Fish still flashing after TTM

[Kaiser699a]

Thanks folks for the discussion and ideas. I was trying Paraguard as a general cure but it wasn't helping after TTM I still had a little flashing. I agree there is a risk I could have a tomont come through TTM in a gill however the fish are QTing for another 8 weeks so I will see if ick returns. I did have a couple of fish that were badly infected with loads of white spots (the wrasse was one of them) and they came out of TTM looking clean and eating well so I assumed the ick was cured (although can't be 100% at this point). Maybe it has just been knocked back but still lingered in a gill or two. I will see if that's the case. I think I need to complete the fluke treatment now. I am just not keen on another general cure because I see no symptoms on any of the fish of any disease or parasite only occasional flash from the gramma and wrasse with the likley cause being untreated fulkes or worms.
My TTM was done following closely the directions given on this site - 2 sets of everything, no cross contamination, 4 transfers with 72 hour hold in between for 13 days. Worst affected fish was my blenny and he has no spots and no flashing anymore.
The prazi that I have is Dicus Fluke Solve because that is the only way I can get prazi based meds in the UK. Here are the details:
***
Fluke-Solve for killing tapeworm & flukes
Ornamental fish such as discus can harbour a variety of parasites, and often they remain undiscovered until they have been introduced into a new aquarium. This can be a particular problem with fish which have originated from the wild.

Flukes belong to the group of parasites known as Monogean trematodes. The commonest affecting pet fish are the Dactylogyrus species and Gyrodactylus species.

These parasites, called cestodes or tapeworms, are internal parasites which affect a wide variety of fish species including carp as well as aquarium fish such as discus.


For aquarium tanks, again it may be tricky to have a complete clean out of the system, so annual treatment with Fluke-Solve Aquarium will ensure that the fish remain free of these parasites

Stress can also be a major threat to these fish because of the complete change in their habitat and lifestyle, and so any parasite treatment must be efficient and safe - frequent treatments will not only stress these fish further, but can also pose a risk of the very parasites you are trying to treat developing resistance to some treatments.
Fluke-Solve™ is a specially designed fluke treatment for Discus and other aquarium fish. It contains 50% pure praziquantel in a unique solublising presentation.

Comes in a handy 10 grams sachet to treat 2500 litres (550 gallons)
Easy to use - dissolves quickly without boiling or solvents
Effective - one dose kills adult flukes and larvae
Simple double dosing regime takes care of fluke eggs as well
Filter-safe
Measuring scoop for small tanks

These products are all licensed veterinary medicines under the SAES Scheme.
***

I rang Vetark to ensure this was ok for Marine and they said it was. I have been advised by other UK reef folk that this is good for marine (not inverts) as well.

I am going to do a second dose tomorrow after a water change and see where I am then. I don't think another general cure will improve my decision making at this point. It does mention a second dose required for hatched eggs and the fact my wrasse "calmed" down for a while before starting to flash again has me fairly convinced some eggs were left and hatched after the first treatment.

Good point about ammonia level in my water. To be honest I haven't checked it and will do but wouldn't I be seeing all 7 fish showing signs if that was a problem?

[Jdub968]

+1 on your treatment I would dose the second time as you mentioned. Some fish are more sensetive wrasses being one of them so it's more common to see them react to lower levels of ammonia or a medication. If the wrasse continues to flash after treatment I would do a WC and observe see if the praziquantel is causing the irritation, like wise the paraguard might have irritated him also

[JustinM]

If there was an ammonia spike, not all fish will necessarily show signs of ammonia burns. Also the gills are usually pretty red if that was the case.

[ajm83]

I've used that same Prazi medication a few times now and haven't had any problems.

It would not surprise me if the Paraguard had irritated the gills of the fish. I used it on some chromis the other week and it made them act 'stunned'; flashing on things and darting around as if the lights in the room had just been switched on. They lost their appetite for a few days after treatment also.

[Kaiser699a]

Ok so I did the second prazi treatment yesterday evening. I watched the fish more closely for a longer period after treating this time. It seems like the prazi is causing a bit of irritation because after about 30 mins or so a few of the fish, especially the wrasse I have been mentioning, were swimming in sharp motions and flashing once or twice. All are still feeding well which is a good sign. I will leave the prazi in the tank until the weekend then do a water change and put in some carbon to remove it. Then I am not going to do anything else only observe the fish for at least a week. By that time any irritation should be gone and with the second treatment the flukes and worms should be gone too. I expect zero flashing or sharp swimming at the end of the week. Does this sound reasonable?

[Kaiser699a]

Following second prazi treatment and a few days now to have a water change done and settled unfortunately I am still seeing some flashing. I have seen the gramma flash twice in about 4 hours of observing and the firefish flashed once in the same timeframe. Still no signs of ich returning thankfully. Is this normal? What next? Advice appreciated.

[JustinM]

Some flukes are resistant to prazi and require a third dose. I think I mentioned this to you in a prior post. How long has it been since your last dose?

[Jdub968]

I would continue treatment for 5-7 days it's possible a third dose might be needed. Are you only seeing flashing, respiration is normal? Prazi don't kill flukes it causes them to spasm and fall of the fish then they die cus no host. But these flukes cause small wounds to the fish and as they spasm it can cause irritation also as the wounds heal they itch just like a wound on us. Generally they will scratch on stuff but flashing can also occur. Have you tested the water for ammonia yet? Nitrite unless it's over 2ppm I wouldn't worry to much and nitrate would also have to be high to cause irritation

[Ngoodermuth]

Have you done a fw dip? That would confirm whether or not flukes are still the issue.

As mentioned above, sometimes when fish are healing they will continue to flash because they are simply itchy from all the bites. Think fleas on a dog.

If you do a freshwater dip and find flukes, you may have to switch gears and try formalin baths or hypo-salinity. If you don't find flukes and the flashing persists...you might actually be dealing with something else or the ich is not actually gone :/


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[JustinM]

He is from the U.K. No formalin there unfortunately.

[Jdub968]

No formalin in uk at all? Kordon's Rid ick contained formalin, or fomalin ms and paraguard contains aldehyde not formaldehyde but I believe gluderaldahyd. Which he has tried already

[Kaiser699a]

Ammonia and Nitrite are both 0. It's been 8 days since last prazi treatment. All fish are eating and behaving ok except for the flashing/scratching/flicking off things. Still no signs of any white spots thankfully. The 7 fish are a bit cramped so I expect they are all a bit stressed. My discus fluke solve is prazi based and says 50% prazi on it. If I start a second course treating every 6 days at double dosage do you think that would be good?

[Jdub968]

Do not double dose prazi if your product reccomends a double dose it is probably for a bath for 30 minutes or so that is the only way you can safely double dose. I can't remember all your details in your post however treat with prazi 5-7 days do a WC then re dose 5-7 days you can do a 3 dose of you think it's needed. Fish can continue to scratch after flukes because the sores left behind are healing you could try a Acriflavine bath to help with healing it can be found in Acriflavine ms or ruby reef rally to name a few

[lagatbezan]

I got my formalin from eBay. Maybe see if they are willing to ship to U.K.? You never know.

[JustinM]

I'm pretty sure it's a federal ban on formaldehyde in the UK except in professional situations.

[Kaiser699a]

When dosing praziquantel I put in the dose per volume as directed. Then do I repeat that every day for 5 days or do I leave the single dose in the tank for 5 days then WC and redose? Just want to make sure I'm doing it right. Also need advice with Paraguard treatment. Should I be dosing everyday or does treat for a week mean a single dose then leave it in there for 7 days? I think I'm confusing myself...

[Jdub968]

Prazi is dosed once (on day 1) then a WC 5-7 days later then repeated for another round. Paraguard is dose every day I would recommend treatment for 30 days

[JustinM]

I can't remember, have you FW dipped your fish, maybe after your last treatment.

[Kaiser699a]

I haven't done freshwater dip because last time I completely stressed out my clownfish. Not keen to do it unless completely unavoidable.
Good to know about the Paraguard treatment. Last time (when I thought it didn't work) I had only used it for a few days then gave up! Trying it again and if no joy will redo prazi. My DT is fallow for another 6 weeks so I have time to try both again like this.
My blenny is scratching his belly rather than his gills but I don't know if that is a red herring for diagnosing why they are still scratching. Any thoughts on that or is 30 days Paraguard then 3 treatments with prazi sensible enough at this point? All still eating well and no white spots.

[Jdub968]

Here's the thing without a freshwater dip to confirm flukes we don't know if we're treating it's only a guess. Freshwater dip is much more stressful on the pet owner than the fish as long as it's done correctly. This is how I do it, I use ro/Di water I float my dip container in my qt to bring up to temp during this time I use an air stone in the container to aerate, I donot worry about ph once to temp add the fish for 5 min done! The fish should breath rapidly during treatment it may sink on its side, play dead ect but it will be fine. Then check the container very closely for white opaque flukes if there is no flukes then we can suggest a more appropriate treatment. Good luck

[JustinM]

The dip is necessary to confirm if you still have them. They could possibly just still be irritated from the bite marks, hence the flashing.

[Kaiser699a]

I have been treating with Paraguard now for 7 days. Still some flashing. The Gramma has some "cloudy" patches on his scales but I have been reading a lot and it is unlikely to be Brook or Uronema because he has always had this I just assumed it was symptom of the ich. Surely Brook would have killed him and Uronema would have gone to red sores. I am now getting some Sterazin and Formalin to treat once I quit on the Paraguard again. I am getting frustrated by this and hope it is not something sinister that is lingering in the background waiting to bite my stock. I have read some parasites can cause flicking/flashing but do no harm... sigh...

By the way I find it equally frustrating that although this site is brilliant and provides a lot of help, it seems disease treatment threads just stop! No updates and no follow up.

[JustinM]

What we do on our end is try and help people like you from our experiences and readings. We can only offer advice to the best of our knowledge. As much as I would like for people to get back and update their threads, to let others know if the treatment we offered helped, we can't make them.

I look at things as no news is good news. If there were still problems (like in your case) they would come back asking for more help.

I honestly would ditch the Paraguard because it has obviously not worked, and I see a lot of other people having no luck as well. You need to FW dip to confirm flukes or not, this will give us the confirmation we need to give further advice.

Freshwater dips are stressful, but not as much as you would think. I've done plenty, in my experience the only fish adversely effected were already on their way out.

[Jdub968]

I can't remember all the details on your post and we're getting up
To 50 responses which is a lot of reading so I'm going to make another suggestion on treatment. At some point you need to reasses your treatment and at this point here's what I would do. "Do a fresh water dip" if there is no flukes I would stop all meds and give that poor fish a break while he's recouping do all the water tests amonnia nitrite and nitrate if any of these are out of whack correct these. Do a WC and observe the fish to see if the symptoms worsen. This could be the fish are getting agitated with all the meds.

[lagatbezan]

I would agree with the last two comments about paraguard and since it is not helping I would discontinue using it and let the fish be with no meds and observe for about a week and see how it does. then you can do a fresh water dip and see if anything falls off. But honestly I think maybe certain flukes dont really come off with fw dip or are so small that they are hard to see if/when they fall off. I think I read somewhere that certain gill flukes are resistant to fw dip but not sure.
If still not resolved do a formalin (37%) bath for about 40-50 min max and place fish in a brand new sterile tank. then I would treat with two rounds of general cure 7 days apart and then final formalin bath 7 days latter.
I know you did prazipro but you might get better results with general cure since its in a powder form. Pour it in a cup with some tank water, mix it for a few minutes and add it slowly to the qt.
also some times the scratching could be due to environment factors like if someone using cleaning supplies in the same room and some vapor of it maybe getting into the tank or anything else that can irritate the fish and their gills kinda like when we have allergies and get itchy runny nose.