Silent and Failsafe Overflow System - Page 3

kimoyo · 02/06/2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MeuserReef
Well.... if the idea was so "revoultionary" back then and the "credit" was so important, then you (or Herbie) should have filed for a little thing called a "Patent".

I would like to thank Bean for the clear and concise breakdown of a good idea (regardless who "invented" it) for those of us NOT running this idea to ponder over. Personally, I like the idea of a DEAD SILENT overflow and, at the moment, dont have one! This thread helps to steer me torward some TESTED ways to change that.

Just to clarify this, I'm not Herbie. My username is kimoyo but I benefited from Herbie's concept and thread. Herbie came off to me as a true hobbyist, he tried to help people for free. He never mentioned patents and I have no idea why you would bring that up. On the other hand if you look at the first post in this thread you will see someone taking credit for something he didn't come up with. BTW, I really like the idea of my dead silent overflow and till this day I'm extremely happy (that's why I'm commenting on this thread) with the thread Herbie created. Herbie's idea was extremely clear and concise if you read the original thread.

pescadero · 02/06/2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kimoyo
This has to be one of the most disturbing threads I've seen in a while. Every idea in this thread was already worked out in the thread I posted from 2004. Bean even joined that discussion 3 months and 14 pages in.

Your participation in the previously existing thread has been acknowledged for the record.

Quote:

Originally posted by kimoyo
Just to clarify this, I'm not Herbie. My username is kimoyo but I benefited from Herbie's concept and thread. Herbie came off to me as a true hobbyist, he tried to help people for free. He never mentioned patents and I have no idea why you would bring that up. On the other hand if you look at the first post in this thread you will see someone taking credit for something he didn't come up with. BTW, I really like the idea of my dead silent overflow and till this day I'm extremely happy (that's why I'm commenting on this thread) with the thread Herbie created. Herbie's idea was extremely clear and concise if you read the original thread.

Having read both threads, I wonder why such a fuss is being made about who should receive credit for the modern application of a concept that dates back to Ancient Egypt.

Putting things in perspective, I think that Bean deserves commendation for his efforts. If people want to fight over who designed what, everyone should yield in giving credit to Ctesbius for the original documentation of the principle of the siphon. Everyone else's efforts in the aquarium hobby are essentially derivative works, Herbie's included.

Now that you've cited the older thread, there are a couple of ways to approach the information contained in it: One could return to the old thread that spans 3 months and 14 pages, wading through lots of posts in an effort to separate the wheat from the chaff, or one could just read Bean's thread that provides all of the requisite information in a concise, easy to read format.

Regardless of who may have originally published the concept, the fact remains that Bean did us a great service by: a) consolidating the information into a couple of easily readable posts, b) improving the design, and c) providing SOTA diagrams to make it all understandable.

IMO this is an excellent example of how cooperation works to everyone's benefit in this hobby. Someone took an existing design, improved it, and shared the information for everyone's benefit.

Who may have originally devised the information isn't as important to me as Bean's concise presentation. Bean has done a good deed. Thank you, Bean.

GuySmilie · 02/06/2008, 06:28 PM

Quote:

BTW I more than welcome the financial restitution, pm me and we can discuss an amount and where the check should be sent

OK then. PM received.
I just dropped a check in the mail to you. So go stand out by the mail box.

cartman5579 · 02/06/2008, 06:38 PM

Still looking for more clarification on the other end of this device.

Siffy · 02/06/2008, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cartman5579
Bean, quick question...

Can you explain to me what you mean when you say that the bottom of the standpipe is submerged as well as the top? Are you saying the bottom of the three drains need to be submerged in the sump?

Can you explain where you have the 3 different drains going into your sysetm?

He said his drains were submerged in his sump, but it's not a necessity. It just helps further reduce noise, splashing, and introduction of air into the water column.

cartman5579 · 02/06/2008, 06:54 PM

that doesn't make sense to me cause whenever i submerge my drain in my sump i get this terrible bubbling at the surface of the water, and where in the world do you find room in the sump for 3 seperate drainpipes? Can i connect all these into 1 drain without altering the concept?

itZme · 02/06/2008, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cartman5579
that doesn't make sense to me cause whenever i submerge my drain in my sump i get this terrible bubbling at the surface of the water,

That's because you have air being introduced into your water as it is falling byt he Standpipe you have. This method doesn't allow ANY air into the drain water therefore no bubbling. I have my 92g tank draining into my basment in-wall displays through a pair of seaswirls and you NEVER see any air bubbles coming from them. You really can't tell the water is moving in the sump unless there is something in the flow that moves. The surface is clear and you have no bubbling at all.

Give the "Herbie" thread a read and then come back and read this one. You should try it yourself or at least visit someone's tank who does it this way to judge for yourself.

Qwiv · 02/06/2008, 07:09 PM

Sorry you can't take criticism Bean, but your setup is either overkill or set-up for very high flow. I have been using a siphon with a back-up drain since my first tank in 97. Never needed all the extra junk in your design. I can see it having a purpose in a high flow situation, like your 1500 gal. but not a tank with a reasonable flow rate.

For the record, I am not mocking the siphon method. I was using it well before RC even existed. I had to because my first tank was in my bedroom in college. I am criticizing the waste of materials and cost. It is bad for the environment and shows a lack of design/expertise. For those who say it is good to over design things, let me build your next home and office building. I'll use twice the required studs, beams, paint, drywall etc. and give you 2x the bill. Lets see how you feel about an over-design then.

shyland83 · 02/06/2008, 08:14 PM

I have a similar overflow box with 4-1" drains and a lot of flow and have been fighting microbubbles. I just added a ball valve to one, and turned 2 elbows up and saw an immediate improvement in bubbles. I actually increased my flow and still have much fewer bubbles.

In the beginning he mentioned it was overkill, and that you only really need a ball valve on the one pipe.

This thread will help a lot of people in the designing of their own overflows. Let's keep things in perspective here. We are all hobbyists trying to learn from each others experience and ideas.

H20ENG · 02/06/2008, 08:42 PM

You could sit at RC all day and spew out who did what first on such and such a thread. If someone tweaks a design or happens to come up with something that has been done before, should they not share?

"a true hobbyist, he tried to help people for free" Gimme a break. That sure was malicious of Bean to post all of that info and hours worth of drawings.

I didnt see him selling the info, but posting for all to see.

Good ol Herbie. Did he post that thread before or after he invented the wheel and gravity?

Must be ream Bean week. Quiv, I saw nothing but an attack in your response.

MeuserReef · 02/06/2008, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cartman5579
Can i connect all these into 1 drain without altering the concept?

I thought the same thing, however wouldnt the joining of the siphon drain with the regular durso drain break the siphon as it would allow air to be introduced where the lines combine?

brackishdude · 02/06/2008, 09:08 PM

Wow.

This thread has degenerated into something atypical of the fish-nerd comraderie I usually see.

BeAn has been a fantastic contributor for the years I've lurked on this site. He is courteous, knowlegable, and helpful. I saw no self-agrandizment in his post, and he even cited the original herbie post in the first post. You people need to get off your high horses.

This is a straight forward explanation of a simple and effective solution to a problem we all face to some degree. How many "noisy drains, help!!" threads do you see on here a day?

If you're concerned about the environment, a few extra pieces of pvc won't change the world. Perhaps you should get out of the hobby considering the resources you "waste" and the innocent creatures you torture for your own selfish enjoyment. Not to mention the energy you wasted posting a response to this thread.

On a more topical note, yes, the end of the siphon drain (and only the siphon drain) must be submerged for greatest silence and lack of bubbles/creep. If only water (no air) is coming down the pipe, no bubbles are made if the end of the pipe is under water. Does a garden hose underwater make bubbles? Only when you first turn it on, before all of the air is pushed out. attaching another drain to the siphon will introduce air.

Clay, my sacasm radar had you pegged!

Noone could be that ignorant/rude!!

end communication

liveforphysics · 02/06/2008, 09:37 PM

QWIV- Wait until you've had a 15" diameter anemone just decide to detach sometime for no reason and inevitably end up in an overflow, completely blocking it off. I've also had an event where after floating a bunch of bags of livestock, I missed seeing on of the bags in the water. Suprize! It also ended up sucking right over the mouth of BOTH overflows, slowing both to to a trickle. The tank started to overflow just in the time I was getting aclimation tubs out of the spare room. Flooded a large amount of the volume of the sumps into the floor before I got back in the room to pull the bag off. I also had a time in a previous tank where a baseball sized zebra snail decided it would be a really great idea to try to climb over the lip of the overflow to get the algae in the inside rim. Naturally be became stuck, and was blocking off about 80% of the inlet area of the overflow.

These are the reasons why I personally love to see extra redundancy, because I know that bizzare events you wouldn't expect do happen. It's not needless overbuilding, it's called saftey redundancy, and its foolish to try to criticize it. In the datacenter here at work we have an N+4 system for critical power redundancy. Why do we need 4 extra fail-safe systems? Because we have had 2 times when even 4 redundancys was inadquate and power was still dropped.

Reguarding who used siphons first? Who gives a damn? I've seen water storage tanks at our local fish hatchery built in the 60s that use a very similar design. The point is that Bean is helping to clearly show the system to folks who many of which obviously haven't been exposed to this style of overflow. I think its completely unfounded to take any hostile or offensive postureing towards Bean for simply showing folks a clever overflow method that has been proven to work well for 50+years.

-Luke

MeuserReef · 02/06/2008, 09:59 PM

Has anyone but me noticed that BeanAnimal has "Moved On"?

brackishdude · 02/06/2008, 10:02 PM

He has taken the high road. . .

Sanjay · 02/06/2008, 10:10 PM

He has been banned from RC ?

sanjay.

MeuserReef · 02/06/2008, 10:11 PM

I always assumed that "moved on" meant that they had been banned.

H20ENG · 02/06/2008, 10:26 PM

Yes in the Solaris thread. It seems the mod thought he was "attacking" someone. I only saw him trying to get the facts straight, just like ANYwhere else where people got mad at him.

I guess attacking on this thread is OK then? Hmmf.

Well thats a fine "How do you do."

Mishap · 02/06/2008, 10:39 PM

Get outta here! Every time I had a question he always had an answer or some input.

liveforphysics · 02/06/2008, 10:44 PM

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&pagenumber=28

This page at the bottom is where he is banned by RC staff mhurley. Appearently mhurley has a poor understanding of optics. I've had extensive optics training in college, as well as laser building and much LED experience. Bean happened to be the single poster in that thread that was consistantly making posts with solid and accurate info and application of optical physics. He was the only banned member. I would have given him a medal for spending the time to be the single voice with consistantly correct information in a sea of incorrect, foolish and vicious posting.

I may also be "Moving On" from this board after seeing that level of poor staff decision making.

JCTewks · 02/06/2008, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by liveforphysics
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&pagenumber=28

This page at the bottom is where he is banned by RC staff mhurley. Appearently mhurley has a poor understanding of optics. I've had extensive optics training in college, as well as laser building and much LED experience. Bean happened to be the single poster in that thread that was consistantly making posts with solid and accurate info and application of optical physics. He was the only banned member. I would have given him a medal for spending the time to be the single voice with consistantly correct information in a sea of incorrect, foolish and vicious posting.

I may also be "Moving On" from this board after seeing that level of poor staff decision making.

I too was part of that thread and saw EXACTLY what you stated (though I don't have near the education/experience as you). Maybe several of us should go to bat for Bean

rivdog · 02/06/2008, 11:17 PM

wow, this thread has become a" trainwreck", thanks for the info bean. i found it inciteful , i will do this setep

H20ENG · 02/06/2008, 11:26 PM

Count me in.

cartman5579 · 02/06/2008, 11:33 PM

WHAT I WANT ANSWERS FROM BEAN!!!

brackishdude · 02/06/2008, 11:35 PM

After reading on page 27 BeAn's correct interpretation of the comment by the LED vendor regarding "glitter lines" and LEDs, then, in that context, reading the ensueing summary of all of BeAn's comments from the whole thread (meant to be testament of his unruly and confrontational methods, I think), I saw a clear picture of his frustration and the biases of teh vendor he was trading posts with.

02/06/2008, 07:09 PM	#58
Qwiv Persistant Perspective Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Belmont, CA Posts: 2,168	Sorry you can't take criticism Bean, but your setup is either overkill or set-up for very high flow. I have been using a siphon with a back-up drain since my first tank in 97. Never needed all the extra junk in your design. I can see it having a purpose in a high flow situation, like your 1500 gal. but not a tank with a reasonable flow rate. For the record, I am not mocking the siphon method. I was using it well before RC even existed. I had to because my first tank was in my bedroom in college. I am criticizing the waste of materials and cost. It is bad for the environment and shows a lack of design/expertise. For those who say it is good to over design things, let me build your next home and office building. I'll use twice the required studs, beams, paint, drywall etc. and give you 2x the bill. Lets see how you feel about an over-design then. __________________ If I knew keeping fish would be so hard, I would of had kids by now. Current Tank Info: 50Cube + 250DD + Nano

02/06/2008, 08:14 PM	#59
shyland83 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Oakdale, Long Island Posts: 1,550	I have a similar overflow box with 4-1" drains and a lot of flow and have been fighting microbubbles. I just added a ball valve to one, and turned 2 elbows up and saw an immediate improvement in bubbles. I actually increased my flow and still have much fewer bubbles. In the beginning he mentioned it was overkill, and that you only really need a ball valve on the one pipe. This thread will help a lot of people in the designing of their own overflows. Let's keep things in perspective here. We are all hobbyists trying to learn from each others experience and ideas. __________________ -Scott Whenever I’m about to do something, I think “would an idiot do that?” and if they would, I do not do that thing Current Tank Info: 120 gallon mixed reef

02/06/2008, 09:08 PM	#62
brackishdude Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 372	Wow. This thread has degenerated into something atypical of the fish-nerd comraderie I usually see. BeAn has been a fantastic contributor for the years I've lurked on this site. He is courteous, knowlegable, and helpful. I saw no self-agrandizment in his post, and he even cited the original herbie post in the first post. You people need to get off your high horses. This is a straight forward explanation of a simple and effective solution to a problem we all face to some degree. How many "noisy drains, help!!" threads do you see on here a day? If you're concerned about the environment, a few extra pieces of pvc won't change the world. Perhaps you should get out of the hobby considering the resources you "waste" and the innocent creatures you torture for your own selfish enjoyment. Not to mention the energy you wasted posting a response to this thread. On a more topical note, yes, the end of the siphon drain (and only the siphon drain) must be submerged for greatest silence and lack of bubbles/creep. If only water (no air) is coming down the pipe, no bubbles are made if the end of the pipe is under water. Does a garden hose underwater make bubbles? Only when you first turn it on, before all of the air is pushed out. attaching another drain to the siphon will introduce air. Clay, my sacasm radar had you pegged! Noone could be that ignorant/rude!! end communication Last edited by brackishdude; 02/06/2008 at 09:18 PM.

02/06/2008, 09:37 PM	#63
liveforphysics Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle WA Posts: 541	QWIV- Wait until you've had a 15" diameter anemone just decide to detach sometime for no reason and inevitably end up in an overflow, completely blocking it off. I've also had an event where after floating a bunch of bags of livestock, I missed seeing on of the bags in the water. Suprize! It also ended up sucking right over the mouth of BOTH overflows, slowing both to to a trickle. The tank started to overflow just in the time I was getting aclimation tubs out of the spare room. Flooded a large amount of the volume of the sumps into the floor before I got back in the room to pull the bag off. I also had a time in a previous tank where a baseball sized zebra snail decided it would be a really great idea to try to climb over the lip of the overflow to get the algae in the inside rim. Naturally be became stuck, and was blocking off about 80% of the inlet area of the overflow. These are the reasons why I personally love to see extra redundancy, because I know that bizzare events you wouldn't expect do happen. It's not needless overbuilding, it's called saftey redundancy, and its foolish to try to criticize it. In the datacenter here at work we have an N+4 system for critical power redundancy. Why do we need 4 extra fail-safe systems? Because we have had 2 times when even 4 redundancys was inadquate and power was still dropped. Reguarding who used siphons first? Who gives a damn? I've seen water storage tanks at our local fish hatchery built in the 60s that use a very similar design. The point is that Bean is helping to clearly show the system to folks who many of which obviously haven't been exposed to this style of overflow. I think its completely unfounded to take any hostile or offensive postureing towards Bean for simply showing folks a clever overflow method that has been proven to work well for 50+years. -Luke __________________ Beauty and less nagging. The all natural Viagra alternative. :) Current Tank Info: 310gal SPS and others.

02/06/2008, 09:59 PM	#64
MeuserReef Welcome to the next level Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,412	Has anyone but me noticed that BeanAnimal has "Moved On"? __________________ "Never be afraid to do something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the titanic." -Anonymous Current Tank Info: tankless

02/06/2008, 06:38 PM	#54
cartman5579 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 543	Still looking for more clarification on the other end of this device.

02/06/2008, 06:54 PM	#56
cartman5579 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 543	that doesn't make sense to me cause whenever i submerge my drain in my sump i get this terrible bubbling at the surface of the water, and where in the world do you find room in the sump for 3 seperate drainpipes? Can i connect all these into 1 drain without altering the concept?

02/06/2008, 08:42 PM	#60
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	You could sit at RC all day and spew out who did what first on such and such a thread. If someone tweaks a design or happens to come up with something that has been done before, should they not share? "a true hobbyist, he tried to help people for free" Gimme a break. That sure was malicious of Bean to post all of that info and hours worth of drawings. I didnt see him selling the info, but posting for all to see. Good ol Herbie. Did he post that thread before or after he invented the wheel and gravity? Must be ream Bean week. Quiv, I saw nothing but an attack in your response.

02/06/2008, 10:02 PM	#65
brackishdude Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 372	He has taken the high road. . .

02/06/2008, 10:10 PM	#66
Sanjay Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: State College, PA Posts: 2,302	He has been banned from RC ? sanjay.

02/06/2008, 10:11 PM	#67
MeuserReef Welcome to the next level Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,412	I always assumed that "moved on" meant that they had been banned. __________________ "Never be afraid to do something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark; professionals built the titanic." -Anonymous Current Tank Info: tankless

02/06/2008, 10:26 PM	#68
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	Yes in the Solaris thread. It seems the mod thought he was "attacking" someone. I only saw him trying to get the facts straight, just like ANYwhere else where people got mad at him. I guess attacking on this thread is OK then? Hmmf. Well thats a fine "How do you do."

02/06/2008, 10:39 PM	#69
Mishap Premium Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Eastern PA Posts: 977	Get outta here! Every time I had a question he always had an answer or some input.

02/06/2008, 10:44 PM	#70
liveforphysics Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle WA Posts: 541	http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...&pagenumber=28 This page at the bottom is where he is banned by RC staff mhurley. Appearently mhurley has a poor understanding of optics. I've had extensive optics training in college, as well as laser building and much LED experience. Bean happened to be the single poster in that thread that was consistantly making posts with solid and accurate info and application of optical physics. He was the only banned member. I would have given him a medal for spending the time to be the single voice with consistantly correct information in a sea of incorrect, foolish and vicious posting. I may also be "Moving On" from this board after seeing that level of poor staff decision making. __________________ Beauty and less nagging. The all natural Viagra alternative. :) Current Tank Info: 310gal SPS and others.

02/06/2008, 11:17 PM	#72
rivdog Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: New england Posts: 336	wow, this thread has become a" trainwreck", thanks for the info bean. i found it inciteful , i will do this setep

02/06/2008, 11:26 PM	#73
H20ENG Pro builder/aquarist hack Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: NORCAL (Vacaville, CA) Posts: 5,125	Count me in.

02/06/2008, 11:33 PM	#74
cartman5579 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 543	WHAT I WANT ANSWERS FROM BEAN!!!

02/06/2008, 11:35 PM	#75
brackishdude Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Posts: 372	After reading on page 27 BeAn's correct interpretation of the comment by the LED vendor regarding "glitter lines" and LEDs, then, in that context, reading the ensueing summary of all of BeAn's comments from the whole thread (meant to be testament of his unruly and confrontational methods, I think), I saw a clear picture of his frustration and the biases of teh vendor he was trading posts with.