Performing PO4 experiment relating to SPS color/growth

greengeco82 · 03/28/2017, 03:53 PM

My goal is to raise phosphates from 0 to a detectable range. I am hoping to see improved colors in my SPS. 2 corals on my frag rack will be the test subjects. I will update corals when there is a noticeable change or about once a week.

About my tank
My SPS are growing, but seems to lack that vibrant color. Growth is adequate, but IMO slow.
My phosphates read 0 via Hanna Low range, and API. My Nitrates are 15ppm via Red Sea Nitrate Pro. My Ca is about 440, Alk 8. Mag unknown. Every 2 weeks I do a 25 gallon water change with Reef Crystals. My feeding is pellets only via an auto feeder.

Day 1.
Added NeoPhos 3ml to my 180 gallon display. Per instructions 3ml should raise my PO4 to .02. Retested with Hanna and results are 0. Added another 3ml, and per instructions PO4 should raise another .02. Hanna results again 0. Per hanna there is an accuracy of +-.04, so I added another 3ml. I retested with Hanna and results are PO4 .07.

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Mirror Pond · 03/28/2017, 04:29 PM

I can't wait to see your results. I'm having the same issues with almost identical parameters.

vhuang168 · 03/28/2017, 05:36 PM

You should be using the Hanna phosphorus tester. It is more accurate in the ranges we test for.

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Optionman · 03/28/2017, 06:43 PM

Following along. What have you been using prior to this to achieve 0 phosphate?

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bif24701 · 03/28/2017, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhuang168

You should be using the Hanna phosphorus tester. It is more accurate in the ranges we test for.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree, it's very likely he does have some phosphates. Interested to see what comes of this.

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DiscusHeckel · 03/31/2017, 02:10 AM

You are more likely to get better growth and polyp extension than colouration.

I think slightly elevated nitrates will have a more profound impact on colouration in that coral colours will get deep and saturated.

DivingTheWorld · 03/31/2017, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiscusHeckel

You are more likely to get better growth and polyp extension than colouration.

I think slightly elevated nitrates will have a more profound impact on colouration in that coral colours will get deep and saturated.

I agree and IMO elevated Nitrate is helpful for colors. But he stated that his Nitrate is at 15ppm which seems good to me. I also agree to verify your Phosphates using the Hanna "Phosphorous" tester. Though some may disagree, I found it to be more accurate than the ULR Phosphate checker.

I honestly don't really know what to suggest. Your parameters look good as well as your lighting. Are you dosing anything? Do you run Carbon, maybe something in the water effecting lack of coloration?

scar79 · 03/31/2017, 01:54 PM

Just to be clear, Hanna makes two "phosphate" checkers - the Low Range (LR) Phosphate which reads in PPM, and Ultra Low Range (ULR) Phosphorus which reads in PPB.

I ordered myself a phophate checker years ago not realizing there were two versions. Obviously it's much better than a color test (salifert, api, or the like) but I do wish I had gotten the ULR. Just can't bring myself to spend $50 again for a bit more accuracy.

OP keep us posted on this - I'm curious to see what it does to your nitrate levels. Are you running a refugium or anything that will eat up nutrients?

greengeco82 · 03/31/2017, 06:49 PM

I also believe there are/were phosphates, but my checker is not able to detect the low amount. I also wish I had the Ultra Low Phosphorus Hanna, unfortunately I'm not going to purchase one.
At this point, seems the tank is eating the phosphates very fast. I am repeatedly adding more and more phosphate solution to get about .06 on my Hanna. After 24 hours, I get a reading of 0, and have to add more. Nitrates have lowered to 10. I do run a small amount of carbon, but it hasn't been changed in about 3 months, and I wont change it during this experiment. The only things I add to my tank is 2-part dosing from BRS. No other additives.
The corals seem to be doing good. I'd like to believe the coral color is improving, but I usually see what I want to see. Ill take pics of the corals at the 7 day mark.

I am considering an increase in feeding, if my Nitrates lower more.

Optionman · 04/01/2017, 06:21 AM

I'm following along and would like to share my personal findings. I have a 1 yr old 150g mixed reef with 3 tangs and 5 wrasses among a total of 17 fish. I began feeding the tangs a sheet of seaweed daily 2 months ago and feed tank quarter size piece of either rods/mysis/bloodworms 1x/day.

My tank has been very stable for months, ph 7.9-8.15 daily range, Alk 10ish (Hanna), Ca 450 (salifert). I run a 2 stage CArx controlled with apex, skimmer, bag of carbon, and nothing else.

I've never had any algae issues and my coral growth and color is not an issue. I test my Alk weekly, do 30G water changes weekly (RS coral pro) if not every 10days, and otherwise don't test since everything looks great.

After seeing posts about phosphate I took a water sample to LFS and they reported nitrate/phosphate of 0 and .25. Not really trusting this I ordered a Hanna phosphate test kit and it arrived last week just as I saw this thread about PO4 experiment.

My phosphate was .50 and .51 in my first 2 Hanna readings. After a scheduled water change this morning it reads .43 Old nitrate test kit shows colors matching closest to 10 level.

Phosphate.43 and good SPS growth & color with birdsnest, orange digi, sunset monti, green slimer, red planet, etc. + no algae.

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Optionman · 04/01/2017, 10:16 AM

PS, here's my high phosphate reef at 1 year. First corals went in 3/26/16.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEuJyrYRHY&sns=em

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Bryan · 04/04/2017, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Optionman

PS, here's my high phosphate reef at 1 year. First corals went in 3/26/16.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEuJyrYRHY&sns=em

Beautiful tank. When you reference high phosphate swhat are the values you run in the tank? What about nitrate levels?

greengeco82 · 04/04/2017, 03:39 PM

Update
day 1 vs day 7 pictures

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Day 7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Day 7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Day 7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Notes: the first frag got spun around, pic is from different side. Phosphates today are .11. Nitrates are between 15-20. Algae growth on glass seems to be increased. No obvious increased algae growth on rocks. I will update again on day 14.

Optionman · 04/04/2017, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan

Beautiful tank. When you reference high phosphate swhat are the values you run in the tank? What about nitrate levels?

Hanna phosphate test (2x) showed .50 and .51. I ordered a new nitrate test kit which should arrive this weekend. Will update with level when I test with new kit. Prior to two weeks ago I wasn't testing for PO4, only Alk and Ca, but decided to check after seeing numerous posts about GFO reactors and benefits of low phosphate levels.

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Kurt03 · 04/04/2017, 06:32 PM

Would be interesting to track alk usage during this also! Interesting thread, following along.

greengeco82 · 04/12/2017, 02:52 PM

day 1 vs day 15

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

day 15 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]
[url=https://flic.kr/p/Taf2gZ]

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

day 15 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

day 15 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]

greengeco82 · 04/12/2017, 02:57 PM

Not seeing the reaction i wanted. I will probably stop this experiment soon. I'm going to try something else. Possibly adding t5 supplement, and documenting the results. I may keep adding the phosphates for another week, but may not post results unless worthy, or requested.

STILL SEARCHING FOR THAT CANDY LAND COLOR!

Kurt03 · 04/12/2017, 03:56 PM

Has alk consumption changed? Might be too short of time to tell though.

JonezNReef · 04/12/2017, 04:30 PM

Could it be not enough light or flow that is causing less color? Im not saying you have inadiquite equipment but maybe more on placement of the corals. I had a frag rack on the corner of my tank and all the frags started looking less colorful. When I moved the rack to a higher light and flow area the color improved. Also my Tri Color Valida used to look almost strictly green with lighter colored green tips. It was growing but looked bad so I moved it up further in the tank and it improved drastically and actually looked how it should. Doubt this is your problem but just my experience

greengeco82 · 04/12/2017, 10:15 PM

My all consumption has increased. I can't say by how much. I have an auto doser and it always doses the same amount. Usually my all is about 9 dkh. I checked last week and it was between 7 and 8 dkh. I run 2 x 250w halide with a led supplement along the front of the tank. The frags are in the middle of my tank, so they have a light on each side. There is no shadowing, but the lights are not very intense there. I'll keep up the experiment, since people seem interested.

Bagabaga · 04/13/2017, 01:39 AM

If that much growth is slow for 15 days then my corals are hibernating.

bif24701 · 04/13/2017, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagabaga

If that much growth is slow for 15 days then my corals are hibernating.

I know, wish I had that kind of growth!

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JonezNReef · 04/13/2017, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greengeco82

My all consumption has increased. I can't say by how much. I have an auto doser and it always doses the same amount. Usually my all is about 9 dkh. I checked last week and it was between 7 and 8 dkh. I run 2 x 250w halide with a led supplement along the front of the tank. The frags are in the middle of my tank, so they have a light on each side. There is no shadowing, but the lights are not very intense there. I'll keep up the experiment, since people seem interested.

I find it quite interesting when someone takes the time to experiment around and finds out if something helps, hurts or has no effect on a problem we all run into.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagabaga

If that much growth is slow for 15 days then my corals are hibernating.

+1 on that! Looks like I might need to change what Im doing so I can get that kind of growth LOL

greengeco82 · 04/13/2017, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bagabaga

If that much growth is slow for 15 days then my corals are hibernating.

[QUOTE=bif24701;25045442]I know, wish I had that kind of growth!

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonezNReef

I find it quite interesting when someone takes the time to experiment around and finds out if something helps, hurts or has no effect on a problem we all run into.

+1 on that! Looks like I might need to change what Im doing so I can get that kind of growth LOL

Thanks to all of you. I guess I couldn't see the growth, or just attributed it to a slightly different camera view. Its hard to see growth when you look at your tank 10 times a day.

Phosphate consumption seems to be slowing. I initially was dosing about 12ml of the NeoPhos once a day (sometimes twice). I would get a rise in measurable PO3, then 12 hours later, non detectable again. For the last 7 days I have decreased to 7.5ml once a day only. My tests result in PO4 of 0.0-.16 the several times I tested throughout the week. Since the .16 makes me nervous, i am going to reduce to 5ml/day.

Bagabaga · 04/16/2017, 02:16 AM

I'm really interested in this topic because it seems we chase numbers a lot and some tanks aren't stable enough to produce reliable results. I had a short spurt where I noticed my growth, then paeans went haywire from an alk overdose so now I'm recovering again, manual 2 part dosing is hard. Wish I had an auto dosing system.

03/28/2017, 03:53 PM	#1
greengeco82 Reefer Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pittsburg, CA Posts: 584	Performing PO4 experiment relating to SPS color/growth My goal is to raise phosphates from 0 to a detectable range. I am hoping to see improved colors in my SPS. 2 corals on my frag rack will be the test subjects. I will update corals when there is a noticeable change or about once a week. About my tank My SPS are growing, but seems to lack that vibrant color. Growth is adequate, but IMO slow. My phosphates read 0 via Hanna Low range, and API. My Nitrates are 15ppm via Red Sea Nitrate Pro. My Ca is about 440, Alk 8. Mag unknown. Every 2 weeks I do a 25 gallon water change with Reef Crystals. My feeding is pellets only via an auto feeder. Day 1. Added NeoPhos 3ml to my 180 gallon display. Per instructions 3ml should raise my PO4 to .02. Retested with Hanna and results are 0. Added another 3ml, and per instructions PO4 should raise another .02. Hanna results again 0. Per hanna there is an accuracy of +-.04, so I added another 3ml. I retested with Hanna and results are PO4 .07. Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] __________________ Budget reefing is a pipe dream. Current Tank Info: 190 gallon DSA mixed reef, 2 X 250W metal halides, 2 X 80w T5's, SRO 3000 skimmer, and a few other goodies under the hood

03/28/2017, 05:36 PM	#3
vhuang168 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: San Jose, CA Posts: 2,136	You should be using the Hanna phosphorus tester. It is more accurate in the ranges we test for. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk __________________ Vincent 40g custom AIO --> DSA190Pro

03/31/2017, 02:10 AM	#6
DiscusHeckel Acropora Gardener Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Sheffield, UK Posts: 2,780	You are more likely to get better growth and polyp extension than colouration. I think slightly elevated nitrates will have a more profound impact on colouration in that coral colours will get deep and saturated. __________________ Featured Tank OCT 2016 \| "Reef Hobbyist Magazine" TOTM OCT 2016 \| "Ultimate Reef", UK FB \| "/troutsReefTank/" 65G SPS Reef- ATI 8 X 39W PM; TM [Bacto-Balance A-; Reef Actif; Nitribiotic; Iodine]

03/31/2017, 06:49 PM	#9
greengeco82 Reefer Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pittsburg, CA Posts: 584	I also believe there are/were phosphates, but my checker is not able to detect the low amount. I also wish I had the Ultra Low Phosphorus Hanna, unfortunately I'm not going to purchase one. At this point, seems the tank is eating the phosphates very fast. I am repeatedly adding more and more phosphate solution to get about .06 on my Hanna. After 24 hours, I get a reading of 0, and have to add more. Nitrates have lowered to 10. I do run a small amount of carbon, but it hasn't been changed in about 3 months, and I wont change it during this experiment. The only things I add to my tank is 2-part dosing from BRS. No other additives. The corals seem to be doing good. I'd like to believe the coral color is improving, but I usually see what I want to see. Ill take pics of the corals at the 7 day mark. I am considering an increase in feeding, if my Nitrates lower more. __________________ Budget reefing is a pipe dream. Current Tank Info: 190 gallon DSA mixed reef, 2 X 250W metal halides, 2 X 80w T5's, SRO 3000 skimmer, and a few other goodies under the hood Last edited by greengeco82; 03/31/2017 at 07:08 PM.

04/04/2017, 03:39 PM	#13
greengeco82 Reefer Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pittsburg, CA Posts: 584	Update day 1 vs day 7 pictures Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]Day 7 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] Notes: the first frag got spun around, pic is from different side. Phosphates today are .11. Nitrates are between 15-20. Algae growth on glass seems to be increased. No obvious increased algae growth on rocks. I will update again on day 14. __________________ Budget reefing is a pipe dream. Current Tank Info: 190 gallon DSA mixed reef, 2 X 250W metal halides, 2 X 80w T5's, SRO 3000 skimmer, and a few other goodies under the hood Last edited by greengeco82; 04/04/2017 at 03:46 PM.

03/28/2017, 04:29 PM	#2
Mirror Pond Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Oregon Posts: 354	I can't wait to see your results. I'm having the same issues with almost identical parameters.

03/28/2017, 06:43 PM	#4
Optionman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: NJ Posts: 774	Following along. What have you been using prior to this to achieve 0 phosphate? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

03/31/2017, 01:54 PM	#8
scar79 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Southwestern CT Posts: 534	Just to be clear, Hanna makes two "phosphate" checkers - the Low Range (LR) Phosphate which reads in PPM, and Ultra Low Range (ULR) Phosphorus which reads in PPB. I ordered myself a phophate checker years ago not realizing there were two versions. Obviously it's much better than a color test (salifert, api, or the like) but I do wish I had gotten the ULR. Just can't bring myself to spend $50 again for a bit more accuracy. OP keep us posted on this - I'm curious to see what it does to your nitrate levels. Are you running a refugium or anything that will eat up nutrients?

04/01/2017, 06:21 AM	#10
Optionman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: NJ Posts: 774	I'm following along and would like to share my personal findings. I have a 1 yr old 150g mixed reef with 3 tangs and 5 wrasses among a total of 17 fish. I began feeding the tangs a sheet of seaweed daily 2 months ago and feed tank quarter size piece of either rods/mysis/bloodworms 1x/day. My tank has been very stable for months, ph 7.9-8.15 daily range, Alk 10ish (Hanna), Ca 450 (salifert). I run a 2 stage CArx controlled with apex, skimmer, bag of carbon, and nothing else. I've never had any algae issues and my coral growth and color is not an issue. I test my Alk weekly, do 30G water changes weekly (RS coral pro) if not every 10days, and otherwise don't test since everything looks great. After seeing posts about phosphate I took a water sample to LFS and they reported nitrate/phosphate of 0 and .25. Not really trusting this I ordered a Hanna phosphate test kit and it arrived last week just as I saw this thread about PO4 experiment. My phosphate was .50 and .51 in my first 2 Hanna readings. After a scheduled water change this morning it reads .43 Old nitrate test kit shows colors matching closest to 10 level. Phosphate.43 and good SPS growth & color with birdsnest, orange digi, sunset monti, green slimer, red planet, etc. + no algae. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

04/01/2017, 10:16 AM	#11
Optionman Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: NJ Posts: 774	PS, here's my high phosphate reef at 1 year. First corals went in 3/26/16. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcEuJyrYRHY&sns=em Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

04/04/2017, 06:32 PM	#15
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	Would be interesting to track alk usage during this also! Interesting thread, following along.

04/12/2017, 02:52 PM	#16
greengeco82 Reefer Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pittsburg, CA Posts: 584	day 1 vs day 15 Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]day 15 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] [url=https://flic.kr/p/Taf2gZ] Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]day 15 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] Day 1 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/]day 15 by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/145255365@N08/] __________________ Budget reefing is a pipe dream. Current Tank Info: 190 gallon DSA mixed reef, 2 X 250W metal halides, 2 X 80w T5's, SRO 3000 skimmer, and a few other goodies under the hood

04/12/2017, 02:57 PM	#17
greengeco82 Reefer Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pittsburg, CA Posts: 584	Not seeing the reaction i wanted. I will probably stop this experiment soon. I'm going to try something else. Possibly adding t5 supplement, and documenting the results. I may keep adding the phosphates for another week, but may not post results unless worthy, or requested. STILL SEARCHING FOR THAT CANDY LAND COLOR! __________________ Budget reefing is a pipe dream. Current Tank Info: 190 gallon DSA mixed reef, 2 X 250W metal halides, 2 X 80w T5's, SRO 3000 skimmer, and a few other goodies under the hood

04/12/2017, 03:56 PM	#18
Kurt03 Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Ohio Posts: 3,602	Has alk consumption changed? Might be too short of time to tell though.

04/12/2017, 04:30 PM	#19
JonezNReef Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Florida Posts: 782	Could it be not enough light or flow that is causing less color? Im not saying you have inadiquite equipment but maybe more on placement of the corals. I had a frag rack on the corner of my tank and all the frags started looking less colorful. When I moved the rack to a higher light and flow area the color improved. Also my Tri Color Valida used to look almost strictly green with lighter colored green tips. It was growing but looked bad so I moved it up further in the tank and it improved drastically and actually looked how it should. Doubt this is your problem but just my experience __________________ "I chop up animals and glue them to rocks" Current Tank Info: System 1 Mixed Reef: 180g DT,180g Fuge, 120g Sump http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2611735

04/12/2017, 10:15 PM	#20
greengeco82 Reefer Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Pittsburg, CA Posts: 584	My all consumption has increased. I can't say by how much. I have an auto doser and it always doses the same amount. Usually my all is about 9 dkh. I checked last week and it was between 7 and 8 dkh. I run 2 x 250w halide with a led supplement along the front of the tank. The frags are in the middle of my tank, so they have a light on each side. There is no shadowing, but the lights are not very intense there. I'll keep up the experiment, since people seem interested. __________________ Budget reefing is a pipe dream. Current Tank Info: 190 gallon DSA mixed reef, 2 X 250W metal halides, 2 X 80w T5's, SRO 3000 skimmer, and a few other goodies under the hood

04/13/2017, 01:39 AM	#21
Bagabaga Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 517	If that much growth is slow for 15 days then my corals are hibernating.

04/16/2017, 02:16 AM	#25
Bagabaga Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2015 Posts: 517	I'm really interested in this topic because it seems we chase numbers a lot and some tanks aren't stable enough to produce reliable results. I had a short spurt where I noticed my growth, then paeans went haywire from an alk overdose so now I'm recovering again, manual 2 part dosing is hard. Wish I had an auto dosing system.