Cupramine and Flame Angle

[Bob46]

I want to treat my 2 Clowns a Lawnmower Blenny, Flame Angel, Royal Gramma with Cupramine. But before I do I just want to make sure this correct.

(.381) * (strength of dose) * (gallons being treated) = mL of Cupramine to dose

My tank is a 29 gallon and i want to treat at a level of .35 so it would be .381x.35x 28 =3.73 ml.

If that is correct would it be ok to add 1ml day 1 wait a day or two add 1 ml then wait another day or two add 1ml and so on until final dose is reached.I have a copper test kit to monitor the copper level as I go and will be keeping a very close eye on the angel for signs of trouble.Thanks in advance for any input.

[HumbleFish]

According to the directions, 1 mL of Cupramine per 10.5 gallons should give you a concentration of 0.25 mg/L. However, IME that is almost never right - you always have to add a little more than the directions say. What test kit are you using? Seachem or Salifert?

[Bob46]

I got the seachem I'm just hoping I can read the thing. I will be starting the treatment tomorrow.

[HumbleFish]

Originally Posted by Bob46

I got the seachem I'm just hoping I can read the thing. I will be starting the treatment tomorrow.

I would probably add 1ml every 24 hrs until you've got it up to 4ml, and then start testing.

[Deinonych]

Originally Posted by Bob46

I want to treat my 2 Clowns a Lawnmower Blenny, Flame Angel, Royal Gramma with Cupramine. But before I do I just want to make sure this correct.

(.381) * (strength of dose) * (gallons being treated) = mL of Cupramine to dose

My tank is a 29 gallon and i want to treat at a level of .35 so it would be .381x.35x 28 =3.73 ml.

If that is correct would it be ok to add 1ml day 1 wait a day or two add 1 ml then wait another day or two add 1ml and so on until final dose is reached.I have a copper test kit to monitor the copper level as I go and will be keeping a very close eye on the angel for signs of trouble.Thanks in advance for any input.

That formula is the one I've used, so the math looks right. Bear in mind that your 29gal tank may not hold exactly 29 gallons of water, depending on how full it is.

As far as dosing, I like to add slowly over 5 days to ensure the fish acclimate to it.

[Bob46]

Im thinking tomorrow after I catch the 2 last fish and put them in the hospital tank I will dose with 1ml and see where its at.Then I will have a better idea whats going to happen with each dose. Its a 29 gallon that probably has about 27 gallons in it. Is running the copper at .35 going to be strong enough to take care of the ich in 4 weeks? And thanks for the advise everyone.

[jay13]

Seachem posts right in the directions that cupramine should be at a .5 level. Been years since I used it but it sounded high to me. I remember closer to .2 being the norm with copper sulfate. What is the correct dose here?

[Bob46]

I found this on the Seachem site.



ACTION: Cupramine™ eradicates Oodinium and Ich at 0.1–0.2 mg/L, Cryptocaryon at 0.25–0.35 mg/L, Trematodes and other parasites at 0.4–0.5 mg/L. With a 10–14 day exposure at 0.4 mg/L most infestations will be eradicated and secondary bacterial and fungal infections will be controlled.

[Bob46]

The only reason im dosing to .35 to .40 is that Angels and blennies dont like copper.

[HumbleFish]

Originally Posted by Bob46

I found this on the Seachem site.



ACTION: Cupramine™ eradicates Oodinium and Ich at 0.1–0.2 mg/L, Cryptocaryon at 0.25–0.35 mg/L, Trematodes and other parasites at 0.4–0.5 mg/L. With a 10–14 day exposure at 0.4 mg/L most infestations will be eradicated and secondary bacterial and fungal infections will be controlled.

I take what I read on any company's website with a grain of salt. I think sometimes the person writing it knows a lot about websites, but not a lot about the actual product. For example, Seachem says this in one of their FAQs:

Q: Can you tell me if Cupramine™ is effective against gill fluke?

A: Yes, Cupramine™ effectively eradicates ectoparasite of both freshwater and marine fish. Please be sure to follow all directions on the product, make sure that you do not mix with any other medications and turn off your UV sterilizer. Please let me know if you have any further questions.

This is not entirely correct. While copper does kill Gyrodactylus, a genus of ectoparasites which afflicts FW fish; it does not eradicate Trematodes, the parasitic flatworms which afflict the skin and gills of SW fish.

Last time I called Seachem, I was told 0.35 mg/L was the minimum therapeutic level for eradicating external parasites in SW fish. But you might want to call them for yourself and see what they say. I've found oftentimes you get more reliable info if you call the company's customer tech support.

[Bob46]

One more ? 2 days ago I did the last dose of Quick Cure (Zinc Free Malachite Green, Formalin) because the Gramma was looking pretty bad. Today I did a 4 gallon water change. Seeming it has been 2 days and I did a Small water change can I assume the Quick Cure is out of the water so I can start my Cupramine treatment? The Gramma is doing alot better no itching and is swimming around alot.

[HumbleFish]

Originally Posted by Bob46

One more ? 2 days ago I did the last dose of Quick Cure (Zinc Free Malachite Green, Formalin) because the Gramma was looking pretty bad. Today I did a 4 gallon water change. Seeming it has been 2 days and I did a Small water change can I assume the Quick Cure is out of the water so I can start my Cupramine treatment? The Gramma is doing alot better no itching and is swimming around alot.

I'm not really sure how long the active ingredients (namely, formalin) found in Quick Cure remain in the water. I would err on the side of caution and run carbon before beginning Cupramine treatment.

If the gramma showed improvement after being exposed to formalin, it could mean he has velvet (which is treatable by Cupramine.) However, it could also mean he has Brooklynella or gill flukes; both of which are not treatable by using Cupramine.

[wooden_reefer]

Originally Posted by jay13

Seachem posts right in the directions that cupramine should be at a .5 level. Been years since I used it but it sounded high to me. I remember closer to .2 being the norm with copper sulfate. What is the correct dose here?

In a tank with calcerous material, straight Cu ions will precipitate out so the concentration drops rather fast.

Some try to achieve a stable concentration, test and add often. An alternative is stronger but shorter pulse and allow concentration to vary somewhat.

I have been using the pulse method with straight copper for decades successfully and have not used chelated copper much.

[Bob46]

The gramma had tiny white grains all over his head and was flashing like crazy. The angel has the same symptoms but is not flashing The blenny is flashing on the sand as where the clowns. Running carbon in the HOB now will leave it in over night and start cupramine tomorrow.

The angel looks good in the DT he is eating well as is the blenny. I dont think 1 more night in the DT is going to hurt them.

[Bob46]

The cleaner shrimp has gone to work overtime on the angel always cleaning. But I realize shrimp dont help much.

[HumbleFish]

I'm confused... are some of these fish already in QT, while some are still in the DT? If so, where did you use Quick Cure? In the QT, I'm assuming?

[Bob46]

Clowns and Gramma in HT. Blenny and Angel in the DT still till tomorrow. Sorry about the confusion.

[Bob46]

I used the Quick Cure in the HT. I would never use anything in the DT.

[HumbleFish]

Gotcha. Seeing you say "tiny white grains" makes me more confident this is ich or velvet, so treating with Cupramine is the right choice.

[Bob46]

Well all fish are now in Ht. I had to take the rock out of my tank to catch them. What a mess.

This is what seachem said about the Quick Cure I used.

Thank you for your email. Formalin is a reducing agent, so it is important that it be fully cleared from your system before you dose Cupramine in the same water. Most often, reducing agents have broken down in the water completely after 72 hours. To be certain, I might recommend using activated carbon in your filter for a day to remove any lingering traces. After the formalin has been cleared from your system, it is safe to use Cupramine in your hospital tank.

[HumbleFish]

Originally Posted by Bob46

Well all fish are now in Ht. I had to take the rock out of my tank to catch them. What a mess.

This is what seachem said about the Quick Cure I used.

Thank you for your email. Formalin is a reducing agent, so it is important that it be fully cleared from your system before you dose Cupramine in the same water. Most often, reducing agents have broken down in the water completely after 72 hours. To be certain, I might recommend using activated carbon in your filter for a day to remove any lingering traces. After the formalin has been cleared from your system, it is safe to use Cupramine in your hospital tank.

That's what I figured, but getting confirmation from them is good to know.

[jay13]

Originally Posted by HumbleFish

I take what I read on any company's website with a grain of salt. I think sometimes the person writing it knows a lot about websites, but not a lot about the actual product. For example, Seachem says this in one of their FAQs:



This is not entirely correct. While copper does kill Gyrodactylus, a genus of ectoparasites which afflicts FW fish; it does not eradicate Trematodes, the parasitic flatworms which afflict the skin and gills of SW fish.

Last time I called Seachem, I was told 0.35 mg/L was the minimum therapeutic level for eradicating external parasites in SW fish. But you might want to call them for yourself and see what they say. I've found oftentimes you get more reliable info if you call the company's customer tech support.

So what is your take? As I stated "back in the day" copper was at 0.20mg/l and this cupramine says anywhere from 0.35 to 0.5. If mardel was still in business and regular old coppersafe was readily available I would be more at ease. Not sure if I like cupramine...

[HumbleFish]

Originally Posted by jay13

So what is your take? As I stated "back in the day" copper was at 0.20mg/l and this cupramine says anywhere from 0.35 to 0.5. If mardel was still in business and regular old coppersafe was readily available I would be more at ease. Not sure if I like cupramine...

I'm with ya. It took me awhile to transition from Coppersafe to Cupramine, and I still don't see how it's "less harsh" because I never had problems with Coppersafe in the first place.

I use Salifert test kit with Cupramine, and what I do is get the color to just about the 0.5 mark but not quite. That way I know I'm covered (since I'm above 0.35), but not overdosing it. But I take 4-5 days to ramp it up that high, and leave it there for 30 days. If a fish stops eating for more than 3-4 days while using Cupramine, I abort and just do TT or use CP. Honestly, since discovering both of those I've pretty much stopped using copper expect for wrasses.

[lhm nole]

Originally Posted by jay13

So what is your take? As I stated "back in the day" copper was at 0.20mg/l and this cupramine says anywhere from 0.35 to 0.5. If mardel was still in business and regular old coppersafe was readily available I would be more at ease. Not sure if I like cupramine...

Agree loved coppersafe not so much cupramine had my disasters with it

[jay13]

Contacted fritz who is going to produce mardel products. They emailed back this morning and are set to distribute coppersafe and all the other products by late October. So that definetly works.