Flame Angel with suspected stringy poop

[Newms118]

Still have the flame angel in QT. I went through 24 days of Paraguard, and threw in a round of Prazipro at the end of it. The flame angel still has twitches and was flashing with its mouth, so its back on the Paraguard bc I just keep thinking thats flukes.

But the fish is eating, and always seems to hungry, and for the most part, this has been what its poop looks like. Sometimes its whitish, and it tends to kind of trail behind the fish, with more full poop coming in bursts. Is this a sign of internal parasites?






This is pretty infuriating considering ive treated this fish at least 3 times with prazipro. So in addition to the Paraguard, I made up some medicine soaked pellets (1 scoop Metroplex + 1 scoop Focus + 1 teaspoon pellets + Garlic guard/water) bc Ive read metronidazole should be able to treat internal parasites. I now feed the pellets close to one at a time to make sure its eating some of them, which it is. They must not taste great bc if it tastes it before the pellet is down the throat, the fish will try to spit it out.

Any thoughts? Prayers?

[lagatbezan]

How long have you been feeding it metro? It usually takes 5-10 days to cure it. Sometimes more.
Maybe switch to using general cure? It will have prazipro and Metro in it so might help because fish are drinking the water as well. I'm told white stringy poop is sign of internal parasites while black or brown could be the dead parasites leaving the fish or could be due to the diet.
Also if prazipro is not working maybe try doing formalin.
I'm dealing with never ending flashing myself with a racoon butterfly.

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by lagatbezan

How long have you been feeding it metro? It usually takes 5-10 days to cure it. Sometimes more.
Maybe switch to using general cure? It will have prazipro and Metro in it so might help because fish are drinking the water as well. I'm told white stringy poop is sign of internal parasites while black or brown could be the dead parasites leaving the fish or could be due to the diet.
Also if prazipro is not working maybe try doing formalin.
I'm dealing with never ending flashing myself with a racoon butterfly.

Today is day 2 with feeding the metro. The flame angel definitely is not impressed with the food. After a few pellets, itll just go up to it and swim away. However the fish will eat the pellet after its sat at the bottom for a good bit, only thing is I dont know how long the meds stay on the food. Sucks you cant really tell what dose you are giving. I mean, its an antibiotic, so you have to get it in the blood to a certain threshold for it to even work.


Unfortunately I dont know if I can combine Paraguard with metronidazole. Seachems website says no, but who knows. Ill order some general cure to see if I can hit the flukes and whatevers in the stomach. Then I can just treat the water and keep with the feeding. One thing I want to know is how long does the food/meds actually last before it all degrades. I keep it in the fridge just to be safe, but still.


Ive tried so hard to get a video of the fish doing to flashing bc its not just rubbing the mouth. The fish seems to like want to spit something out so it sticks its mouth out really fast and then goes and rubs it on a tube.

[lagatbezan]

You have been treating with paraguard for a little while now right?
If its not helping might be time for something else.
maybe dose metro in the qt water column. That should resolve the white stringy poop.
I personally think I'm dealing with prazi resistant flukes myself on a butterfly. Have done 4 rounds and still shaking the head, yawning and scratching. I think I'm going to do a week in hypo in hopes of eradication.

[JustinM]

How far apart were your prazi doses?

[JustinM]

I also agree that it may be time for something else. I have seen too many people try Paraguard with no results at all.

[lagatbezan]

Originally Posted by JustinM

How far apart were your prazi doses?

Mine were 5 days a part for the first two times, and then another one one week latter. waited a week and still has symptoms. started General cure 2 days ago. gonna do one more in 7 days and then hypo. I would do formalin but it has a cut on its side thats healing but not completely cured so dont wanna risk it.
I never had much luck with paraguard but then again never used it for a long duration.

[JustinM]

Hopefully the hypo will get it for you, if not wait till his wound his healed and formalin should for sure get it.

[lagatbezan]

sorry newms118, have no intention of hijacking your thread.

[JustinM]

Me too, but when I originally asked about the prazi doses, it was meant for newsms haha. He said he only threw a round of prazi in. One dose?

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by JustinM

Me too, but when I originally asked about the prazi doses, it was meant for newsms haha. He said he only threw a round of prazi in. One dose?

No its gone through multiple at this point. Heres the complete treatment history (this has been a loooooooooong journey):

-Obtained flame angel from Live Aquaria on July 17
- 7/18 Precautionary treatment with New Life Spectrum Ich Shield (57 mg / gallon)
- 7/20 water change and added NLS Ich Shield + Prazipro
- 7/23 water change and added NLS Ich Shield + Prazipro
- 8/1 water change and added Prazipro
- 8/20 Formalin dip (30 min) then added Paraguard 0.5 mL/gallon to QT
- 8/21 to 9/12 Paraguard added 0.5 mL/gallon [total of 24 days of treatment]
- 9/19 0.5 mL/gallon Paraguard and Metro soaked food (1:1 Metroplex:Focus)
- 9/20 0.5 mL/gallon Paraguard and Metro soaked food
- 9/21 0.5 mL/gallon Paraguard and Metro soaked food
- 9/22 Removed Paraguard, added one packet of API Quick Cure into QT
- 9/24 Added one packet of API Quick Cure

The Quick cure may (MAY) be getting rid of the stringy poop, but i doubt the prazi in the quick cure will do much since Prazipro has a higher dose of the drug in it.

So far the fish is still twitching, and rubbing its mouth on a tub (where it seems the most bothered). Its probably the prazi causing the flukes to spaz on its mouth, especially when it eats pellets.

Anyone have any luck with Quick Cure for flukes??

[Jdub968]

Yes prazipro is great for flukes however internal anerobic parasites should be treated with metroplex and focus just as you started,treat for 10-14 days and then reasses the fish I would switch foods to spiralina brine shrimp your angel might not like pellet and they need to eat this treatment. Also paraguard is no good for internal parasites it is ok as a prophylactically used treatment at .5 per gal but if you see parasites it's time to change when using paraguard imo it's best used as a bath 3 mls per gal well aerated up to about 1 hr. Metroplex can be used with paraguard.
because all these treatments can mask or somewhat help with parasites I would stick to one treatment see it through and then make changes. I would start with a fresh water dip and look for flukes, if flukes are present dose prazipro,change food and continue with the metro focus treat 10-14 days. Metroplex will also cover brooklynella. If no flukes are present In freshwater dip treat with cu and metroplex dosed to the water, this will take care of internal parasites as well as ecto

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by Jdub968

Yes prazipro is great for flukes however internal anerobic parasites should be treated with metroplex and focus just as you started,treat for 10-14 days and then reasses the fish I would switch foods to spiralina brine shrimp your angel might not like pellet and they need to eat this treatment. Also paraguard is no good for internal parasites it is ok as a prophylactically used treatment at .5 per gal but if you see parasites it's time to change when using paraguard imo it's best used as a bath 3 mls per gal well aerated up to about 1 hr. Metroplex can be used with paraguard.
because all these treatments can mask or somewhat help with parasites I would stick to one treatment see it through and then make changes. I would start with a fresh water dip and look for flukes, if flukes are present dose prazipro,change food and continue with the metro focus treat 10-14 days. Metroplex will also cover brooklynella. If no flukes are present In freshwater dip treat with cu and metroplex dosed to the water, this will take care of internal parasites as well as ecto

So how do you treat the metro/focus on the spiralina brine shrimp? I can get the cubes but do you melt them and them refreeze with the medication on it?

I'm currently dosing the water with API quick cure to see if i can kill the internal parasites first and then focus on the flukes.

[Jdub968]

Here's what I do I defrost two small cubes add the metro 1 scoop and 2 scoops of focus mix it up feed then refrigerate the left over portion and reuse it the next feeding until it's gone keep doing this 10-14 days.
You said api quick cure did you mean api general cure ? I'm not familiar with quick cure. General cure will treat flukes and anerobic parasites so it will treat both your problems because it contains praziquantel and metronidazole.

[JustinM]

I am wondering if your treatment was successful. You treated two days apart then waited 8 days and treated again. Your second dose should never be more than 7 days and being that you dosed two days apart the first time, I would call that one dose. Just a thought.

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by Jdub968

Here's what I do I defrost two small cubes add the metro 1 scoop and 2 scoops of focus mix it up feed then refrigerate the left over portion and reuse it the next feeding until it's gone keep doing this 10-14 days.
You said api quick cure did you mean api general cure ? I'm not familiar with quick cure. General cure will treat flukes and anerobic parasites so it will treat both your problems because it contains praziquantel and metronidazole.

Yeah sorry I meant API General Cure. I just completed 2 packets and changed 25% of the water. Also added a new packet since I read you're supposed to treat metro for at least 7 to 10 days. The fish isnt twitching as much but the stringy poop is still there, maybe its a bit better.

I guess I can try doing the defrost method, I just didnt know how long the food will last when its like that. I think ill try with emerald entree, just thaw one cube until its mush, add the scoops of drugs and see if that helps mask the food. Thing is, if its mush and you add it to the water, doesnt the food just dissolve and go everywhere?

[Jdub968]

Originally Posted by Newms118

Yeah sorry I meant API General Cure. I just completed 2 packets and changed 25% of the water. Also added a new packet since I read you're supposed to treat metro for at least 7 to 10 days. The fish isnt twitching as much but the stringy poop is still there, maybe its a bit better.

I guess I can try doing the defrost method, I just didnt know how long the food will last when its like that. I think ill try with emerald entree, just thaw one cube until its mush, add the scoops of drugs and see if that helps mask the food. Thing is, if its mush and you add it to the water, doesnt the food just dissolve and go everywhere?

I treat with metroplex 10-14 days in tank ,and I'll feed metroplex up to 3 weeks. Yes the food does go everywhere but the focus keeps the metroplex bound to the food. Let the food sit for 10 minutes or so then feed. Also the food will last in the fridge 5 days or so

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by Jdub968

I treat with metroplex 10-14 days in tank ,and I'll feed metroplex up to 3 weeks. Yes the food does go everywhere but the focus keeps the metroplex bound to the food. Let the food sit for 10 minutes or so then feed. Also the food will last in the fridge 5 days or so

Ok so I've been following your conditions, I've thawed 2 cubes spiralina brine shrimp, 1 scoop metrolplex and 2 scoops focus. As for the stringy poop, the poop is sometimes stringy and sometimes more together, but the color is generally matching the food it eats and not just a white string. Main issue to me is how little the flame angel eats. I have to add drops of vita chem plus garlic to get it to come take a bite or two but then it just swims around and comes back up to the surface for more tasty food, ignoring whats on the bottom of the tank.

During the metro food, I've been doing the API General Cure treatment. Ive used 6 of the 10 packets, and today the fish is -still - flashing - its - face :headwall blue:. I understand that the prazipro is a higher dose, but there should still be enough in General Cure to kill the flukes. At this point, with the stringy poop probably 60% resolved, and the fish still scratching the snout/face/mouth, I'm at a loss of what to try. I'm thinking the metro has really suppressed its appetite bc it used to eat much more, and the fish does look a little bit thinner (its definitely not gaining weight), do you think I should stop one of the treatments?

If this is indeed flukes, and its bothering it mouth, its probably a double whammy and making the fish not want to eat. So what will KILL THESE FLUKES DEAD? Rounds of Prazipro just seem to me to be a wasted of time. Paraguard made the fish at least not scratch but it was obviously a bandaid, kept the flukes down enough for the fish to be decent but didn't get rid of them for good.

I'm getting really frustrated with this case.

[Jdub968]

If I'm understanding you correctly you don't wanna treat with general cure and feed metroplex at the same time this could cause an overdose of metronidazole.
If it were my fish I would stop the General cure and continue feeding the metroplex/ focus give the fish a break from the Meds check all water parameters ammonia nitrite and nitrate if out of wack fix the issue, observe the fish for a week or so and see if the scratching stops this could be a symptom of to much meds and its irritating him. If the scratching continues do a fresh water dip in a dark container and look for flukes they will look opaque against a dark background. Also praziquantel can suppress appetite this may be why the fish is not eating.
This is my protocal for flashing scratching heavy breathing
1-fresh water dip look for flukes
2-if flukes treat with prazipro 5-7 days WC then treat again 5-7 days
3- no flukes treat with cu 30 days depending on the fish I might add metroplex to the water for 10-14 days with the cu. the cu covers ick and velvet the metroplex covers brooklynella and uronema.

[JustinM]

For the flukes you could try a formalin bath or you can run hypo for 5 days at 1.011 instead of prazi or general cure. What works for some doesn't always work for others. I would definitely finish the metro/focus blend first.

[JustinM]

Also, the protocol for intestinal worms is 1 scoop of metro to 1 scoop of focus to 1 tablespoon of food. You are mixing 2 scoops of focus possibly diluting the metro.

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by Jdub968

If I'm understanding you correctly you don't wanna treat with general cure and feed metroplex at the same time this could cause an overdose of metronidazole.
If it were my fish I would stop the General cure and continue feeding the metroplex/ focus give the fish a break from the Meds check all water parameters ammonia nitrite and nitrate if out of wack fix the issue, observe the fish for a week or so and see if the scratching stops this could be a symptom of to much meds and its irritating him. If the scratching continues do a fresh water dip in a dark container and look for flukes they will look opaque against a dark background. Also praziquantel can suppress appetite this may be why the fish is not eating.
This is my protocal for flashing scratching heavy breathing
1-fresh water dip look for flukes
2-if flukes treat with prazipro 5-7 days WC then treat again 5-7 days
3- no flukes treat with cu 30 days depending on the fish I might add metroplex to the water for 10-14 days with the cu. the cu covers ick and velvet the metroplex covers brooklynella and uronema.

I thought you wanted to treat with both bc you can't be sure that the General cure is enough. Well I stopped feeding the metronidazole and tomorrow ill change the water as its recommended.

Today I saw the fish had a think white/translucent string hanging from it again. Its barely eating now so maybe this is because its hungry and has nothing in its system anymore. I just can see that after all this metronidazole, in the water and in the food, plus with praziquantel in the water, that the fish would still have intestinal parasites that are resistant to both treatments.

The single reason I don't do a freshwater dip is because its absurdly difficult to get the pH and temp a close match. I would have to fight for hours just to get water correct, especially when the pH is to high, you add water to dilute, that drops the temp, that changes the pH, again and again.

Do flame angels do well in hyposalinity? I have a stupid refractometer that doesn't go low, so Ill have to buy a whole new one to attempt that. I honestly think the flukes are resistant to praziquantel bc of all the times I've treated with General cure and Prazipro. Literally the only time the fish seemed happy was when it was treated with Paraguard and then that stopped working.

I guess for now ill try to remove the medication and just see if I can get the fish eating heavy again, perhaps the stringy poop will just go away on its own.

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by JustinM

For the flukes you could try a formalin bath or you can run hypo for 5 days at 1.011 instead of prazi or general cure. What works for some doesn't always work for others. I would definitely finish the metro/focus blend first.

Tomorrow is the day to change the water from the General Cure, so Ill do that. I think 6 packets is enough to realize this isn't working. Does hypo salinity affect flame angels?

And where in the hell can i get a refractometer that goes down that low? The one I have is a stupid marine depot one that stops at 1.020 I think. Which one do you use, Ill buy that.

[Newms118]

Originally Posted by JustinM

Also, the protocol for intestinal worms is 1 scoop of metro to 1 scoop of focus to 1 tablespoon of food. You are mixing 2 scoops of focus possibly diluting the metro.

i dunno if that really dilutes it much, Focus is supposed to bind it up, so more focus should make it bind stronger. Plus, the fish would eat maybe a few bites of like just the tip of a teaspoon of food before it ignores it completely. I would add drops of vita-chem and garlic to the food, and thats all the response I get. The flame angel is probably the most stubborn fish I've ever had aside from a mandarin goby.

[Jdub968]

You don't need to worry about ph during a freshwater dip it will not hurt the fish.as for temp I just float the container in my qt and put a small plastic clamp to hold it in place then I stick and air stone in and let it sit for about 30 min or so check the temp and net the fish drop him in. Also I've seen several reccomendations by seachem as far as the amount of focus that can be used and its anywhere from1-5 scoops so shouldn't be a problem.

This is how positive I am about ph, when I get new fish I set up my qt to matching salinity as the water the fish was shipping in. I float the bag to temp acclimate 30 min or so, then I cut the bag open net the fish and plop him in the qt. I've never lost a fish doing this. Think of it this way the ph is low in the bag so ammonia is in its safe form as you drip acclimate the ph rises quite fast,this causes the ammonia to convert to ammonium the bad stuff. The ph didn't kill the fish it was the ammonium.