more than just the basic 4.

When starting the zeo regimen Bob, G. Alexander, and the other zeo experts on the zeo forum will immediately suggest dosing supplements beyond the basic 4. I have never seen a recommendation to start off with only the basic 4 followed by a recommendation to just wait to see the results. Have you seen many zeo tanks using only the basic 4??

Also, you have substituted the zeo elements for Tropic Marin ones, so you are not just using pellets alone.

When I was running the zeo program I never supplemented any zeo products with any tropic marine products. Zeo was enough for me to learn that all those extra products weren't necessary to maintain a beautiful and healthy aquarium. I have yet to use the biopellets.

With regards to evidence base for using the elements, I would guess that Thomas Pohl has done a lot of patented experiments and so much of the literature around his work isn't published in scientific journals.

That is your guess. Several hundred years ago people were also convinced the world was flat. I would love to see any published info by Thomas Pohl. I would love to see any indication that any of his products do any little bit of what the marketing claims. All the info that is listed is merely good marketing and not a bit of scientific evidence based indication for dosing any elemental supplement he sells. Hmm. Maybe Thomas Pohl is really a genius, he has studied and proven his products do exactly what he says they do, and he just doesn't want to publish the information to support the benefit of his products. That makes lots of sense!!

Some info is known, such as copper making SPS shed Zooxanthellae etc.

What does that have to do with any of the zeo products???

there does seem to be some logic around using many of his supplements

Suspected logic "OR" evidence of an actual effect??? There's a huge difference. If he won't even post the contents of his products how can you even indicate that there is any logic to using it????

With all due respect to Jeremy. If stopping the elements made no difference, then maybe you weren't using them correctly?! as they are supposed to have defined roles/ properties...

Well. Just so you know. I spent the entire year and a half in constant communication with the zeo forum staff and moderators trying to get the zeo products do what they claim to do. I dosed exaclty as was directed by the zeo experts and still saw no effect. If that isn't using them correctly I don't know what is. Hmm. Maybe they just don't do what the marketing claims they do???? When I tried everything they suggested, including moving supplement dosing from the low end of dose limits to the maximum dose limits, I eventually got to the point that they were unable to explain why I was having odd complications and significant problems. After trying all their suggestions I eventually went back to using only the basic 4 and the tank was healthier and more colorful than ever before and the odd cases of unexplainable tissue necrosis stopped. Thus my support for using only the basic 4 and nothing else until there is any study showing they are benefical in any way (or at least an indication of what the supplements contain).

I don't want this post to be just a zeo bashing post. I want people to understand that marketing can be very misleading and just becuase someone says some supplement (with unknown contents) will create a specific effect doesn't mean it really will be beneficial. I also want people to know that dosing unknown supplements can easily lead to trace elements and heavy metals raising to dangerous levels. That was clearly evidenced in my tank. I think the zeolites are beneficial for being a great media for bacterial colonization. I do believe the start2 is a carbon source that will increase bacterial proliferation. I'm not convinced it's necessary to add zeobak to a tank to increase the uptake of no3 and po4. I think enough po4 and no3 is added through fish waste therefore there is little need to add zeofood. I think if your maintaining a coral only tank and not providing any supplemental feedings with zooplankton then zeofood may benefical. All the other supplements are out of the question for me and I'd never recommend anyone supplement something that has no indication of it's contents.

This is all just my opinion. Do I think the biopellets can provide a carbon source for bacterial proliferation the same way that dosing start2 does?? Maybe - the initial use of the product sounds encouraging. Would it be easier to set up a reactor and let it run as opposed to twice daily dosing of start2 - got to say yes on that one. Can biopellets be as good or better than the zeo process?? Well, the success of the zeo process is different for many. In some tanks it kills everything (my friend lost a fully matured 300 gallon tank after starting the zeo process and following the dosing guidance to a "T" from the zeo experts. In some tanks it creates spectacular growth and coloration of SPS.

I think the huge benefit of using these biopellets (if the manufacturers claims are true) is that they don't release organic carbon into the tank. This will allow for significant bacterial proliferation for nutrient management without risk of overdosing or causing an imbalance in the growth of the sybiotic bacteria on the surface and inside the corals. I think the addition of bacterioplankton is a significantly overlooked food for corals and varios fauna within a reef tank. I plan to use a small amount of biopellets in my 420 gallon display simply for the generation of bacterioplankton. I'm currently using zeolites and stirring them daily to release the bacterioplankton but from the users posting on this thread it sounds like the bacterioplankton generation is significantly larger from biopellets and that's why I'll be giving the biopellets a try.

Jeremy