LED Myth

Mike de Leon · 12/17/2017, 05:30 PM

So the thought of not having to replace bulbs and therefore saving money, I think, is a myth.

I have owned a couple of LED modules where there's been failures. Costing me more than the cost of replacing halide bulbs and such.

As of late, I had a Radion module fail. Luckily it's only a year old. Otherwise, that would have been big bucks to fix.

A lot of the parts these days are poorly made, unless they come from certain countries that have reputation for good quality products....

Radion should be using good quality products considering how much they charge for their units.

ca1ore · 12/17/2017, 06:41 PM

Maybe yes, maybe no. I've always suspected the claims of LED longevity to be exaggerated .... particularly if you take into account the reliability of all the kit necessary to make the diode work; but my own experience with them has been pretty good. Never was much of a fluorescent user, but when I had MH I did replace all the bulbs annually. I used a pair of ReefBreeders fixtures for four years and had no failures - though some of the lenses probably needed to be replaced, so there were replacement cost savings. Similar experience with Kessil, though only two years so far. My Radions are less than a year old, so no useful conclusion to be had.

n2585722 · 12/17/2017, 06:47 PM

Were you running at 100%? I have Cree LED's that I have used for around 3 years without any failure of either the LED's or the Meanwell drivers. The highest I have ever run them for any length of time was 65%. This is a DIY fixture though.

Bronx19 · 12/17/2017, 07:51 PM

LED is good if you purely want practicality. I think the tide has slowly turned though, people are looking for the performance off older technologies regardless of cost.

jda · 12/18/2017, 03:51 AM

Yes and no. It is not really a myth, but could be. There are so many details and nuance that really matter that nearly nobody takes into account when posting. You hear about the "heat" myth... the "cant grow corals" myth... the "cant color corals" myth, etc. and then see the formulas where LEDs last forever. These are all true and false at the same time depending on what level you are on.

I have large tanks and keep higher-end acropora and a lot of deep waters. I can unequivocally tell you that MH with reflectors cover the area as well as 3x Radion XR30s would, the heat is a blessing and that the color is better than I have ever seen with any LED and every single acropora on the planet will grow from a 1" frag to a cantaloupe sized colony in about three years. For me, all of those are issues with LED. The cost of 24 Radion XR30s is significantly more than the cost of 8 new Phoenix bulbs every other year - assuming a 6 year replacement cycle on the Radions.

However, a cube with a mixed reef in a hot climate would not be happy at all with what I am using. ...neither would people who love to tinker and play with the color and thunderstorms. Some folks will live with anything if the aesthetics in the room are good.

Lastly, there are always the people who are unable to notice any nuance or detail and are not helpful at all with any of these discussions, yet their opinions are equal on a message board and probably should not be. There are people who accept that they cannot keep a certain kind of organism and they have not quite figured out that the light is the big issue where, at best, everything else has to be perfect for them to do well under LED and with any small hiccup, they will fail.

...so not really myth or fact... but different depending on the circumstance and details.

This has nothing to do with this, but I consider EcoTech a tech company and not a reef hobby company. They depend on the upgrade cycle and often offer features to drive sales and not really grow/color coral - this new diffuser is a good example of feature without real accomplishment when some diodes in the 800-825nm range would help with photosynthesis and growth as well as diodes down to 350-360nm, but the wear out fast. I am not saying that the diffuser does not do anything, just that it would not do as much as these other things. They are similar to the iPhone community that kinda shames you if you have a 3-4 year old iPhone that is more than one generation old.

NaturalReef · 12/18/2017, 04:45 AM

Jda,

I agree with most of your sentiments and also agree that halide will grow SPS better than led. But, led’s are here to stay and getting better every year. Ecotech vortech and radion have done more for my sps than any other pump or led fixture I have used in the past. Their coral labs program(feature) is as close to set it and forget it as you will get with excellent results. Their latest G4 has much better spread with less hot spots. Problem with Led’s is they gave the user infinite control and tinkering which Sps frankly don’t care for.

mcgyvr · 12/18/2017, 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike de Leon

So the thought of not having to replace bulbs and therefore saving money, I think, is a myth.

Its not a myth at all.. But many manufacturers are simply not designing them properly as far as thermal management is concerned and allowing them to run hotter than they should and thus the lifespan decreases..
plain and simple.

They are focusing more on aesthetics, noise levels..."my watts are bigger than yours",etc... and thus adequate cooling suffers and out the window the lifespan goes..

rvareef · 12/18/2017, 06:29 AM

Most of the leds last about 2-5 years before they crap out from fan failures/dust. I've had several manufacturers do this(cheap to high end), some offer replacements if you ship them back, some offer discount on a newer unit, some just put you in their ticket system never to be heard from again. I do not have any metal halide or t5 fixtures that crapped out in 2-5 years, most are 5-15 years old and still going strong. Whats not a myth is the led companies love to charge absurd prices and let us be the beta testers.

Ron Reefman · 12/18/2017, 06:32 AM

I'll address the OP and ignore the other posts made here. Do aquarium led fixtures last 20,000 to 30,000 hours? NO WAY! Maybe the leds would if treated well, but the over all fixture will not, no way. And if you bought that when you made the decision to buy, you were tricked by their stating a component life expectancy and you read it as a fixture life expectancy.

However: I switched 4 tanks from MH and t5 to all leds back 6 years ago. My MH bulb replacement cost was over $200/year (7 bulbs at $60/ea replaced over a 2 year period) and t5's were $250/year (12 bulbs at $22 replaced every year). That's over $450/yr for just bulbs. I got 6 EverGrow (same as Reef Breeders) led fixtures in a group buy (good deal) for under $1200. So in 3 years they were not only a big cost savings, they completely paid for themselves when considering just bulb replacement!

Now when it comes to use (or savings) of electricity, I willingly admit I ran 2 chillers and whole house A/C as I live in SW Florida. But with the switch from MH & t5 to all led, my chillers ran less than 1/10th as much and my house A/C ran a little less as well. My first year with leds my home electric bill was over $400 less than the year before. In year 2 I added a heat pump water heater to the house and that year the electric bill went down by another $150.

So my annual savings per year was $450 in bulbs and $400 in electricity. In just 18 months my 6 fixtures completely paid for themselves compared to MH and t5. BTW, I used those fixtures for 5 years and then sold them all for $400 and bought new led fixtures with more color control and way better looking cases when compared to black box leds or even current MH or t5 fixtures.

ca1ore · 12/18/2017, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rvareef

I do not have any metal halide or t5 fixtures that crapped out in 2-5 years, most are 5-15 years old and still going strong. Whats not a myth is the led companies love to charge absurd prices and let us be the beta testers.

You do know that nobody is actually 'forced' to buy said overpriced fixtures, right? Agree with the longevity point though - my original DuplaSunLI HQI fixture lasted me for almost 20 years - well the guts did; the actual fixture rusted out sooner than that.

I think the economics of these things are a bit tricky. In my case, I always seem to be 'upgrading' my lights anyhow (it is a hobby, after all) so whether a light could last for 20,000 hours is mostly moot.

jda · 12/18/2017, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NaturalReef

Jda,

I agree with most of your sentiments and also agree that halide will grow SPS better than led. But, led’s are here to stay and getting better every year. Ecotech vortech and radion have done more for my sps than any other pump or led fixture I have used in the past. Their coral labs program(feature) is as close to set it and forget it as you will get with excellent results. Their latest G4 has much better spread with less hot spots. Problem with Led’s is they gave the user infinite control and tinkering which Sps frankly don’t care for.

I think that the "getting better every year" is almost a myth too. There was a big jump from blue/white to multi-color, but after this, I have not seen much improvement... just in programs and features. It has been ten years. At what point should we just expect that what-is is what-is? What they are is quite useful in some situations but not others.

NaturalReef · 12/18/2017, 08:02 AM

Again, I agree with you. I would have faster growth and color with halides. The reds and green leds are not needed imo. I think the warm whites took care of that. But I like this current iteration of leds with the gadgetry. Different strokes for different folks. I’m sure we both can agree to that.

lingwendil · 12/18/2017, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgyvr

Its not a myth at all.. But many manufacturers are simply not designing them properly as far as thermal management is concerned and allowing them to run hotter than they should and thus the lifespan decreases..
plain and simple.

They are focusing more on aesthetics, noise levels..."my watts are bigger than yours",etc... and thus adequate cooling suffers and out the window the lifespan goes..

All of this, 100%

Most commercial fixtures are made to look sleek and slim, and feature an appealing form factor, and are not as well built as they should be for the money. I have fixtures out in the field that I built five years ago that have been running 100% 10-12 hours daily without failure of any kind, but they also feature very large heatsinks in addition to active cooling. All are still within the expected output from their respective datasheets.

oreo57 · 12/18/2017, 03:17 PM

Thermal stability is advancing quite well..
Large heat sinks/fans are anathema to the major industries using LEDs (no not reef tanks)

Now that said, stable or not, who wants fixtures that will singe your hands. Oh right.. MH...........

Zacktosterone · 12/20/2017, 04:17 PM

when i first bought a radion and dished out 3000 dollars Canadian for 3 g3 pros...then 50 dollars for a hanging kit... then money for my own rail and put it all together i was disappointed. heck as soon as i opened the box i was disappointed.... to pay 1000 dollars for a fixture that is made of plastic and not aluminum is extremely annoying.

my point is... the quality of the product is extremely over rated and i'm a FIRM believer in (you get what you pay for) a giesemann spectra or aurora is better quality or an ati fixture is better quality..... i don't get why radions are so much... it's irritating and I have yet to see a radion out perform a halide especially in terms of coral growth and health for the price.

an led drops in intensity over time, where an led may not shift in spectrum like a halide, they don't emit the same intensity every year. just like everything else... leds degrade as well.... the only plus i see in leds is the heat control... even the controlability is useless in my opinion because the health of the coral relies on stability for the most part so constantly tweaking the fixture is counter productive.

too much money for glitter IMO

THAT BEING SAID, ive seen some pretty cool tanks that are run by black box leds and they do just fine.... one of my favorite tanks is run by halides and black box leds. the colours are amazing

biecacka · 12/20/2017, 06:47 PM

I think we will see more ppl switching to halide and t5 for awhile. I'm. It saying staggering numbers but a good amount I suspect will, I did 2 years ago.

If I had a canopy, I would look into building or having built a large panel led unit. Something similar to what I imagine lingwendil is probably running. Large heat sinks, quality leds, cooling etc. Then hide it in my canopy because it might not be as pretty as a radion or mitra, but it's built to last long term and cover a large area. I am sort of surprised there aren't more DIY led threads going on like this

Corey

ifarmer · 12/22/2017, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Reefman

I'll address the OP and ignore the other posts made here. Do aquarium led fixtures last 20,000 to 30,000 hours? NO WAY! Maybe the leds would if treated well, but the over all fixture will not, no way. And if you bought that when you made the decision to buy, you were tricked by their stating a component life expectancy and you read it as a fixture life expectancy.

However: I switched 4 tanks from MH and t5 to all leds back 6 years ago. My MH bulb replacement cost was over $200/year (7 bulbs at $60/ea replaced over a 2 year period) and t5's were $250/year (12 bulbs at $22 replaced every year). That's over $450/yr for just bulbs. I got 6 EverGrow (same as Reef Breeders) led fixtures in a group buy (good deal) for under $1200. So in 3 years they were not only a big cost savings, they completely paid for themselves when considering just bulb replacement!

Now when it comes to use (or savings) of electricity, I willingly admit I ran 2 chillers and whole house A/C as I live in SW Florida. But with the switch from MH & t5 to all led, my chillers ran less than 1/10th as much and my house A/C ran a little less as well. My first year with leds my home electric bill was over $400 less than the year before. In year 2 I added a heat pump water heater to the house and that year the electric bill went down by another $150.

So my annual savings per year was $450 in bulbs and $400 in electricity. In just 18 months my 6 fixtures completely paid for themselves compared to MH and t5. BTW, I used those fixtures for 5 years and then sold them all for $400 and bought new led fixtures with more color control and way better looking cases when compared to black box leds or even current MH or t5 fixtures.

Did you get better result after the switch?
Better coloration ? You 100% satified?

Sent from my GT-I9192 using Tapatalk

Ron Reefman · 12/23/2017, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ifarmer

Did you get better result after the switch?
Better coloration ? You 100% satified?

To be honest, the first 6 months were kind of trial and error. But once I got the power levels up and got a PAR meter to know just where I was at, I was very happy with them.

Under more white midday settings the corals look almost the same (in terms of coloration) as under MH & t5 combo fixtures. But under late morning and early afternoon setting which were cooler white, the colors have a little bit more pop. The HUGE difference for me was when I saw how many corals fluoresce under the more blue settings. The last 3 hours of my sunset is way more blue and I've gone for corals that fluoresce better and the tank looks like Pandora at night (think the movie Avatar).

I snorkel a lot and I know very well what real reefs look like. And during the 6 to 8 hour midday, my tank looks pretty normal. But I have come to love the pop and crazy colors early in the morning and in the evening. It's really like deep ocean bio-luminescence or something totally alien.

As for coral growth, it's an 80:20 issue. The 80% happy is that the corals grow just as fast and as healthy as before. The 20% is the fact that leds do have very focused light and most branching sps corals do tend to get bare on the bottom of thick branches and on the undersides of thick colonies like birdsnest and pocillopora. It was an issue I could deal with much of the time by regular maintenance fragging.

The biggest change, and for me, the biggest thing I like about leds is the ability to control the light (if you get a quality fixture). My current leds all have the ability to do multi channel (6) color and sunrise/sunset control. So the look of my tank changes DRAMATICALLY from early morning dim and blue, to brighter but still blue, to brighter and very cool white, to a medium white midday and the after 4 hours it does the reverse. It's like having more than one tank. And now I even have more white at the front of the tank and more blue at the back of the tank which gives the illusion that the tank is more than just 2' thick.

Am I 100% satisfied? No. But on the other hand, unless something big changes, I'd never go back to MH or t5 and give up the easy control of color and intensity I get with leds. When I decided I wanted to try the white up front and blue in the back idea, I tried doing it with led/t5 combo. I put a cool white t5 at the front and a blue t5 at the back of the tank. The total lack of being able to control how bright the t5's are destroyed the look of the tank. I switched the t5's for led light bars with blue and white led at the front (and 2 channel dimmer control) and all blue in the back (also with dimmer control) and my Photon V2 over the middle of the tank. It works WAY better IMHO.

If I could change anything about led fixtures, would I? Yes. I'd eliminate the red and green leds OR add more and spread all over the fixture, take away the lenses so the spread light better and mix better with the whites and blues and finally, make them on a separate channel from the whites. Mine has reds and greens on two separate channels and I hardly use then except at midday. I'd make the fixtures a little bigger so the array of leds can do a better job of front to back coverage. And the biggest change I'd make is I'd have twice as many blue and violet leds as there are white... maybe even three times as many. Everybody runs their leds with the blue channel at 2 or 3 times the white channel. So why have so many white leds?

jda · 12/23/2017, 08:51 AM

I do agree that most folks do not use the red and green, but they have some big-time uses and are not in good proportion in white diodes. Having yellow, red and green all on different channels would allow you to run some of them pretty high and really pop some green, red and yellow colors as well as get better growth. Red and especially IR relaxes pressure on PSII to move energy to PSI which can help corals overcome photo saturation - this is a big reason why higher output levels from MH or T5 don't seem to burn or slow down coral growth like higher levels of LED lighting does. Green helps to color reds and greens.

The use of yellow, red and green in levels similar to something like a MH would color the coral better so that you don't need the black-light look to enjoy your corals.

Dana Riddle has some nice posts about green, red, far-red and IR lately on the other board. It is probably very likely that most LED manufacturers will start using more far-red and IR for two reasons - one, it helps... and two, they can sell the "upgrades." Some of the Euro units already do this. These diodes are not all that expensive and will last for a typical lifecycle (3-5 years) which makes them easier to add than 350-390nm which are short-lived and expensive.

I also agree that removing the lenses is a good idea. However, PAR numbers drop when you do this since the output is not as focused (like every other light). Now this is complete bunk since the output of the fixture is the same, but they do not measure as well - lose on paper and on a PAR meter, but win at life. This is probably not a problem for your experienced and smart hobbyists who understand stuff, but many of the frontrunners and band wagoners that seem to really chase and upgrade their LEDs will not want to buy a new version of a fixture that pops 25% less on a PAR meter - for many, just asking about PAR is easier than taking the time to understand things and/or use something for a while and figure stuff out for yourself.

12/17/2017, 05:30 PM	#1
Mike de Leon Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Ont. Canada Posts: 2,308	LED Myth So the thought of not having to replace bulbs and therefore saving money, I think, is a myth. I have owned a couple of LED modules where there's been failures. Costing me more than the cost of replacing halide bulbs and such. As of late, I had a Radion module fail. Luckily it's only a year old. Otherwise, that would have been big bucks to fix. A lot of the parts these days are poorly made, unless they come from certain countries that have reputation for good quality products.... Radion should be using good quality products considering how much they charge for their units. __________________ Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.. Current Tank Info: 180 Gallon, 3 G4 Radions

12/17/2017, 06:41 PM	#2
ca1ore Grizzled & Cynical Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 17,319	Maybe yes, maybe no. I've always suspected the claims of LED longevity to be exaggerated .... particularly if you take into account the reliability of all the kit necessary to make the diode work; but my own experience with them has been pretty good. Never was much of a fluorescent user, but when I had MH I did replace all the bulbs annually. I used a pair of ReefBreeders fixtures for four years and had no failures - though some of the lenses probably needed to be replaced, so there were replacement cost savings. Similar experience with Kessil, though only two years so far. My Radions are less than a year old, so no useful conclusion to be had. __________________ Simon Got back into the hobby ..... planned to keep it simple ..... yeah, right ..... clearly I need a new plan! Pet peeve: anemones host clowns; clowns do not host anemones! Current Tank Info: 450 Reef; 120 refugium; 60 Frag Tank, 30 Introduction tank; multiple QTs

12/18/2017, 06:32 AM	#9
Ron Reefman Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Cape Coral, FL Posts: 10,431	I'll address the OP and ignore the other posts made here. Do aquarium led fixtures last 20,000 to 30,000 hours? NO WAY! Maybe the leds would if treated well, but the over all fixture will not, no way. And if you bought that when you made the decision to buy, you were tricked by their stating a component life expectancy and you read it as a fixture life expectancy. However: I switched 4 tanks from MH and t5 to all leds back 6 years ago. My MH bulb replacement cost was over $200/year (7 bulbs at $60/ea replaced over a 2 year period) and t5's were $250/year (12 bulbs at $22 replaced every year). That's over $450/yr for just bulbs. I got 6 EverGrow (same as Reef Breeders) led fixtures in a group buy (good deal) for under $1200. So in 3 years they were not only a big cost savings, they completely paid for themselves when considering just bulb replacement! Now when it comes to use (or savings) of electricity, I willingly admit I ran 2 chillers and whole house A/C as I live in SW Florida. But with the switch from MH & t5 to all led, my chillers ran less than 1/10th as much and my house A/C ran a little less as well. My first year with leds my home electric bill was over $400 less than the year before. In year 2 I added a heat pump water heater to the house and that year the electric bill went down by another $150. So my annual savings per year was $450 in bulbs and $400 in electricity. In just 18 months my 6 fixtures completely paid for themselves compared to MH and t5. BTW, I used those fixtures for 5 years and then sold them all for $400 and bought new led fixtures with more color control and way better looking cases when compared to black box leds or even current MH or t5 fixtures. __________________ The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. (Neil deGrasse Tyson) Visit my build thread http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2593017 Last edited by Ron Reefman; 12/18/2017 at 06:39 AM.

12/20/2017, 04:17 PM	#15
Zacktosterone Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Sault Ste Marie Ont Posts: 2,475	when i first bought a radion and dished out 3000 dollars Canadian for 3 g3 pros...then 50 dollars for a hanging kit... then money for my own rail and put it all together i was disappointed. heck as soon as i opened the box i was disappointed.... to pay 1000 dollars for a fixture that is made of plastic and not aluminum is extremely annoying. my point is... the quality of the product is extremely over rated and i'm a FIRM believer in (you get what you pay for) a giesemann spectra or aurora is better quality or an ati fixture is better quality..... i don't get why radions are so much... it's irritating and I have yet to see a radion out perform a halide especially in terms of coral growth and health for the price. an led drops in intensity over time, where an led may not shift in spectrum like a halide, they don't emit the same intensity every year. just like everything else... leds degrade as well.... the only plus i see in leds is the heat control... even the controlability is useless in my opinion because the health of the coral relies on stability for the most part so constantly tweaking the fixture is counter productive. too much money for glitter IMO THAT BEING SAID, ive seen some pretty cool tanks that are run by black box leds and they do just fine.... one of my favorite tanks is run by halides and black box leds. the colours are amazing Last edited by Zacktosterone; 12/20/2017 at 04:27 PM.

12/17/2017, 06:47 PM	#3
n2585722 Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Cedar Park, Tx Posts: 1,072	Were you running at 100%? I have Cree LED's that I have used for around 3 years without any failure of either the LED's or the Meanwell drivers. The highest I have ever run them for any length of time was 65%. This is a DIY fixture though.

12/17/2017, 07:51 PM	#4
Bronx19 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223	LED is good if you purely want practicality. I think the tide has slowly turned though, people are looking for the performance off older technologies regardless of cost.

12/18/2017, 03:51 AM	#5
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	Yes and no. It is not really a myth, but could be. There are so many details and nuance that really matter that nearly nobody takes into account when posting. You hear about the "heat" myth... the "cant grow corals" myth... the "cant color corals" myth, etc. and then see the formulas where LEDs last forever. These are all true and false at the same time depending on what level you are on. I have large tanks and keep higher-end acropora and a lot of deep waters. I can unequivocally tell you that MH with reflectors cover the area as well as 3x Radion XR30s would, the heat is a blessing and that the color is better than I have ever seen with any LED and every single acropora on the planet will grow from a 1" frag to a cantaloupe sized colony in about three years. For me, all of those are issues with LED. The cost of 24 Radion XR30s is significantly more than the cost of 8 new Phoenix bulbs every other year - assuming a 6 year replacement cycle on the Radions. However, a cube with a mixed reef in a hot climate would not be happy at all with what I am using. ...neither would people who love to tinker and play with the color and thunderstorms. Some folks will live with anything if the aesthetics in the room are good. Lastly, there are always the people who are unable to notice any nuance or detail and are not helpful at all with any of these discussions, yet their opinions are equal on a message board and probably should not be. There are people who accept that they cannot keep a certain kind of organism and they have not quite figured out that the light is the big issue where, at best, everything else has to be perfect for them to do well under LED and with any small hiccup, they will fail. ...so not really myth or fact... but different depending on the circumstance and details. This has nothing to do with this, but I consider EcoTech a tech company and not a reef hobby company. They depend on the upgrade cycle and often offer features to drive sales and not really grow/color coral - this new diffuser is a good example of feature without real accomplishment when some diodes in the 800-825nm range would help with photosynthesis and growth as well as diodes down to 350-360nm, but the wear out fast. I am not saying that the diffuser does not do anything, just that it would not do as much as these other things. They are similar to the iPhone community that kinda shames you if you have a 3-4 year old iPhone that is more than one generation old.

12/18/2017, 04:45 AM	#6
NaturalReef Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kankakee,Illinois Posts: 369	Jda, I agree with most of your sentiments and also agree that halide will grow SPS better than led. But, led’s are here to stay and getting better every year. Ecotech vortech and radion have done more for my sps than any other pump or led fixture I have used in the past. Their coral labs program(feature) is as close to set it and forget it as you will get with excellent results. Their latest G4 has much better spread with less hot spots. Problem with Led’s is they gave the user infinite control and tinkering which Sps frankly don’t care for.

12/18/2017, 06:29 AM	#8
rvareef In Memoriam Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 664	Most of the leds last about 2-5 years before they crap out from fan failures/dust. I've had several manufacturers do this(cheap to high end), some offer replacements if you ship them back, some offer discount on a newer unit, some just put you in their ticket system never to be heard from again. I do not have any metal halide or t5 fixtures that crapped out in 2-5 years, most are 5-15 years old and still going strong. Whats not a myth is the led companies love to charge absurd prices and let us be the beta testers.

12/18/2017, 08:02 AM	#12
NaturalReef Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Kankakee,Illinois Posts: 369	Again, I agree with you. I would have faster growth and color with halides. The reds and green leds are not needed imo. I think the warm whites took care of that. But I like this current iteration of leds with the gadgetry. Different strokes for different folks. I’m sure we both can agree to that.

12/18/2017, 03:17 PM	#14
oreo57 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 1,793	Thermal stability is advancing quite well.. Large heat sinks/fans are anathema to the major industries using LEDs (no not reef tanks) Now that said, stable or not, who wants fixtures that will singe your hands. Oh right.. MH...........

12/20/2017, 06:47 PM	#16
biecacka Registered Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Columbus Ohio Posts: 6,361	I think we will see more ppl switching to halide and t5 for awhile. I'm. It saying staggering numbers but a good amount I suspect will, I did 2 years ago. If I had a canopy, I would look into building or having built a large panel led unit. Something similar to what I imagine lingwendil is probably running. Large heat sinks, quality leds, cooling etc. Then hide it in my canopy because it might not be as pretty as a radion or mitra, but it's built to last long term and cover a large area. I am sort of surprised there aren't more DIY led threads going on like this Corey

12/23/2017, 08:51 AM	#19
jda Dogmatic Dinosaur Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Boulder, CO Posts: 6,256	I do agree that most folks do not use the red and green, but they have some big-time uses and are not in good proportion in white diodes. Having yellow, red and green all on different channels would allow you to run some of them pretty high and really pop some green, red and yellow colors as well as get better growth. Red and especially IR relaxes pressure on PSII to move energy to PSI which can help corals overcome photo saturation - this is a big reason why higher output levels from MH or T5 don't seem to burn or slow down coral growth like higher levels of LED lighting does. Green helps to color reds and greens. The use of yellow, red and green in levels similar to something like a MH would color the coral better so that you don't need the black-light look to enjoy your corals. Dana Riddle has some nice posts about green, red, far-red and IR lately on the other board. It is probably very likely that most LED manufacturers will start using more far-red and IR for two reasons - one, it helps... and two, they can sell the "upgrades." Some of the Euro units already do this. These diodes are not all that expensive and will last for a typical lifecycle (3-5 years) which makes them easier to add than 350-390nm which are short-lived and expensive. I also agree that removing the lenses is a good idea. However, PAR numbers drop when you do this since the output is not as focused (like every other light). Now this is complete bunk since the output of the fixture is the same, but they do not measure as well - lose on paper and on a PAR meter, but win at life. This is probably not a problem for your experienced and smart hobbyists who understand stuff, but many of the frontrunners and band wagoners that seem to really chase and upgrade their LEDs will not want to buy a new version of a fixture that pops 25% less on a PAR meter - for many, just asking about PAR is easier than taking the time to understand things and/or use something for a while and figure stuff out for yourself.