Reef Central Online Community

Home Forum Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences View New Posts View Today's Posts

Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Search Reefkeeping ...an online magazine for marine aquarists Support our sponsors and mention Reef Central

Go Back   Reef Central Online Community > General Interest Forums > Reef Discussion
Register Blogs FAQ Calendar Mark Forums Read

Notices

User Tag List

Reply
Thread Tools
Old 07/31/2018, 07:28 PM   #1
mtait
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 3
Question Coralline Algae dissapearing

This is my first ever post, so I hope I am doing this right. I have a 90 gallon saltwater tank with a 20g sump/refugium. It's mostly a FOWLR, but I am wanting to start adding some coral. I have one so far. The past few weeks the purple algae on my rocks has just been disappearing. In addition to that, it is not spreading to the new rocks I put in the tank. I was told that low calcium can cause that, but I just tested and I am high, close to 600ppm. (30 drops with the standard 5ml test kit) I checked Carbonate Hardness and the tube turned yellow at about the 8th drop, which I believe is a little low, so I just added a cap full of reef builder. My tank seems clean and healthy otherwise.

I have included some pics. Any ideas?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg liverock1.1.jpg (92.7 KB, 69 views)
File Type: jpg liverock2.1.jpg (94.1 KB, 71 views)
mtait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 02:21 AM   #2
Twinfallz
Registered Member
 
Twinfallz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 522
If PO4 gets a bit high that can be detrimental for coralline growth, so too no3.

Do you have an urchin? I think they eat coralline?


Twinfallz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 07:35 AM   #3
Sugar Magnolia
Registered Member
 
Sugar Magnolia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 17,350
Can you post your actual numbers for calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, pH and temp. It's difficult to maintain proper calcium and alk if the magnesium is low.


__________________
Adrienne

The only thing to fear is fear itself....and spiders.
Sugar Magnolia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 08:48 AM   #4
RioReefr
Registered Member
 
RioReefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Posts: 358
Everything I have read/researched about Coralline Algae....is that you need to keep the water parameters as STABLE as Natural Seawater:

Salinity: 1.025-1.026
pH: 8.3
Calcium: 450
dKh: 8
Nitrates/Phosphates: as close to 0 as possible.
Lighting: preferably blue spectrum wavelength
Temperature: 80 F

Supposedly, pH and Salinity are the most important to keep very stable. Being summertime, are you are using an ATO to keep Salinity stable?

The other thing is flow and detritus buildup -- use a turkey baster or point your powerhead at the rocks containing the coralline. Detritus buildup could be suffocating it.

The likely cause is that water parameters are probably fluctuating too much.


RioReefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 09:16 AM   #5
Uncle99
Crab Free Zone
 
Uncle99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 2,672
Alk 8-9
Calcium 420-440
Magnisum 1350

These must be maintained consistently for corals and coraline algae to build (grow) at all times
Stability is the key, do not underestimate the need for accurate Magnism, if this is low then your CA and Alk will just bind up and will not be as available to the coral Skelton or coraline algae.


Uncle99 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 09:33 AM   #6
Sugar Magnolia
Registered Member
 
Sugar Magnolia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Northern VA
Posts: 17,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle99 View Post
Alk 8-9
Calcium 420-440
Magnisum 1350

These must be maintained consistently for corals and coraline algae to build (grow) at all times
Stability is the key, do not underestimate the need for accurate Magnism, if this is low then your CA and Alk will just bind up and will not be as available to the coral Skelton or coraline algae.
Yes, this. A lot of folks skip testing magnesium and end up chasing calcium and alkalinity wondering why they can't maintain stable numbers. Test and dose magnesium until you get it up around 1350 then adjust your calc and alk accordingly.


__________________
Adrienne

The only thing to fear is fear itself....and spiders.
Sugar Magnolia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 04:26 PM   #7
Twinfallz
Registered Member
 
Twinfallz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 522
IME, stability of alk, mag & cal is something to aim for but it is not important for coralline algae growth. As long as they are at least at minimum levels coralline will grow, unless PO4 is too high. This will inhibit calcification.

I didn't have a doser, alk & cal constantly up & down, yet I had coralline growing all over the place.

My bare bottom


Attached Images
File Type: jpg coralline bare bottom.jpg (63.8 KB, 50 views)
Twinfallz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 07:37 PM   #8
mtait
Registered Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 3
So it looks like my problem is very high PO4.

Calcium, Magnesium, and Alkalinity all seemed OK. Salinity at 1.24.

What I can't figure out is why my PO4 is so high. I have a protein skimmer, refugium with spaghetti algae, I do water changes, I don't think I over feed, and my fish seem healthy.

I'm wondering if my sump is actually hurting me. Can a dirty sump/refugium do more harm then good? I have a lot of detritus at the bottom of mine because the way the stand is built it can't be removed for a good cleaning. I was hoping that gunk down there wouldn't have such a big effect, but it's the only thing I can think of. Does that sound reasonable to you pros out there?

Second question, is it OK to put a bag of carbon in a filter sock in the sump? I've read that it can bleed particles into the tank that are harmful for the fish. Other than cleaning my sump, and water changes, what would be the best options for PO4 reduction?


mtait is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 07:49 PM   #9
Twinfallz
Registered Member
 
Twinfallz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtait View Post
So it looks like my problem is very high PO4.

Calcium, Magnesium, and Alkalinity all seemed OK. Salinity at 1.24.

What I can't figure out is why my PO4 is so high. I have a protein skimmer, refugium with spaghetti algae, I do water changes, I don't think I over feed, and my fish seem healthy.

I'm wondering if my sump is actually hurting me. Can a dirty sump/refugium do more harm then good? I have a lot of detritus at the bottom of mine because the way the stand is built it can't be removed for a good cleaning. I was hoping that gunk down there wouldn't have such a big effect, but it's the only thing I can think of. Does that sound reasonable to you pros out there?

Second question, is it OK to put a bag of carbon in a filter sock in the sump? I've read that it can bleed particles into the tank that are harmful for the fish. Other than cleaning my sump, and water changes, what would be the best options for PO4 reduction?
I'd ask how old you aquarium is. Young tanks can have problems with PO4 leaching out of rock untill they mature.

Use a PO4 reducing product.

Yes activated carbon in a sock is ok.


Twinfallz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/01/2018, 07:54 PM   #10
AlSimmons
Registered Member
 
AlSimmons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: California
Posts: 2,453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinfallz View Post
IME, stability of alk, mag & cal is something to aim for but it is not important for coralline algae growth. As long as they are at least at minimum levels coralline will grow, unless PO4 is too high. This will inhibit calcification.

I didn't have a doser, alk & cal constantly up & down, yet I had coralline growing all over the place.

My bare bottom
+1

Coralline algae has never been a problem for me, whether I was testing/dosing for it or not. It's just there... (blue thumb?)


AlSimmons is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/02/2018, 09:04 AM   #11
RioReefr
Registered Member
 
RioReefr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Posts: 358
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtait View Post
... my fish seem healthy.
Fish are very resilient, so that is not a good indicator of water chemistry. Unless you have a lack of oxygen in the water , most fish could probably tolerate a wide range of water parameters. Coralline algae is far less tolerant.


Get as much "gunk" out of your system as possible. Rocks, sediments, crap all contain phosphorous and will release it into your water. I read where even activated carbon (over time) can actually be detrimental to your tank because it will also leech phosphorous. If you have large rocks, they can leech phosphorous into your system for months.

If you want to lower your PO4 levels, you could try Seachem PhosGuard. Also, when I had a serious GHA breakout, I had really good success using RedSea NoPoX. Just be careful using as it and start out slow. Literally within 3-4 days, the GHA started to fade and died.

Additionally, since you have a refugium....put some Chaeto (or other form of macro-algae) in there which will suck up that PO4.

Lastly, you could send a water sample to a professional lab.... something like ATI ICP-OES Complete Saltwater Water Test Kit.


RioReefr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/04/2018, 09:47 PM   #12
WVfishguy
Registered Member
 
WVfishguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Huntington, WV
Posts: 671
No one mentioned light in this thread. Without bright light there is no coralline algae. That's the main factor in coralline.


WVfishguy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/04/2018, 10:08 PM   #13
Twinfallz
Registered Member
 
Twinfallz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by WVfishguy View Post
No one mentioned light in this thread. Without bright light there is no coralline algae. That's the main factor in coralline.
>> Bright << light isn't necessary.

I have coralline growing in areas that don't even recieve direct light.


Twinfallz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/05/2018, 12:15 AM   #14
Anemone
Cloning Around

 
Anemone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Valencia, California
Posts: 24,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtait View Post
So it looks like my problem is very high PO4.
Care to share your actual number? "Very high PO4" is often dependent on one's opinion, and it's hard to give advice on what to do without actual numbers.

Kevin


__________________
Back in the pool, swimming with the sharks...

Current Tank Info: Red Sea 425XL w/Kessil AP700, Vertex 180i Skimmer, 2 x Vortech MP40s
Anemone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/05/2018, 12:16 AM   #15
Anemone
Cloning Around

 
Anemone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Valencia, California
Posts: 24,875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinfallz View Post
>> Bright << light isn't necessary.
Yup, different colors for different lighting levels.

Kevin


__________________
Back in the pool, swimming with the sharks...

Current Tank Info: Red Sea 425XL w/Kessil AP700, Vertex 180i Skimmer, 2 x Vortech MP40s
Anemone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08/05/2018, 08:35 PM   #16
Twinfallz
Registered Member
 
Twinfallz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinfallz View Post
>> Bright << light isn't necessary.

I have coralline growing in areas that don't even recieve direct light.
Further on light for coralline -
Chapter 1
Physiological and Photomorphogenic Effects
of Light on Marine Macrophytes
1.2 Photosynthesis Under Limiting Light Conditions
Seaweeds of the order Laminariales reach their lower growth limit at about 0.6–1.2% of surface light, whereas for some deep growing rhodophytes a minimum of 0.001–0.05% was determined (L€uning 1981, 1990).
The photosynthetic rate of different Laminaria species exceeds the respiratory rate and thus the compensation point (Ec) at about 5–8 mmol m 2 s 1 , whereas in deep water red algae an irradiation of about 2 mmol m 2 s 1 is already sufficient (L€uning 1981).
Deepest crustose macroalgae seem to survive at an absolute light minimum of about 0.01 mmol m 2 s 1 (Littler et al. 1986). These red crustose corallines show a large light absorptance and employ light-harvesting pigments with a high energy-cost in their production per unit light absorption rate in a given underwater spectrum (Raven and Geider 2003).
Raven et al. (2000) outlined that it is difficult to explain growth of algae below 0.5 mmol m 2 s 1 as there are energy-consuming reactions which use an increasing fraction of energy input when photon flux density decreases. Among these processes are redox back reactions of reaction center II, the leakage of H+ through thylakoid membranes and the turnover of photosynthetic proteins. The first of the two processes limit the rate of linear electron transport and ADP phosphorylation, while the latter consumes ATP.
Thus, it is not yet clear how crustose red algae can grow down to 274-m water depth where the average incident photon flux density for 12 h day 1 does not exceed 0.02 mmol m 2 s 1 (Raven and Geider 2003).

file:///C:/Users/Steve/Downloads/9783642284502-c1.pdf


Twinfallz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/10/2019, 09:30 PM   #17
las
Registered Member
 
las's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: chicago
Posts: 1,011
Every time I’ve experienced great corralline growth was when I had lower light levels with an actinic light incorporated into the lighting system. Just my experience. I even remember reading that some people would keep the actinics on 24 hours a day to get the process really going.


las is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02/11/2019, 04:33 PM   #18
Dkuhlmann
Registered Member
 
Dkuhlmann's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: NW Iowa
Posts: 8,823
Quote:
Originally Posted by RioReefr View Post
Everything I have read/researched about Coralline Algae....is that you need to keep the water parameters as STABLE as Natural Seawater:

Salinity: 1.025-1.026
pH: 8.3
Calcium: 450
dKh: 8
Nitrates/Phosphates: as close to 0 as possible.
Lighting: preferably blue spectrum wavelength
Temperature: 80 F

Supposedly, pH and Salinity are the most important to keep very stable. Being summertime, are you are using an ATO to keep Salinity stable?

The other thing is flow and detritus buildup -- use a turkey baster or point your powerhead at the rocks containing the coralline. Detritus buildup could be suffocating it.

The likely cause is that water parameters are probably fluctuating too much.
This is the 4th post in this thread.


__________________
Previous tanks: 200 gal fowlr 9" Emperor Angel and many different butterfly fish 4" maroon clown and several other fish, 50 gal sump, 40 gal mixed reef/fish mostly softies and LPS.

Current Tank Info: 40b 750 gph 45 lbs lr, 2"-3" sand, 165w full spectrum dimable LED, 20 gal sump/refugium 30 lbs lr, Bak Pak 2 skimmer, 4" sock temp 79-80, sg 1.026, NH3 0, NO2 0, NO3 <10, ph 8.2, calc 400, mag 1300
Dkuhlmann is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:41 AM.


TapaTalk Enabled

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2019 Axivo Inc.
Use of this web site is subject to the terms and conditions described in the user agreement.
Reef CentralTM Reef Central, LLC. Copyright ©1999-2014
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.