Acro advice needed, it's just not working...

[acuario]

Hello,
My tank is two years old. Last November I gave up on carbon dosing with ZeoVit and a cyano plague. Now I have no cyano, no grass hair algae, and the coralline is starting to grow, but I still can’t keep any sps alive. I have a few palys which do fine. My sps last for about six weeks. I dip in Coral Rx. When they die, the acros first bleach at the tips, then the zooxanthellae disappear, then the corals slowly bleach throughout.
Could you please take a look at my parameters and tell me if there is too much swing, or any and all advise would be appreciated? I have not invested in a doser yet, is that what’s missing? Thank you.

In the last month:

Temp: avg. 79.46 (Apex)

pH: 7.97–8.23, average 8.08

Alkalinity (16 tests): 7.67–8.23, average 7.99 dKh

Calcium (10 tests): 360–417, average 399 ppm

Magnesium (1 test): 1410 ppm

Nitrate (14 tests): 1–10, average 6.88 ppm

Phosphate (12 tests): .01–.05, average .03 ppm

Salt (12 tests): 1.025–1.027, average 1.026

—

Tank Size: 45 gallon cube + sump with skimmer running all the time, 4 oz. of carbon in a bag resting on foam block changed monthly.

Light: Ophek Atlantik v3, using factory Color + Growth setting: 5 hrs of peak lighting per day.

Flow: Two Vortech MP40s set to anti-sync with each other, 20–40% flow.

Fish: Three fish, fed 2x daily.

Corals: Fed every other night: Reef Roids and/or Reef Chili, plus sometimes live plankton.

Water changes: 10% weekly; RODI water, 0 TDS.

Regular Dosing: AcroPower weekly; Vibrant bi-weekly; Zeo aminos, Coral Vitalizer and SpongePower daily.
Also dosing: B-Ionic 1 and 2, NeoPhos and NeoNitro when needed.

[slin1977]

I speak for myself here and my own personal rule is not to exceed 1.025 ever in salinity.
The rest of your parameters are great I would be concerned with the salinity swing if it was my set up. Good luck.

[codydemmel4]

I think everything looks good to me.

But when you say bleach from the tips, it just reminds me of what I am going through now which was a pretty big alk swing. I usually keep my alk between 7.5-8 but it swung all the up to 9.6 when i was on vacation and my brother accidentally dosed the wrong thing.

I had bleaching on the tips when I got back and now they are all slowly starting to STN and die, even the parts that I fragged. I am getting new test frags tomorrow to make sure it was just the swing, but I am 99% sure that is what it was from. So all I can say is stability is the main thing, especially alk. Are you sure you never had a pretty big alk swing at all during this time and thats what caused the bleached tips? I think the only one thing that can really cause a bleach on the tips are the lights.

[lynchmob3000]

I'd get your ca up a bit. If it's testing in at 360 that's too low and causes major issues like your seeing. Given the accuracy of test kits it could be possibly lower at times. Id be at 440 to make sure


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[lynchmob3000]

You have nutrients also so stuff like Acropower aminos coral vit also isn't so necessary. Your close to ultra low nutrients but dosing like you are so this can be an issue for a lot of sps.


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[jda]

Get a CaRx and get it set up properly. You cannot have parameters bounce all over the place and expect good results with SPS - once or twice with healthy corals will be fine, then the more that you do it the worse that they get. Stability is the #1 key.

Dosing is fine, but if you are serious about SPS you will end up with a CaRx one day, so just get one now. The CaRx will release all of the elements required to build coral skeletons and not just the big 2 or 3.

You aren't going to want to hear this, but if your tank is not going to be stable, then you are going to struggle with those panels. If everything else aok, then you can do fine with some LEDs with acropora. LED frags they never seem able to weather the bad times like other lights, IMO. They are more a fair weather light, but others will disagree. I will not buy LED SPS frags anymore if they have to be shipped - even from a good source, they suffer more than frags from other lights. If you are serious about keeping acropora, I seriously recommend that you look at some T5s or Metal Halide.

BTW - which types of SPS are you killing? If it is montis, stags, birdsnest, catspaw, etc, then that is a huge problem since these are pretty easy to keep. If it is some of the harder acorpora, then it could just be instability.

[tripdad]

Take some money and invest in some ICP testing. This will give you a better idea what's actually going on in your tank. Your dosing a lot of additives and could have a few things out of whack without knowing it. If nothing else it will help you rule out chemistry and you can concentrate on lighting, flow, etc..

[zsuman101]

do some water changes stop dosing, get a par meter . sounds like a lighting problem to me, its pretty crazy how much many reefers spend on everything , they do ok for awhile then start dosing stuff and get into sps and have trouble. theres no magic bullet. if you want sps you need access to a par meter with leds especially. if you dont invest in a par meter lose the leds and use a 6 or 8 bulb t5 fixture and go with that. ime with leds a par meter is 1st on the list of must haves. good luck zsu

[acuario]

Thank you everyone.
I usually test at the end of the day when lights are out. So there could be greater swings than I am aware of in my testing. I'm really trying to get a feel for how much things can change, if at all, and then your sps are gone? The recent sps have been a PC Rainbow acro and a Doletti Yellow acro. I haven't really tried monti or the other types, just acros. If there is a real tolerant sps acro, I am all for trying it?
I will keep salinity a bit lower, raise calcium a bit. After all this investment, sounds like I still need a PAR meter and perhaps a calcium reactor..., the lighting maybe too is part of this, but I want to have a go with this light for a bit longer. Little by little; and learning a whole bunch. Good tips, good help and advice. Thank you all.

[bif24701]

If you and when you make any changes, go slow, one at a time, wait 1-3 months for results.

[James983]

Do you have an ATO? Your salinity should be very steady for SPS to thrive.

[acuario]

Yes, I run the Genesis system for ATO and also for water changes. I don't have a salinity probe for the Apex. I have thought that my $30 refractometer might be a weak link here?

[reefmutt]

Your parameters seem fairly decent.. yes maybe ca up a touch and alk down a touch but those aren't make or break numbers..
I also agree.. with your nutrients, I don't see the use of the additives..
If it were me, I'd abandon all of your additives except the two part, obviously.
Do a couple nice big water changes
Then, really try to dose the two part in small doses,regularly to reduce any swings.
Watch where your numbers go after you have stopped all the additives because they may drop..
try not to use the neo nitro and neo phos.. they will produce nutrient swings..
Add a fish and watch the numbers.. take your time and try not to micro manage too much.. don't react after every test by changing something.. test and watch for trends in the numbers over weeks..
Dial it in slowly..
Lastly, if you can, lower the whites on your leds during the next 6 months, while you simplify and stabilize, then see where your acros are at.. and then once they look better, play with higher whites..
I know I am being a little presumptuous here, assuming you are a tinkerer and a micromanager when I don't even know you! Sorry if I'm way off base here but I just get the sense that maybe you are trying too many things at once, especially seeing where you've come from..(zeo, carbon dosing etc) and that you have all of those product on hand and in active use..
Remember, smaller volumes of water react more quickly to additive swings, so try to keep your dosing as small and regular as possible.
I certainly wouldn't argue with the ca reactor suggestion but that's a big investment for a small tank.. maybe just a doser for the two part..
Hope you have success!
Curious, were you having better acro succes before stopping carbon dosing and zeo?

[outssider]

Originally Posted by acuario

I have thought that my $30 refractometer might be a weak link here?

I hope you are calibrating with calibration fluid and not ro/distilled water. most refractometers will be off when testing salt water and calibrating with ro/distilled water.

[Lsufan]

Calibration fluid for your refractometer is a must, if u aren't using it I would get some and have it on hand. I end up having to calibrate mine once every couple months because it gets a few ppt off.

I also would stop adding so many different things to the tank. I'm not against additives like a lot of people but u are putting a bunch of stuff in the tank.

Have u ever thought about using kalk. It's not the best way to use it but I use kalk in my ato & it keeps my params very stable. I don't have to dose anything to the tank because kalk is all that's needed in my system. I use instant ocean salt so I dose a little calcium to my water change water because it has low calcium. That's all the dosing I have to do. Every system is different so it may not work the same for u but it may be worth a shot.

If that doesn't work for u or u want to stick to 2-part then I would try & get a doser.

[acuario]

Thank you all for your advice, there is much to digest and learn from here. I am so appreciative of all your help. I think I may well be reacting, or over reacting to each water parameter test.
outssider, I do use calibration fluid, about every other time I take a reading.
I find nitrates and phosphates to be the least stable for me. My tank can go from 0.03 ppm phosphates to 0.0 (Hanna ULR) in about 3 to 5 days without adding any aminos or Neo Phos. I will add a fish, maybe that will help, and incrementally less white on the leds, thanks Reefmutt Matt. To your question, I had a pocillopora do well carbon dosing, not acros, but it was the many months of daily water changes to fight cyano that got me to let go of the Zeo method.

[rovster]

Originally Posted by reefmutt

Your parameters seem fairly decent.. yes maybe ca up a touch and alk down a touch but those aren't make or break numbers..
I also agree.. with your nutrients, I don't see the use of the additives..
If it were me, I'd abandon all of your additives except the two part, obviously.
Do a couple nice big water changes
Then, really try to dose the two part in small doses,regularly to reduce any swings.
Watch where your numbers go after you have stopped all the additives because they may drop..
try not to use the neo nitro and neo phos.. they will produce nutrient swings..
Add a fish and watch the numbers.. take your time and try not to micro manage too much.. don't react after every test by changing something.. test and watch for trends in the numbers over weeks..
Dial it in slowly..
Lastly, if you can, lower the whites on your leds during the next 6 months, while you simplify and stabilize, then see where your acros are at.. and then once they look better, play with higher whites..
I know I am being a little presumptuous here, assuming you are a tinkerer and a micromanager when I don't even know you! Sorry if I'm way off base here but I just get the sense that maybe you are trying too many things at once, especially seeing where you've come from..(zeo, carbon dosing etc) and that you have all of those product on hand and in active use..
Remember, smaller volumes of water react more quickly to additive swings, so try to keep your dosing as small and regular as possible.
I certainly wouldn't argue with the ca reactor suggestion but that's a big investment for a small tank.. maybe just a doser for the two part..
Hope you have success!
Curious, were you having better acro succes before stopping carbon dosing and zeo?

I think reefmutt nailed it. I also don't see the need to pump a bunch of additives if you can't even keep corals alive. I'd consider acouple huge water changes add more fish and stop dumping stuff in there. Go all natural. Additives are not needed to keep acros they are only for tweaking healthy acros. Keeping stable good water quality is everything, as simple as it sounds is not so easy. From one tinkerers to another, just leave your tank alone!

[Piper27]

Yea great advice from reefmutt, and I also want to say ime salanity swings are not good. Especially with a smaller tank with not a lot of fish. Why is it swinging so much if you have a refractometer and ato?

[acuario]

Yes, I agree, thanks again Reefmutt, your advice is really great!
Piper27, I think the salt swing is there and it could be better and I am still learning. I'm going to start checking salinity in my salt mix bin just as often as the tank. Over the past two months, salinity for my tank was 1.025 on six occasions, 1.026 on 12 occasions, and 1.027 once. I was thinking either 1.025 or 1.026 was okay before this, but I am going to try to stay below 1.025 as slin1977 suggested here in this thread.

[LimeTwist]

i agree with everyone in here regarding nutrient. your system is small and if you're religious with your wc like you said you are, that's all you need. save your money on those additives, its unnecessary. i would removed your carbon too for that small bioload that you have. i have no experience with ophek so i cannot comment on your lighting. do one small change at a time, no good result rushing things int his hobby. good luck.

[LimeTwist]

Originally Posted by acuario

Thank you all for your advice, there is much to digest and learn from here. I am so appreciative of all your help. I think I may well be reacting, or over reacting to each water parameter test.
outssider, I do use calibration fluid, about every other time I take a reading.
I find nitrates and phosphates to be the least stable for me. My tank can go from 0.03 ppm phosphates to 0.0 (Hanna ULR) in about 3 to 5 days without adding any aminos or Neo Phos. I will add a fish, maybe that will help, and incrementally less white on the leds, thanks Reefmutt Matt. To your question, I had a pocillopora do well carbon dosing, not acros, but it was the many months of daily water changes to fight cyano that got me to let go of the Zeo method.

the par numbers is a model for us to gauge for our tank but dont go out of the way to chase after it. every tank is its own and react differently at certain levels.

[nashorn]

Get yourself a bullet proof "Green slimmer" or other easy sps to test.
I waited almost a year before my water was right to keep sps.
Once you get it to grow a base then you tank is ready.
So many things could be the cause so I would stop dosing too.

[Pife]

Originally Posted by acuario

Yes, I agree, thanks again Reefmutt, your advice is really great!
Piper27, I think the salt swing is there and it could be better and I am still learning. I'm going to start checking salinity in my salt mix bin just as often as the tank. Over the past two months, salinity for my tank was 1.025 on six occasions, 1.026 on 12 occasions, and 1.027 once. I was thinking either 1.025 or 1.026 was okay before this, but I am going to try to stay below 1.025 as slin1977 suggested here in this thread.

Most run 1.025 or 1.026. Like the ocean.