14K Phoenix washing out tank

[JustAClownFish]

Hey, folks I just recently switched to a MH/T5 setup and I'm not very pleased. I have two Phoenix 14k DE running on M80 HQI ballasts and they're washing everything out except the fish. I supplement with one actinic and one blue T5 HO bulb. That's not doing anything because the two MH bulbs are so strong. The 14Ks were recommended to me by other users on this and other forums for their nice blueish look. They don't look blue at all and they do not make anything but my fish pop. My question is if this is normal for MHs or did I just get the wrong bulbs? What about supplementing with LEDs? Are LEDs strong enough to compete with the MHs?

[moondoggy4]

I have had the same experience, I was looking forward to this blueish beautiful hue, it is yellow, I had my family tell me what color do they see and they said Yellow. I also have the correct ballast. The M80 and M81, so both bulbs are the same.

[JustAClownFish]

I guess I’ll have to supplement with LED. Can you post pictures of your tank?

[moondoggy4]

I took down the MH set up. try some reef brites to go with it.

[tkeracer619]

I replied to your cali thread but I may have some ballasts for you. Also, saw you posted a while ago about your red sea refractometer... not sure if you resolved it but those are terrible refractometers. They don't hold calibration long enough to put down the calibration fluid and test.

[rocklobster1]

Probably something else if I had to guess.

[JustAClownFish]

Originally Posted by tkeracer619

I replied to your cali thread but I may have some ballasts for you. Also, saw you posted a while ago about your red sea refractometer... not sure if you resolved it but those are terrible refractometers. They don't hold calibration long enough to put down the calibration fluid and test.

I didn't see your reply. What type of ballasts do you have?

Yes, I resolved it. The refractometer is far from terrible. It holds calibration just fine if calibrated with distilled water at room temperature. If the room temperature never changes, it will hold its calibration. I always test it with distilled water and it rarely is off. Only if the room temperature changes drastically (AC on vs AC off ) then I will have to recalibrate.

[tkeracer619]

Originally Posted by JustAClownFish

I didn't see your reply. What type of ballasts do you have?

Yes, I resolved it. The refractometer is far from terrible. It holds calibration just fine if calibrated with distilled water at room temperature. If the room temperature never changes, it will hold its calibration. I always test it with distilled water and it rarely is off. Only if the room temperature changes drastically (AC on vs AC off ) then I will have to recalibrate.

They were old coralvue eballasts. Ran phoenix very blue. I'm not sure if I still have them or not though. Having a hard time locating them.

[biecacka]

IMO for the bluer look you should have went with he radium or the Hamilton technology 20k
I have ran both of them and loved the look.


Corey

[Bpb]

If you came from T5HO or leds you have to honestly re-learn what CCT (kelvin) rating means. Frustrating as it may seem, MH were here first so you can’t fairly get mad at inconsistent or different appearances than what various t5 or led fixtures have trained you to think 14,000K looks like. 14,000k on an eco tech radion is bluer than most 20000K MH bulbs. The bluest you will get with a pure metal halide bulb will probably be a Hamilton 20,000k bulb on an electronic ballast. Not an m58, not an m80, and not on “hqi” or “270 watt” setting on an adjustable ballast. Electronic ballast set at 250 watts. If that’s not blue enough, halides just may not be for you. You’ll have a hard time bluing down MH bulbs with two t5’s. You’ll want 4 blue+ bulbs the length of the tank, plus a pair of higher powered blue leds like reefbrite XHO or the like. Only then will you start to make a dent.



That’s my own tank under 250 watt Hamilton 14k using m58 ballasts. Far from a deep
Blue actinic heavy fluorescent look. And this is one of the bluer 14k bulbs out there. The Ushio and some cheaper ones are much less blue than even this one. If you crave blue. Take a loss on the Phoenix bulbs. Sell your ballasts. And get 20k bulbs with electronic ballasts.


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[oreo57]

Originally Posted by Bpb

If you came from T5HO or leds you have to honestly re-learn what CCT (kelvin) rating means. Frustrating as it may seem, MH were here first so you can’t fairly get mad at inconsistent or different appearances than what various t5 or led fixtures have trained you to think 14,000K looks like. 14,000k on an eco tech radion is bluer than most 20000K MH bulbs. The bluest you will get with a pure metal halide bulb will probably be a Hamilton 20,000k bulb on an electronic ballast. Not an m58, not an m80, and not on “hqi” or “270 watt” setting on an adjustable ballast. Electronic ballast set at 250 watts. If that’s not blue enough, halides just may not be for you. You’ll have a hard time bluing down MH bulbs with two t5’s. You’ll want 4 blue+ bulbs the length of the tank, plus a pair of higher powered blue leds like reefbrite XHO or the like. Only then will you start to make a dent.


That’s my own tank under 250 watt Hamilton 14k using m58 ballasts. Far from a deep
Blue actinic heavy fluorescent look. And this is one of the bluer 14k bulbs out there. The Ushio and some cheaper ones are much less blue than even this one. If you crave blue. Take a loss on the Phoenix bulbs. Sell your ballasts. And get 20k bulbs with electronic ballasts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Mh's were NEVER consistent in color temp ratings either.

[Bpb]

Originally Posted by oreo57

Mh's were NEVER consistent in color temp ratings either.

Didn’t mean to suggest they were. I understand the process behind the kelvin labeling well enough. The people that tend to have a hangup are people wanting to go bluer and bluer. Halide kelvin ratings from bulb to bulb are wildly inconsistent. The “ problem “ has been here long before reef leds were a thing is what I am indicating.


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[JustAClownFish]

Originally Posted by Bpb

If you came from T5HO or leds you have to honestly re-learn what CCT (kelvin) rating means. Frustrating as it may seem, MH were here first so you can’t fairly get mad at inconsistent or different appearances than what various t5 or led fixtures have trained you to think 14,000K looks like. 14,000k on an eco tech radion is bluer than most 20000K MH bulbs. The bluest you will get with a pure metal halide bulb will probably be a Hamilton 20,000k bulb on an electronic ballast. Not an m58, not an m80, and not on “hqi” or “270 watt” setting on an adjustable ballast. Electronic ballast set at 250 watts. If that’s not blue enough, halides just may not be for you. You’ll have a hard time bluing down MH bulbs with two t5’s. You’ll want 4 blue+ bulbs the length of the tank, plus a pair of higher powered blue leds like reefbrite XHO or the like. Only then will you start to make a dent.



That’s my own tank under 250 watt Hamilton 14k using m58 ballasts. Far from a deep
Blue actinic heavy fluorescent look. And this is one of the bluer 14k bulbs out there. The Ushio and some cheaper ones are much less blue than even this one. If you crave blue. Take a loss on the Phoenix bulbs. Sell your ballasts. And get 20k bulbs with electronic ballasts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I don't even know what all these M numbers mean. You said you are running them on an M58 ballast. Does that mean it's an eballast? Pulse start? Probe start? Magnetic? I'm so confused.

If I posted a picture from the same angle of my tank without my T5's the picture would be yellow.

[JustAClownFish]

I found a very good explanation regarding ballasts and lamps. I'm going to post it here in case other MH noobs are reading this thread.

250-watt magnetic metal halide ballasts come in 3 types:

Probe start ANSI M58
Designed for standard North American probe start (self-starting) Single-Ended (SE) lamps.

Pulse start ANSI M138/M153
Designed for standard North American pulse start (none-self starting) Single-Ended lamps.

Pulse start/HQI ANSI M80
Designed for Double-Ended (DE) and European pulse start lamps. ANSI M80 is commonly referred to as a HQI ballast. It was intended for use with European high current operating lamps such as the HQI line of lamps from Osram.

Not many aquarium lamps are designed for use with a standard North American pulse start (ANSI M138/M153) ballast. Current Inc supplied and included 250-watt Double-Ended (DE) lamps that are designed for a pulse start ANSI M138/M153 ballast. The majority of 250-watt DE and European lamps available are designed for an ANSI M80 ballast and an ANSI M80 ballast will not overdrive these lamps. Using an ANSI M138/M153 ballast on lamps intended for use on an ANSI M80 ballast will cause the lamp to be under driven (operates lamp below wattage rating). This is because the ANSI M138/M153 ballast provides less operating lamp current to the lamp

If the M80 does not overdrive bulbs. Why according to Sanjay's testing do bulbs very from low of 269 watts to 376 watts max. Would not any value above 250 be overdriving the bulb?

Sanjay measured the input wattage draw (what the ballast, components and lamp uses together). The ballast and in some cases the other components will also use power. To know the true lamp power the wattage measurement has to be taken between the ballast and lamp. This generally requires a more complicated testing setup and different meters usually have to be used because the ballast output is distorted and because of the high open circuit voltage (up to 6000 Volts) associated with many ballasts.

The wattage varies depending on the lamp. During operation magnetic ballasts provide/limit lamp current to the lamp. The lamp is allowed to stabilize the operating voltage. This allows the lamp to be made slightly off the normal specs such as the Radium lamps which are rated above or below the standard wattage rating (depending on the lamp wattage). Any 250-watt labeled lamp may actually be rated and designed above or below that wattage. For example the Radium 250-watt lamp is designed to operate at 270-watts nominal with an ANSI M80 ballast. The lamp current for the Radium 250-watt lamp is the same as other 250-watt lamps designed for an ANSI M80 ballast but the design lamp operating voltage is higher. Many lamps are not truly rated the wattage they are labeled as.