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Old 04/26/2012, 10:27 AM   #1
fla2341
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Flame Angelfish Breeding attempt

I'm attempting to breed Flame Angelfish. I'm posting a new thread for the first time so please bear with me. I'm putting this information up so that others might gain from my experiences.

The tank I'm using is very basic. It's a 120 gallon tank I used as a sump for my larger tank I had to shut down and sell several years ago. It is divided into three parts. The left side is divided using egg crate and covered with plastic fabric with 1/8" squares. I use this section for my neon gobies and algae. It's approx 1' in lenght. The center of the tank is approx 4' and has my live rock and some corals. This section also hosts the pair of Flame Angels as well as a Royal gramma, urchin, several small starfish, 1 mexican turbo snail, spegetti worms, cryptic sponges and copepods. That's it for tank inhabitants other then the un/seldom seen. The left over is the right side and is for the overflow and the protien skimmer. The tank is 72"L x 19"D x 20"T OD.

I aquired the Angelfish in December 2011. The male is from Christmas/Marshall and the female is from Vanuatu. The male was approx 2 1/4" and the female was less then 2" when purchased. They were not a mated pair. It required only 1 week for them to sort out who's who. They started spawning in March of this year. The initial spawns were small, only 10-20 eggs each. They occured every 3-5 days and about 1/2 hr right before lights out @10pm. They would spawn in several different locations of the tank.

The spawning behavior was typical and as reported by others. The male would chase the female in and out the rock work. This happens 2-3 hours prior to the actual spawn. The activity increases the closer they get to spawning. The female will flare her fins acrost the view of the male forming a "T" infront of the spawning area. The male nudges her abdomen then they rise together 3-5 " and spawn. They will rise several times before they actually spawn. In addition to the chasing behavior they both will poke their noses out of the rock work to check out the activity in the room several times. If there is too much movement outside the immediate tank front they will dart back into the rock work and the chase will continue in the various spaces behind the scenes. This behavior was typical for the first month.

They had stopped spawning for 10 days and I wanted to see if the behavior would pick up with extended light periods. Starting the 2nd week in April they started spawning only after I had turned the lights back on after "lights out" at 10pm. They spawned 10-20 minutes right after the lights came back on. Since then the spawns have begun to occur later at 11:30pm.

The egg counts are low only 50-100 eggs per spawn. The spawning was occurring every 3-5 days with 1 or 2 occurrances of spawning 2 nights in a row. Starting this week they have spawned each night for 3 nights in a row. They have settled on 1 location of the rockwork to start their spawning behavior and rise to spawn.

They sorted out their prefefence of spawning location to the center of the tank. The fertilty of the eggs have always been 90% or better. Thus dispelling the height requirement for me previously noted for fertilization by others. The actual spawn rise is as stated before only 3-5".

I initially started to hatch the eggs in a cake pan outside the tank. I did this to document the process with photos and notes. The intial spawns would develop to the pro-larval stage but I couldn't see any development past that.

I next made a flaoting plastic container with 1/2" x 3 1/2" 120 micron windows on opposite sides to hatch them in the tank. This got them past the pro-larval stage but not past 2 days Post Hatch (further to be referred to as PH).

The next thing I did was to create a closed loop drip system using a 40 gph powerhead I hade on hand, 1/2" pvc and 1/4" 90 degree elbows and 1/4" ball valves for drip irrigation systems I got at HD. I drilled 6 holes in the pvc and inserted the 1/4" elbows. I next attached airline hose to an elbow and using a 1/4" ball valve at the end of the hose controlled the rate of tank water flowing into the floating container to several dripps per minute. This method got me to 72hrs PH and 2 larval fish complete with stomach, eyes (pigmented) and stomach.

I then made a 4 1/2" x 4 1/2" x 5" acrylic box with two "windows" of 120 micron mesh 1" x 4" right below the faom float. So far this method has resulted in 3 larval fish at 120 hrs PH.

Notes on the Pro-larval and larval fish behavior:

Upon hatching there is a noticable black line from head to tail. During the next 24hrs the black becomes more scattered over the body and the larval shape starts to form. Next the black forms into small areas on the body making sighting the larval fish very difficult. The pro-larval fish is sensitive to vibrations and intense light/shadows after 24 hrs PH and will dart around if exposed to either. I assume this is a predator evasion response. It also shows that there is some possible "sight" mechanisum after 24hrs PH. After 48hrs the eyes, scales and stomach are visible under magnification of 220x's but the eyes are unpigmented. After 72 hrs PH the eyes are fully pigmented and the pectoral fins and mouth are visible.

Size:
1 hr PH the pro-larva is 2mm in lenght.
24 hrs PH 2.25 mm approx.
48 hrs PH 2.5 mm approx.
72 hrs PH 3 mm approx. The mouth is approx 100-150 microns.

I am currently working with the past 3 spawns and the first foods. Photos to follow in my next posts.


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Old 04/26/2012, 10:35 AM   #2
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These phots are of the male and female flame angelfish, the eggs showing the oil globule, the begining of hatching and hatched pro-larva.


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Old 04/26/2012, 10:44 AM   #3
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I screwed up the order but here they are:
24 hrs PH
48 hrs PH
31 hrs PH - shows side view.
72 hrs PH
120 hrs PH

I'll post more photos later of the equipment and tank as well as any further larval developments. The longest "starvation" period of the larval survival is 9 days PH I believe. I'm at 5 days PH.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg 24 hrs post hatch 3252012.jpg (20.5 KB, 308 views)
File Type: jpg 48 hrs post hatch pro-larval development 04032012.jpg (27.3 KB, 286 views)
File Type: jpg 31 hrs post hatch pro-larval development 04022012.jpg (24.3 KB, 295 views)
File Type: jpg 72 hrs PH head, eyes and mouth.jpg (31.0 KB, 302 views)
File Type: jpg 120 hrs PH.jpg (26.8 KB, 436 views)
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Old 04/26/2012, 11:39 AM   #4
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Awesome work Fla...keep it coming


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Old 04/26/2012, 12:18 PM   #5
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These pics are kinda crappy but so is my camera sooo....

The 1st pic shows the floating hatcher I first used. I now use this for the 1st 12 hrs to sort out the viable and non viable eggs( dead eggs sink). The eggs hatch 12-15 hrs at 80-82 degrees.

2nd pic shows the "windows" in the sides of the floating hatcher.

3rd pic shows the closed loop system I use to provide some flow in the containers.

4th pic is a down shot of the inside of the acrylic floating container. The pro-larval and larval fish are difficult to impossible to spot right now. You have to use a strong flash light from the side at several different angles.

Additional note: Larval form floats in all levels of the container head down. Newly hatched pro-larva float near/at the top. The drip line provides a slow current for the larval fish. I've added algae, copepods and rotifers to the container. More on this to follow in other posts.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Floating hatcher apart.jpg (41.6 KB, 396 views)
File Type: jpg Floating Hatcher showing 120 mircon.jpg (38.3 KB, 406 views)
File Type: jpg Closed loop system.jpg (63.7 KB, 452 views)
File Type: jpg Inside Acrylic box.jpg (43.4 KB, 451 views)
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Old 04/26/2012, 12:56 PM   #6
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The first photo shows the USB microscope I got off Ebay. $23 including shipping. Your results may vary. . It's capable, according to the thumb adjustment wheel of 20x's to 230x's magnification. I have found that it's hard to do anything in between. Most of my photos are at 220x's or 20-30x's magnificaton.

The 2nd photo shows I believe Nitokra Lacustris copepod. This copepod came in as a contaminate in a rotifer order I received. Upon research I think I've identified it as Nitokra Lacustris. I know is a harpacticoid copepod as it dewells on the substrait of my culture vessels. It does not prey upon the rotifers which continue to proliferate the same culture vessels that I've been able to observe. Attempts to separate the two have proven fruitless as any ones which have been even hand sorted show up in the other culture vessel after 1 week. The nauplii is reported to be 40-50 microns and would fall within the nessasary size as a first food. I initially tried to culture Parvocalanus but the cultures crashed and burned in 1 month. These don't, they and the rotifers thrive.

Rotifer and copepod food: I use kelp meal(powder) and spray dried spirulina powder from FAF. These two are mixed 1tbs/ea into 1 ltr of ro water, shaken and refrigerated in a 2 ltr soda btl. Each mixture last 10-14 days. I feed 1/2 of the soda cap full per each glass gallon culture vessel every morning to maintain the numbers. When/if I need to increase the numbers beyond this I dump 1 gallon of copepods/rotifers into a 5 gallon bucket with salinity of 24-26ppt drop in a slow bubbling air line - no stone, and feed 3x's a day. The numbers explode in 5-7 days using this method. Each culture vessel lasts 1 month then needs to be re started.

3rd pic shows the highly technological culture method. These are 1 gallon glass pickle jars which have been sterilized with bleach and a microwave oven ( while empty). The covers are polyfill in quilt form you can get at any craft store/wally world, baby crib sized. I cut it into 5" squares and use a 1/2" cut piece of 4" pvc as the collers. I got ridged 1/4" acrylic tubing in 6' lengths from US plastics and cut it into 1' lengths. The air pump is a Fusion 700 and right now I only use 1 port, dialed way down and tied to 3ea 3way valves in series. I can run 12-14 culture vessels off just 1 port, the pump has 2, with the output dialed almost all the way down.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg USB Digital Microscope.jpg (60.2 KB, 383 views)
File Type: jpg Nitokra Lacustris Copepod 1252012.jpg (19.1 KB, 401 views)
File Type: jpg culture set up.jpg (63.3 KB, 458 views)
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Old 04/26/2012, 02:15 PM   #7
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wow

good luck mate, i is crossing fingers,toes and everything else for you


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Old 04/26/2012, 04:00 PM   #8
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This looks like a fun project. What are you doing about lighting?

Oh, and the accepted term is "DPH". Days Post Hatch. PH is already reserved. ; )


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Old 04/26/2012, 05:10 PM   #9
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DivrDwn and ziyaadb: Thank you. I'll try to keep things updated as they progress. Some days are better then others.

ClownfishSushi: Thanks for the info and interest. DPH would be ok, however I'm dealing with hours and not days right now so that might be difficult. I also believe when speaking about pH it's the lower case p followed by capitol H. I tried to use all CAPS when stating the Post Hatch Hours so as not to cause undue confusion. When things have progressed past 6 days and we are in safer teritory I'll be looking at using the DPH. Right now in their development a few hours can make a great deal of difference. Thanks again for your interest and stay tuned.

I might not be able to respond to everyone's post and I apologise in advance for that.


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Old 04/26/2012, 05:31 PM   #10
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ClownfishSushi: Lighting for my tank is well, interesting. I have two custom LED set ups I made for the main area and one I pieced together for the algae/goby side of things. I also have a "dark" side with no lights other then ambient/ spill over lighting. The dark side was on purpose as angelfish in the wild can be cryptic. They do spend a lot more time in that area then the lighted side. Also of note the area they have settled on is dead middle of the lighting/dark side. I'll see if I can't get some pics up soon on that. My tank was thrown together from what I had on hand. Money's tight/non existient right now so things are as they are - a ghetto tank. This project was only started thru help from nineball's tank contest last fall: http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2096730.

I've long envisioned doing this project. I primarily wanted to see if this could be done by me and to use as much readily available materials and equipment. I figure if I can do it at home then maybe others can as well.


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Old 04/27/2012, 10:24 AM   #11
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6 DPH. There are no physiological changes expected from this point on to the 9th day. I was able to spot 3-4 still swimming around so I'm leaving them alone in the container to see what happens for now.


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Old 04/27/2012, 12:52 PM   #12
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sweet..I had a mated pair (in 1991) and they too spawned often and just before lights out...they would spiral towards the surface together...pretty to see...the eggs were always eaten immed by the other fish...I never tried to raise them...kudos to you!! this is a cool project...good luck and please keep posting updates...I am along for the ride on this one!!


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Old 04/27/2012, 09:02 PM   #13
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Awesome work!
I read somewhere (I think it was the mbi) that a uv filter would kill of the bacteria and it would increase the hatch rate AND more larvae stay alive until they starve. Ive seen numerous accounts where people tried hydrogen peroxide, chlorine and etc but it didn't do much if anything .


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Old 04/27/2012, 11:40 PM   #14
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humaguy: I had a pair in 88-89 and they would also spawn. I always heard way back then you couldn't keep two angelfish in the same tank or they would kill each other. The big question I had was "then how do you get little angelfish?" I bought two small ones as well as 2 small keyhole (Centropyge tibicin) and put both sets in a 55 gallon tank. Ya know what happened? I got two pairs of angelfish. Both in the same tank. Together! Who knew. Stay tuned I'm sure more ups and downs and changes will follow.

Clownfishfan: I've read those (or simlar) accounts as well. I've wondered what role sunlight might play in the development. They are blasted most days with full on bright sunlight and being in the uttermost top layer of the water column they must get a LOT of UV. I'm going to think on this and if this next run goes the same way I'll try changing things to add natural sunlight into the equation. I try run at least three trials of any given method before I change things. Two of the same results can be coincidence but three can be the begining of a pattern.

Just collected a new spawn of 100+ eggs.

I also looked in on the 6 DPH and all were dead - no abnormalities.

The batches I've collected the past few nights were also all dead with the larva looking deformed with bent spines and some had bloated abdomens with what looked like double oil globules. I should have taken a pic but being tired I just washed everything with bleach and set it out to soak overnight. I hope it dosen't happen again but if it does i'll post pic so the information/pic will be out there.


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Old 04/28/2012, 10:18 AM   #15
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You could also put the eggs in a container outside and/or in front of the window to see what happenslike if you have more live longer of higher hatch rate.


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Old 04/28/2012, 02:09 PM   #16
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Clownfishfan: That's pretty much along the lines I was thinking.

Bad news update: Out of 100+ eggs only 4 developed into pro-larva. The rest either stalled in development or were infertile.

Things which changed over last clutches:

#1. We had a cold front come thru last week and the tank temp went to 79 degrees for 2 days.

#2. This is the first time they have spawned for 5 consecutive days.

I don't think the tank temp had anything to do with the quality of eggs as they have spawned before at this temp and I had 100% pro-larva develop albeit at a slower rate. This might be a factor of nutrition or of the fish themselves.

The next photos show the abnormal development. You will see aborations as well as stalled development. One photo shows a dead pink egg. I've gotten dead pink eggs before (3-4) from some previous spawns. I beleive this is just a factor of length of removal from the tank.

I'm going to stop them from spawning for a day or two and see what transpires from there. If they stop then that will give me time to address the nutrition issue before they start back up again.

Food:
400ml white shrimp - shelled, tails only
300ml RO water
50ml kelp meal
50ml spirulina powder
50ml krill meal

Pour into a blender and it produces a gell like paste. Spread it out on a cookie sheet and freeze. Cut into sheets and put into heavy duty freezer bags.

I also feed frozen mysis and live brine raised on nanno and spirulina/kelp meal.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg abnormal 1.jpg (38.6 KB, 359 views)
File Type: jpg abnormal 2.jpg (32.7 KB, 236 views)
File Type: jpg abnormal 3.jpg (27.2 KB, 196 views)
File Type: jpg abnormal 4.jpg (32.8 KB, 217 views)
File Type: jpg abnormal 5.jpg (36.6 KB, 217 views)
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Old 04/28/2012, 03:54 PM   #17
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If I had to guess I would say the problem was food related. It takes a lot of protien for the eggs and such maybe try adding more mysis and try cyclopeeze? Just a guess...

May I ask how you culture your nanno? Mine has been giving me fits lately..


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Old 04/28/2012, 05:18 PM   #18
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Clownfishfan:
Bleach out a 1 gallon glass jar overnight, rinse/dump out the water in am then put that jar in the microwave for 6 minutes.
I add the salt mix to RO water @24-26ppt. Wait til the next day then-
Slow boil it on my stovetop for 10 minutes in a glass cook pot-covered.
Once everything has cooled off I add 1/2 gallon of that water and 1/4 gallon of algae from my last batch and 2.5ml of f/2 per gallon. I have two 18" fluorescent lights on either side of the jars on for 10 hrs each day. For air I have ridged acrylic tubing - no stone - producing a bubble approx every second. The jars are covered with poly fill in the quilt form and held with 1/2" ring of 4" PVC. See pic of my set up above.
Nanno is pretty harty stuff. I've even been able to resurect from frozen. However the frozen was less then 3 months old. Anything past that seems to be hit or miss. From that it might be surmised that that might be the length it can reasonable "hold out" in the freezer before it gets compromised.


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Old 04/28/2012, 08:30 PM   #19
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Thanks!

I figured out my problem,the sg was way too low and an air vent was adjusted and was blowing cold air on them. Now that its fixed it will hopefully go back to normal...


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Old 04/28/2012, 08:31 PM   #20
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Thanks!

I figured out my problem,the sg was way too low and an air vent was adjusted and was blowing cold air on them. Now that its fixed it will hopefully go back to normal...


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Old 05/03/2012, 04:54 PM   #21
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After a 3 day break in spawning I got over 100 eggs last night and 80-90 pro-larva hatched today. I put 20 eggs into a 1 gallon glass jar with 2 ltrs of tank water which had been boiled for 6 minutes in the microwave then allowed to cool overnight. Then added enough nanno to heavy tint the water green. I also put this jar in the direct sun for 5 hours today. The pro-larva in the jar are just as active as the ones in the breeding tank holder.

I want to see if the direct sun for several hours a day changes the results.

More results to follow as they occure.


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Last edited by fla2341; 05/03/2012 at 04:55 PM. Reason: 3 days not 2 days break in spawning
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Old 05/03/2012, 04:58 PM   #22
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Interesting....
I never thought about trying different amounts of time exposure to the sun.


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Old 05/05/2012, 06:30 PM   #23
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Update: The larva in the jar are still alive and kicking. I was able to spot three floating around in there. I have no idea how many might be floating in there beyond that if any. It's difficult enough to see them in a small container but now it would be near impossible to spot them if I didn't know what to look for. I'm only going to look more intensely after the 6 DPH mark from before. All of the pro-larva in the in tank holder are dead from this same spawn after 48 hrs PH. I contine to place this jar in direct sun for 4-5 hours each day.

I had a spawn 2 nights ago of aprox 50 eggs and only 1 developed into a pro-larva. The pair seemed agitated and hurried so the male might not have gotten lined up right or something.

Last night they spawned again with approx 57 eggs and there were 44 pro-larva which developed. I however did not hatch them in the parent tank but in an external container with nanno added. The temps here are now in the mid-high 80's and in the house it's a steady 80-82 with AC.


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Old 05/05/2012, 06:49 PM   #24
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Are you going to try leaving a jar of eggs outside for full time?


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Old 05/05/2012, 08:14 PM   #25
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Subscribed. I find your efforts very exciting. Hopefully my potters angel pair will start spawning at some point. How do you retrieve the eggs from your display?


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