Zinc

[dartier]

I would also like to hear more. Especially about your test local methods. I had a look at the Palintest site, and it looks like a reasonable solution for local testing. Far better than the hobby test kits that we typically are forced to rely on. Triton tests are not easy to obtain locally for me, so if you can share more details and insight about the model of photometer and what your experience about using the actual tests, that would be awesome. You mentioned the reagents were pricey, how expensive are we talking? Also what about shelflife of the reagents? Do they have long expiries?

Dennis

[blanden.adam]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

im getting that info as we speak exact model number will be posted shortly,
also i am not posting this as scientific research, you are the ones saying metals certain metals above certain measurements will kill your corals, im showing you there are exeptions, we are not some two bit operation with a couple of frag tanks in the garage we are a full blown aquaculture facility do you really think we havnt done our due diligence and had these tests confirmed......really?

at the end of the day i dont care if you believe or not, it is what it is and if you cant get your heads around it thats not my fault, tell yourselves whatever you need to justify it..... mabe one day you will be lucky enough to come across some of our frags. im sure youll be happy with them......

peace out....

You being a full blown aquaculture facility is why this is so interesting. You have the resources to do such studies in a practical sense. I dont understand why you are being so defensive -- you did say you would be publishing a peer reviewed paper on thr subject, and all of this information will be in the paper. These are the normal kinds of questions scientists would ask each other, especially with radically different results.

Do you think your pH being very high might have something to do with your results? So that while your water may have a total concentration of metals that is very high, the pH might be driving it into sequestered forms like carbonate salts?

[Enrysps]

Originally Posted by dartier

I would also like to hear more. Especially about your test local methods. I had a look at the Palintest site, and it looks like a reasonable solution for local testing. Far better than the hobby test kits that we typically are forced to rely on. Triton tests are not easy to obtain locally for me, so if you can share more details and insight about the model of photometer and what your experience about using the actual tests, that would be awesome. You mentioned the reagents were pricey, how expensive are we talking? Also what about shelflife of the reagents? Do they have long expiries?

Dennis

Dennis
I found the palintest test to be a good testing tool
I use it to test phosphate nitrates Iron zinc maganese copper calcium and alk bromine not a bad kit for $995 US i think we paid $1195

The phosphate test is really good i have compared it to salifert and hannaha

Sailfert is out by 0.08
Hannha is out by 0.04

The reason why i use this palintest because its quick and easy and dose what i need on High range

Replacement tablet not cheap
From memory 100 tables of each
P04 $186
N03 $ 289
Copper $ 119
ALK $ 89
Calcium $180
Iron $ 125
Maganese $ 299
Zinc $199
Bromide $ 79
You can get cheaper reagents that work fine with it mine are all supplied by the uni

Not the cheapest but better then most test kits out there

Rest of the test are done on 9100 and 7500 and then i use the University where i finish of my testing

Christian





Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by blanden.adam

You being a full blown aquaculture facility is why this is so interesting. You have the resources to do such studies in a practical sense. I dont understand why you are being so defensive -- you did say you would be publishing a peer reviewed paper on thr subject, and all of this information will be in the paper. These are the normal kinds of questions scientists would ask each other, especially with radically different results.

Do you think your pH being very high might have something to do with your results? So that while your water may have a total concentration of metals that is very high, the pH might be driving it into sequestered forms like carbonate salts?

I started reading his farm thread and looks like a lot of things at play. At least at the beginning of the thread they were or are also using electrolysis to force growth as well. Along with natural sun light with par numbers hitting over 2000.

[Enrysps]

Originally Posted by Enrysps

Dennis
I found the palintest test to be a good testing tool
I use it to test phosphate nitrates Iron zinc maganese copper calcium and alk bromine not a bad kit for $995 US i think we paid $1195

The phosphate test is really good i have compared it to salifert and hannaha

Sailfert is out by 0.08
Hannha is out by 0.04

The reason why i use this palintest because its quick and easy and dose what i need on High range

Replacement tablet not cheap
From memory 100 tables of each
P04 $186
N03 $ 289
Copper $ 119
ALK $ 89
Calcium $180
Iron $ 125
Maganese $ 299
Zinc $199
Bromide $ 79
You can get cheaper reagents that work fine with it mine are all supplied by the uni

Not the cheapest but better then most test kits out there

Rest of the test are done on 9100 and 7500 and then i use the University where i finish of my testing

Christian





Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef

Reagents last 12 months

Sustainable Reefs Cairns Australia.
https://m.facebook.com/sustainablereef

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

http://scu.edu.au/environment-scienc...g/index.php/83

This is who we are, i will post madel numbers of the lab testing equipment asap

Is that describing your facility or the university?

Originally Posted by Spslvr

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...K_A5xsvolUuTuw

should be sufficient

Actually, not very sufficient. Just like the palintest those are all geared toward fresh and waste waters with soil samples as well.

What is being used at the University to test your salt water? What procedures do they use? Calibration? Passes? Calibration?

How are other factors of interference ruled out?

Lots of questions.

This does not mean I am not interested at all. Further from the truth. And there's that truth word again.

There's also the fact you stepped into this thread to promote high levels of metal dosing. Metals that are known to be important but at the same time known to be lethal at elevated levels. Why would we not question everything?

With out knowing many factors of details left out I would not at all dose metals like Zinc. Others like JBNY are taking a cautious approach and dosing very little. I'm actually more interested to see more research in tanks like these where others can apply it.

Again, I do feel what you are trying to do is a very good thing for the coral propagation industry. I'm sorry I do not see how it applies to the average hobiest and could be dangerous.

[acesq]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

im not going anywhere....lol my skin is a bit thicker than that...

Of course ... Australian!

I think what you have already shown in your Farm thread is deserving of a little more respect from those questioning your methods and bona fides, but hey, its the internet. People feel free to type in tones they would never speak to your face. Skepticism is healthy and necessary, disrespect is neither.

[BlackTip]

@Spslvr
Thank you very much for sharing all of this info and experience, it is much appreciated. The crowds here are always skeptical of new methods and can be unwelcoming. Please keep posting and sharing your experiments. Your corals look amazing.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by acesq

Of course ... Australian! spin:

I think what you have already shown in your Farm thread is deserving of a little more respect from those questioning your methods and bona fides, but hey, its the internet. People feel free to type in tones they would never speak to your face. Skepticism is healthy and necessary, disrespect is neither.

Since when is asking questions disrespectful? There is not a thing I have asked that I would not ask in person. I haven't even asked very deep hard questions. So far it's just around how the testing is done.

Originally Posted by BlackTip

@Spslvr
Thank you very much for sharing all of this info and experience, it is much appreciated. The crowds here are always skeptical of new methods and can be unwelcoming. Please keep posting and sharing your experiments. Your corals look amazing.

And again I will reiterate, I feel what they are doing is important for the industry they are in. I am very interested in the results and paper that will come out. But understanding certain base parameters are important to know the accuracy of the results. The interference from other factors outside of dosing is also extremely important to know now to understand the outcomes. Then there's the how it can apply to our homes and

[disc1]

Originally Posted by acesq

I hope you don't bow out of the forum because of the rough reception you've received in this thread

He isn't being treated rough. He came with some hard to believe claims. A bunch of people who do science for a living have said, "Wow, cool. Can you show me the data and methods?" It's not that they don't think he's on the level it's just that someone trained in science doesn't just take someone else's word for a new and unexpected claim. All they are asking for is the info needed for them to make up their own minds about the experiment instead of just taking one guys word for it. That's not rough, that's science. Spslvr says this is going for peer review. If so then the reviewers will ask a lot more than this. They're not going to say, "well Spslvr really knows his stuff so we can just pass this." That's just not how it works. He's not being attached he's being asked for more evidence.

Being skeptical does not mean that I don't believe you. It doesnt mean I think you're wrong. It just means that I'd like to look at the facts, the raw facts, and make up my own mind. And anyone who is going to go through the peer review process should understand that and be very used to it. It is actually a little concerning to me that Spslvr doesn't seem to take skepticism well. Good scientists can. That's the only part of this that pushes skepticism towards doubt.

[disc1]

That's just how a good scientist works. You come up with an idea and then do everything you can to prove yourself wrong. You find everyone else you can and try to get them to prove you wrong. You find everyone you can and ask them to look over your methods and shoot holes in them for you. And then you run new experiments to try to fill those holes.

Today too much science is done the other way round. You come up with an idea and you try to prove it right. You take the data that makes it look right and focus only on that. You keep the methods secret so nobody else can shoot holes in your theory. This makes you look good, but it leads to science that ends up being overturned one day and often does a lot of damage in between.

[jason2459]

"There are many hypotheses in science which are wrong. That's perfectly all right: it's the aperture to finding out what's right. Science is a self-correcting process." ~Carl Sagan

[rtparty]

I'm sorry if this post won't add much to the topic at hand but here goes:

I know very little about chemistry and how the science works in our tanks. I know the basics that any reefer should know; Alk, Ca, Mg, salinity, nitrogen cycle, etc...but I can't explain HOW it actually all works together. If that makes sense.

So I've come to trust some people on here who are EXTREMELY knowledgeable when it comes to science. They've spent years building their reputations on here. When a LFS made some claims about his "new" product that would double your growth and make your colors better, I came here and asked these scientists if the claims even have merit. They didn't. Questions were asked and the creator of said product even came on and tried to prove his incorrect information.

Here we are now with someone claiming things that go directly against everything we've been taught. So the science peeps jump in and ask some "tough" questions. Questions that have not been answered but will be in a few months. These questions are not hard. They are not attacking questions either. They are very simple IMO and very much needed.

Here's why: there are thousands of reefers reading these forums. Reefers from all walks of life. Some will believe anything they read. Some will never believe anything they read. Some will blindly follow and others will kick and scream the whole way. Guess what happens to those that blindly follow? They come on RC in total panic mode because their tank is crashing and "they don't know why." In time we learn they followed Joe Schmoe's post about dosing product XYZ because Joe said to. They didn't care to research it and learn why they're dosing that product or what the consequences were.

All that can be avoided by asking a few "tough" questions and understanding what is happening and what to watch for. Lives can be saved.

Sorry for the lengthy post.

[acesq]

Originally Posted by disc1

He isn't being treated rough. He came with some hard to believe claims. A bunch of people who do science for a living have said, "Wow, cool. Can you show me the data and methods?" It's not that they don't think he's on the level it's just that someone trained in science doesn't just take someone else's word for a new and unexpected claim. All they are asking for is the info needed for them to make up their own minds about the experiment instead of just taking one guys word for it. That's not rough, that's science. Spslvr says this is going for peer review. If so then the reviewers will ask a lot more than this. They're not going to say, "well Spslvr really knows his stuff so we can just pass this." That's just not how it works. He's not being attached he's being asked for more evidence.

Being skeptical does not mean that I don't believe you. It doesnt mean I think you're wrong. It just means that I'd like to look at the facts, the raw facts, and make up my own mind. And anyone who is going to go through the peer review process should understand that and be very used to it. It is actually a little concerning to me that Spslvr doesn't seem to take skepticism well. Good scientists can. That's the only part of this that pushes skepticism towards doubt.

With respect (and I mean that, you know boatloads more about chemistry than I and your posts are very informative), most (all?) of the skeptics on this thread are not coral scientists. So while we as interested hobbyests, some of which are also scientists should ask probing questions and express skepticism about claims that go against what we have learned, we ought not to treat actual coral scientists with disrespect. That was my only point.

And I think Spslvr and his partner have been pretty great answering questions dripping with indignation and scorn. I'm glad their are thick skinned Aussies who are willing to keep playing.

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by acesq

With respect (and I mean that, you know boatloads more about chemistry than I and your posts are very informative), most (all?) of the skeptics on this thread are not coral scientists. So while we as interested hobbyests, some of which are also scientists should ask probing questions and express skepticism about claims that go against what we have learned, we ought not to treat actual coral scientists with disrespect. That was my only point.

And I think Spslvr and his partner have been pretty great answering questions dripping with indignation and scorn. I'm glad their are thick skinned Aussies who are willing to keep playing.

Where is the indignation and scorn? Where is the disrespect?

There's been questions. There's been personal opinions. There hasn't been complete answers. But there doesn't have to be answers right now. I would hope that the questions brought up do help make people realize that questioning is necessary and good. Research needs to be thorough or it will be misleading.

[blanden.adam]

Originally Posted by acesq

With respect (and I mean that, you know boatloads more about chemistry than I and your posts are very informative), most (all?) of the skeptics on this thread are not coral scientists. So while we as interested hobbyests, some of which are also scientists should ask probing questions and express skepticism about claims that go against what we have learned, we ought not to treat actual coral scientists with disrespect. That was my only point.

And I think Spslvr and his partner have been pretty great answering questions dripping with indignation and scorn. I'm glad their are thick skinned Aussies who are willing to keep playing.

Who is being disrespectful? Questions about methods, measurement accuracy, and expressions of skepticism aren't disrespectful. They're normal. And one doesn't need to be a coral scientist to have the right to ask such questions. All scientists from all fields answer those kinds of question about their work every time they present it. It's a routine part of the job, both in person and in print, especially when conflicting results are present.

(also, I may be mistaken, but I don't think the senior scientist supervising the experiments mentioned earlier or other scientists on the team are currently in the thread. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.)

[jason2459]

And to add, I do appreciate the fact that they are active and participating on this forum.

[SergeyL]

I still have so many questions, it is only because I am very interested in the topic of Australians, and only for this reason I ask my questions.

But after this discussion, I'm just afraid to ask something...

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by SergeyL

I still have so many questions, it is only because I am very interested in the topic of Australians, and only for this reason I ask my questions.

But after this discussion, I'm just afraid to ask something...

Never be scared to ask questions. The worst questions are those that are not asked.

[Spslvr]

woh woh fellas backup, its not worth an argument...... first let me clarify a few things..
firstly im sorry if I gave the impression im a scientist...I am not, I am just a humble coral grower.... my partner Christian is a phd student studying marine science and writing a paper on trace metal uptake in scleractinia, we are partnered with the southerbn cross university marine science department under the watchful eye of dr sander shiffer a well regarded marine scientist and published author, im sorry if I cant answer your more probing questions, in truth I don't know.....I will post the full paper in pdf on the farm thread once it is complete.

also I am not on here promoting heavy metals use please don't misrepresent what I am saying...... dosing metals can and will harm your corals.....period...I do not advocate anybody go ahead and dose anything willy nilly and without full understanding of what they are doing.... our systems do not come anywhere near that of your average home reeftank....
I suppose what we are trying to show is that MABE just mabe the never ending pursuit of ulns and chasing nsw parameters is a waste of time ond possibly counter productive, we are still in early stages and NOTHING is certain..... but metals is just a small part of the boundries we push, you saw our ph and ill give you something else in a tick....

[Spslvr]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spslvr]

Yes thats our po4 im sure now you can see a pattern emerging


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BlackTip]

@Spslvr

Thanks again. What I concluded is that you provided all-you-can-eat buffet for your corals. High phosphate, plenty of minerals and trace elements, and a lot of light. All with high PH to make it easy for the corals to uptake. Is my understanding correct?

[jason2459]

Originally Posted by Spslvr

woh woh fellas backup, its not worth an argument...... first let me clarify a few things..
firstly im sorry if I gave the impression im a scientist...I am not, I am just a humble coral grower.... my partner Christian is a phd student studying marine science and writing a paper on trace metal uptake in scleractinia, we are partnered with the southerbn cross university marine science department under the watchful eye of dr sander shiffer a well regarded marine scientist and published author, im sorry if I cant answer your more probing questions, in truth I don't know.....I will post the full paper in pdf on the farm thread once it is complete.

also I am not on here promoting heavy metals use please don't misrepresent what I am saying...... dosing metals can and will harm your corals.....period...I do not advocate anybody go ahead and dose anything willy nilly and without full understanding of what they are doing.... our systems do not come anywhere near that of your average home reeftank....
I suppose what we are trying to show is that MABE just mabe the never ending pursuit of ulns and chasing nsw parameters is a waste of time ond possibly counter productive, we are still in early stages and NOTHING is certain..... but metals is just a small part of the boundries we push, you saw our ph and ill give you something else in a tick....

Thumbs up to that.


Sorry if I missed it but where is your average temp and alk kept at?

There's a paper showing higher temps help corals deal with higher phosphates if I'm remembering right.

[Spslvr]

Originally Posted by jason2459

Thumbs up to that.


Sorry if I missed it but where is your average temp and alk kept at?

There's a paper showing higher temps help corals deal with higher phosphates if I'm remembering right.

Average temp is about 28 degrees celcius, but regularly hits 30-32 in summer its hard to keep temps down even with our cooling methods