Nitrate Dosing, Carbon Dosing, Po4 Remover...Still HA...

[netsequent]

Originally Posted by Horace

I gotta say, I have never been more frustrated with this hobby. The thing is I KNOW its a nutrient problem, and I know all the normal ways to deal with them, but for some reason, I cannot seem to get it under control.

What are your tank inhabitants, what and how much do you feed?

Have you tested your RO/DI system?

[Horace]

Originally Posted by netsequent

What are your tank inhabitants, what and how much do you feed?

Have you tested your RO/DI system?

I have about 10 med to small fish. I feed about 2 cubes of food per day, or a few small pinches of flake or pellets.

No ive not tested my ro because i run ro/di. The tds meter reads 0 TDS, so im not thinking that can be the problem.

[Daddyrawg]

How long has your tank been up?

[Scrubber_steve]

What light are you using for the chaeto, & how many hours are you running it?

[Big E]

Originally Posted by speedstar

If you want to increase Nitrates to pull out PO4, I would remove the macro algae so it doesn't take up instantly the No3. Then start the vodka method to pull both the nitrate and Phosphate out together in ratio.

hope that made sense

This is good advice...............if you're going to carbon dose get rid of the algae filter. They don't work together.............algae competes with the corals and anaerobic bacteria that the carbon dosing is trying to populate at a higher level. This is why all the commercial bacterial systems will tell you to ditch the algae filter.

If you're going to go with an efficient algae filter than you're going to have to dose nitrates to get the algae filter to work at it's peak. Otherwise in most cases you'll continue to have limited nitrates. A lot of macro algae we use consumes at a rate that is 100-1 or higher.

The hair algae on the rocks is much more efficient when it has fronds that can catch detritus and fuel itself. You'll need to get that down to a level that snails and a tang if you have one, can keep ahead of it.

You went down the chemical road and the results were what was expected......short term eradication. You didn't address the problem just put a band-aid over it.

There are huge threads on Vibrant(bacterial route) as a way to kill it but you again need to ditch the algae filter. I don't think it's a good product to use on a continual basis as it's too efficient and will steal so much that it can affect the corals. Soooo, eventually you have to come up with an export system that will work. This comes down to knowing the limitations of each and using them correctly.

Your first step is to stop with the shotgun approach.

If you're looking at a bacterial system to use for steady state, I'd seriously consider Tropic Marin bacto balance. It's very simple(compared to zeo and others) not harsh and also inexpensive. It will keep a balanced ratio on your system without limiting P04 or N03.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by Daddyrawg

How long has your tank been up?

Tank is 1 year old

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Horace]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

What light are you using for the chaeto, & how many hours are you running it?

The cheato actually got full of red slime and HA so i removed 90% of it. Im using 2 warm white led fixtures for lighting the outdoors. They are bright as hell. I run at night for 10 hrs.



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Horace

The cheato actually got full of red slime and HA so i removed 90% of it. Im using 2 warm white led fixtures for lighting the outdoors. They are bright as hell. I run at night for 10 hrs.
Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

My thoughts are the battle between the algaes - hair & chaeto, & putting your chaeto in charge.
The hair has the advantage because it is faster metabolising - faster growing, & will take the necessary & valuable algae nutrients faster than the chaeto.

You need to creat the optimal environment in your fuge for your chaeto to thrive to its maximum potential, & out compete the hair. This, to me means getting a LED with the specific spectrum, predominently red 660nm, the optimal intensity (adjustable would be good, if only in height adjustment), & illumination period, which could be 24/7 illumination. at least for the duration.

I would also forget the PO4 remover & vinegar dosing (it hasn't worked) & let the chaeto use it.

Just my opinion, but it worked for me (algae scrubber).

[Horace]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

My thoughts are the battle between the algaes - hair & chaeto, & putting your chaeto in charge.
The hair has the advantage because it is faster metabolising - faster growing, & will take the necessary & valuable algae nutrients faster than the chaeto.

You need to creat the optimal environment in your fuge for your chaeto to thrive to its maximum potential, & out compete the hair. This, to me means getting a LED with the specific spectrum, predominently red 660nm, the optimal intensity (adjustable would be good, if only in height adjustment), & illumination period, which could be 24/7 illumination. at least for the duration.

I would also forget the PO4 remover & vinegar dosing (it hasn't worked) & let the chaeto use it.

Just my opinion, but it worked for me (algae scrubber).

So i used to have an algae scrubber. It worked ok but was a maintenance nightmare. I was constantly messing with it. It was also very loud so i just removed it out if frustration.

I have contemplated getting one of the santamontica floating scrubbers, but dang those are expensive and still need an air pump (yet more noise).

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Horace]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

A multi-pronged approach might be advisable.

1. Add clean-up crew to include Urchins
Some algae is always trying to pop up in healthy systems. You need things to keep it from getting out of hand.
2. Skim super wet and replace water with new ASW
This removes the most bad stuff possible. The additional new water helps the cause too.
3. Vodka and/or vinegar... it will work
4. Elbow grease... where possible remove the HA. You could remove any rocks that are possible to remove and scrub them with H2O2 also.
5. Run GFO & pay attention to when it is depleted

If you have HA, you have available nitrogen and phosphate regardless of whet your tests say. Don't add more. Quit adding stuff to "kill" the algae. Be patient.

So besides testing for p04 with a hanna, how else do i know when the po4 remover is depleated? My tank water tests very low. Even my triton test showed ideal po4 levels in the water. Other than just being aggressive and replacing frequently, i dont know a good way to know.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by Horace

So besides testing for p04 with a hanna, how else do i know when the po4 remover is depleated? My tank water tests very low. Even my triton test showed ideal po4 levels in the water. Other than just being aggressive and replacing frequently, i dont know a good way to know.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yea... where HA present, free phosphate usually tests low.

You might normally see an increase of film algae on the glass when phosphates start to rise due to depletion of the GFO. However, when HA is present, it may use any additional phosphate so you might never see any changes on the glass.

Unfortunately, there isn't an objective way to tell other than testing the output of the reactor as compared to the level in the DT. At low levels, even that's a crap shoot.

Your tank is a young. You're going to fight algae and other stuff until the system matures. My tank is in the same phase. I get mostly Cyano but luckily only a little hair algae. I let it get out of hand a while back believing what I read about higher nutrient levels being ok. I finally got tired of the ugliness and resolved to keep nutrients very low until the tank matures. Things are getting under control and the tank is looking better. Here's what I'm doing.

I wipe off anything that grows on the glass and overflow tower every couple of days and let a filter sock get it. I use a power head to blow detritus and any Cyano off the rocks and let the filter sock get it during weekly water changes. I change filter socks every few days. I even remove the rocks that are easy to get to and have no corals on them and scrub them with H202 occasionally. I dose 28 ml/day of vinegar. I dose potassium nitrate to keep the nitrate level detectable to allow the carbon dosing to remove some phosphate. I use 1/8th cup of GFO in a small, low flow reactor and change it weekly. I have two Tangs, some snails & hermit crabs, and an Urchin to help me out also. Generally, my nitrate tests show just a hint of nitrate on my Salifert kit and my phosphates are zero to maybe .03 ppm per my Hanna ULR. With very little algae or Cyano in the tank to use nutrients now , I think those readings are pretty true. My SPS corals are growing ok, but not very colorful. That's ok with me for now, I can get them to color up after the tank matures.

I'm not saying you should do the same. I just wanted to pass on my experiences.

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Horace

So i used to have an algae scrubber. It worked ok but was a maintenance nightmare. I was constantly messing with it. It was also very loud so i just removed it out if frustration.

I have contemplated getting one of the santamontica floating scrubbers, but dang those are expensive and still need an air pump (yet more noise).

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I never said a word about changing to a scrubber?

[Horace]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

Yea... where HA present, free phosphate usually tests low.

You might normally see an increase of film algae on the glass when phosphates start to rise due to depletion of the GFO. However, when HA is present, it may use any additional phosphate so you might never see any changes on the glass.

Unfortunately, there isn't an objective way to tell other than testing the output of the reactor as compared to the level in the DT. At low levels, even that's a crap shoot.

Your tank is a young. You're going to fight algae and other stuff until the system matures. My tank is in the same phase. I get mostly Cyano but luckily only a little hair algae. I let it get out of hand a while back believing what I read about higher nutrient levels being ok. I finally got tired of the ugliness and resolved to keep nutrients very low until the tank matures. Things are getting under control and the tank is looking better. Here's what I'm doing.

I wipe off anything that grows on the glass and overflow tower every couple of days and let a filter sock get it. I use a power head to blow detritus and any Cyano off the rocks and let the filter sock get it during weekly water changes. I change filter socks every few days. I even remove the rocks that are easy to get to and have no corals on them and scrub them with H202 occasionally. I dose 28 ml/day of vinegar. I dose potassium nitrate to keep the nitrate level detectable to allow the carbon dosing to remove some phosphate. I use 1/8th cup of GFO in a small, low flow reactor and change it weekly. I have two Tangs, some snails & hermit crabs, and an Urchin to help me out also. Generally, my nitrate tests show just a hint of nitrate on my Salifert kit and my phosphates are zero to maybe .03 ppm per my Hanna ULR. With very little algae or Cyano in the tank to use nutrients now , I think those readings are pretty true. My SPS corals are growing ok, but not very colorful. That's ok with me for now, I can get them to color up after the tank matures.

I'm not saying you should do the same. I just wanted to pass on my experiences.

Your routine sounds precisely what i was doing. My SPS look just OK....def not what im used to. Funny, my last tank i had to add nutrients, this tank has too many.....so frustrating. Oddly i didnt ha e to go through nearly this level of effort to get rid of po4 previously. What sucks is to get my nutrients to a level that the HA stops hurts my corals....its a no win situation lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Horace]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

I never said a word about changing to a scrubber?

You didnt, but ive tried pretty much everything you have mentioned. I may try reworking the lighting a bit in my sump though.

While you didnt suggest it...i do think a ATS is something that would help...i just couldn't deal with how loud mine was. I had a spray bar design and i was constantly cleaning the holes and the sound of the water leaving the box was like water constantly going down a sink drain. So annoying! I probably should have went with simpler is better and go with the basic design where the screen goes into the water to avoid the waterfall sound. I was just paranoid about the spraybar getting plugged and squirting water on my floor.

Here was my ATS..



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Horace

You didnt, but ive tried pretty much everything you have mentioned. I may try reworking the lighting a bit in my sump though.

While you didnt suggest it...i do think a ATS is something that would help...i just couldn't deal with how loud mine was. I had a spray bar design and i was constantly cleaning the holes and the sound of the water leaving the box was like water constantly going down a sink drain. So annoying! I probably should have went with simpler is better and go with the basic design where the screen goes into the water to avoid the waterfall sound. I was just paranoid about the spraybar getting plugged and squirting water on my floor.

Here was my ATS..



Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Yes, a scrubber is more effective. Sorry, but I believe you were warned that the holes in the spray bar would need a lot of maintenance. And yes, the water running down a screen into the water is quiter than piping.
Good luck with it.

[bblumberg]

I am late to the thread here, but have you tried adding more voracious algae grazers? A single lawnmower blennie in each tank did a great job cleaning up algae in both my 150g and 75g reefs. A foxface rabbitfish got rid of bubble algae in my 75 in just a few days and I have not seen it come back so I put one in my 150g as well.

Also, perhaps I missed this, but what type of lighting does your tank have? I thought it was a good idea to replace some of the cool white (6500K) LEDS in my (now defunct) nano tank with a mixture of warm white (2700K) and neutral white (5000K) and immediately developed a hair algae problem. Just a thought. My 150g has 4 neutral white (4000K) COB LEDs but I don't run them because I start to see algae within a few days whenever they are on.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by Twinfallz

Yes, a scrubber is more effective. Sorry, but I believe you were warned that the holes in the spray bar would need a lot of maintenance. And yes, the water running down a screen into the water is quiter than piping.
Good luck with it.

I had a buddy here who used that design and touted it as superior....so i went with it. He was wrong lol. I threw that thing in the trash....so a new ats would need to be built. I think this time around i would go with the simpler is better solution....

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Horace]

Originally Posted by bblumberg

I am late to the thread here, but have you tried adding more voracious algae grazers? A single lawnmower blennie in each tank did a great job cleaning up algae in both my 150g and 75g reefs. A foxface rabbitfish got rid of bubble algae in my 75 in just a few days and I have not seen it come back so I put one in my 150g as well.

Also, perhaps I missed this, but what type of lighting does your tank have? I thought it was a good idea to replace some of the cool white (6500K) LEDS in my (now defunct) nano tank with a mixture of warm white (2700K) and neutral white (5000K) and immediately developed a hair algae problem. Just a thought. My 150g has 4 neutral white (4000K) COB LEDs but I don't run them because I start to see algae within a few days whenever they are on.

I have the clay-boa Lumias (new version)

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[Scrubber_steve]

Originally Posted by Horace

I had a buddy here who used that design and touted it as superior....so i went with it. He was wrong lol. I threw that thing in the trash....so a new ats would need to be built. I think this time around i would go with the simpler is better solution....

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

The standard slot works well & is easy to clean when necessary.

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by Horace

Your routine sounds precisely what i was doing. My SPS look just OK....def not what im used to. Funny, my last tank i had to add nutrients, this tank has too many.....so frustrating. Oddly i didnt ha e to go through nearly this level of effort to get rid of po4 previously. What sucks is to get my nutrients to a level that the HA stops hurts my corals....its a no win situation lol

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

I hear ya. It sucks when you spend good money, work so hard, and do what you believe you are supposed to do, only to get poor results.

SPS corals shouldn't go in the crapper just because nutrients are low. They may respond poorly to lowering phosphate too quickly though. Pale color should be about the worst thing that low nutrients would cause. You could add amino acids to help the SPS keep some color... maybe.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

I hear ya. It sucks when you spend good money, work so hard, and do what you believe you are supposed to do, only to get poor results.

SPS corals shouldn't go in the crapper just because nutrients are low. They may respond poorly to lowering phosphate too quickly though. Pale color should be about the worst thing that low nutrients would cause. You could add amino acids to help the SPS keep some color... maybe.

I have thought about picking up some KZ products to help....such as their coral food and aminos. I am so skeptical about miracles in a bottle though, especially when ive had amazing colors and growth with nothing but good husbandry and light!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by Horace

I have thought about picking up some KZ products to help....such as their coral food and aminos. I am so skeptical about miracles in a bottle though, especially when ive had amazing colors and growth with nothing but good husbandry and light!

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

Amino acids may have some value for nitrogen and carbon replacement if they can be assimilated by the corals. I believe there is always enough phosphate unless your are aggressively removing it with Lanthanum Chloride or GFO. I've seen amino's effect in my tank in the short term... better color fairly quickly... but I don't know if it's a long term solution. They were too expensive to continue for long. You won't need them though unless you intend to drive nutrients down to zero to rid the tank of algae. Personally, if most of your corals are SPS, I'd just live with the poor color for a while and address the algae. As long as the corals are otherwise healthy, the color will come back.

Have you arrived at a method for nutrient control yet? Someone said it before, the shotgun method is problematic. I know you've tried before, but IMO... If you have a decent skimmer & a cheap dosing pump, I would really recommend carbon dosing. It just works. That means using some GFO when needed, and possibly adding nitrates every once in a while to keep a little in the system. I prefer just vinegar or maybe a 9:1 ratio of vinegar to vodka. NoPox is OK if you just must use a commercial product.

For reference, I have a tank half the size of yours that is about the same age. It has eight decent sized fish in it including a Yellow Tang, a Kole Tang, and a Navarchus Angel. The bioload is pretty heavy.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

Amino acids may have some value for nitrogen and carbon replacement if they can be assimilated by the corals. I believe there is always enough phosphate unless your are aggressively removing it with Lanthanum Chloride or GFO. I've seen amino's effect in my tank in the short term... better color fairly quickly... but I don't know if it's a long term solution. They were too expensive to continue for long. You won't need them though unless you intend to drive nutrients down to zero to rid the tank of algae. Personally, if most of your corals are SPS, I'd just live with the poor color for a while and address the algae. As long as the corals are otherwise healthy, the color will come back.

Have you arrived at a method for nutrient control yet? Someone said it before, the shotgun method is problematic. I know you've tried before, but IMO... If you have a decent skimmer & a cheap dosing pump, I would really recommend carbon dosing. It just works. That means using some GFO when needed, and possibly adding nitrates every once in a while to keep a little in the system. I prefer just vinegar or maybe a 9:1 ratio of vinegar to vodka. NoPox is OK if you just must use a commercial product.

For reference, I have a tank half the size of yours that is about the same age. It has eight decent sized fish in it including a Yellow Tang, a Kole Tang, and a Navarchus Angel. The bioload is pretty heavy.

Today I have the following nutrient reduction methods in place:
-GFO - Rowaphos
-Carbon (i dont run it 100% of the time) - Currently using ROX carbon from BFS
- 30" Life Reef Skimmer
- I have been adding Potassium Nitrate to the tank as well to keep the nitrate from hitting zero, which it does fairly rapidly. Ive not added any in a couple weeks though, so its probably time to add more. My experience was when adding that, the algae grew like crazy...and I was also having SPS issues around the time, so I stoppped dosing it just incase it was related.

-As noted, I DID dose Vinegar...I was dosing quite a lot....Up to 120ml per day (220g total volume). What i noticed was a HUGE bloom of red slime while doing carbon dosing. As with everything, I cant 100% attribute that to the carbon dosing, but it certainly SEEMED correlated. Right now, i still do have a bit of red slime here and there, but its like 5% of what I had before....so its controlled ATM it seems.

About a month ago I added about 1.5 cups of Rowaphos to the tank. My thought was THAT should do the trick for knocking out the po4. It very well may have, but the HA has NOT gone away, it just seems to have slowed its growth substantially. Killing HA seems to require near zero nutrients once it is established. I THINK what happened when I dosed that chemical to kill it, it mearly released those nutrients back into the water column, and I didnt absorb them fast enough (not enough GFO) to prevent the regrowth. I SHOULD have been super aggressive with the GFO as soon as the algae started to die...but unfortunately hind sight is 20/20.

[reefgeezer]

Originally Posted by Horace

...- I have been adding Potassium Nitrate to the tank as well to keep the nitrate from hitting zero, which it does fairly rapidly.

-As noted, I DID dose Vinegar... I THINK what happened when I dosed that chemical to kill it, it mearly released those nutrients back into the water column, and I didnt absorb them fast enough (not enough GFO) to prevent the regrowth. I SHOULD have been super aggressive with the GFO as soon as the algae started to die...but unfortunately hind sight is 20/20.

So, your system right now isn't really running 0 nitrate. It is just being bound by the algae. Adding more nitrate now will just feed the algae more. I mentioned adding nitrate for sometime later. I add it now because I've passed the problematic algae phase and am just maintaining low nutrients waiting for the tank to mature.

IMO, you need something to compete for nutrients with the algae that is located in the same place as the algae. Bacteria induced by the carbon dosing will do that. Carbon dosing will also create organic molecules that bind free nitrate & phosphate and keep it from the hair algae. Both the bacteria and the organic molecules are removed by your skimmer (Great skimmer by the way) and/or the GAC. Yes, Cyano could occur if you drive the organics too high. As vinegar seems less likely to cause Cyano, start with a low dose and slowly increase it.

Being super aggressive with the GFO might cause you corals suffer. Using less and changing it more often is safer. You can also slow the flow to the reactor to reduce the efficiency.

[Horace]

Originally Posted by reefgeezer

So, your system right now isn't really running 0 nitrate. It is just being bound by the algae. Adding more nitrate now will just feed the algae more. I mentioned adding nitrate for sometime later. I add it now because I've passed the problematic algae phase and am just maintaining low nutrients waiting for the tank to mature.

IMO, you need something to compete for nutrients with the algae that is located in the same place as the algae. Bacteria induced by the carbon dosing will do that. Carbon dosing will also create organic molecules that bind free nitrate & phosphate and keep it from the hair algae. Both the bacteria and the organic molecules are removed by your skimmer (Great skimmer by the way) and/or the GAC. Yes, Cyano could occur if you drive the organics too high. As vinegar seems less likely to cause Cyano, start with a low dose and slowly increase it.

Being super aggressive with the GFO might cause you corals suffer. Using less and changing it more often is safer. You can also slow the flow to the reactor to reduce the efficiency.

i realize there is nitrate bound in the HA, so perhaps adding nitrate is only beneficial when you are carbon dosing, so the bacteria can out compete for the po4 when its nitrogen limited. Ive heard of tanks with super low No3 (mine is), and the only way to really drop the po4 is by adding no3 for the bacteria to grow. So I think all I did was fuel the HA because it is also no3 limited, and since its the most aggressive thing in the tank, it gets first crack at the No3, and it just fuels the HA growth.

I think I may give the Vinegar another try. I did do the recommended dosing schedule that is posted out there. Increasing very slowly over a matter of weeks. I dosed almost a gallon of Vinegar over a period of months....so I did give it a fair trial IMO. Its worth another shot though...i gotta do something . I just dont want my corals to suffer substantially. So I think this go around I will try some aminos while I get super aggressive at nutrient reduction to keep them from getting too malnourished. May try some of that Phol's Coral Vitalizer as well. Apparently it is a Food that isnt supposed to add N/P. Not sure how thats possible though